Hand Combat Equal Importance to Firearm Training?

[robinkevin]

How many of you think hand combat training is just as important as firearm training?

Personally rather a person carries a firearm for self defense or not I believe some sort of hand combat training is in much need. So many times I see people that carries a firearm for self defense, takes self defense firearm classes and yet that is not only their main defense it's too often their only defense against an attacker. As firearm owners and conceal or open carriers I believe we have the responsibly to be able to judge a situation and determine if lethal or non lethal force is needed to handle the situation at hand. We should also be able to assert the degree of force needed.

I know many people may not feel this way but really I think if you disagree with this idea you need to learn to appreciate human life more. How many of you really feel that if you get caught up in a fist fight regardless of who is at fault or wrong that you should just pull your firearm and shoot the other person? I would hope no one here honestly feels that way. My feeling however is that far too many people don't have the training to do much else. Prove me wrong.

This is just something that has been on my mind for awhile so I figure I would bring it up. See how others feel and maybe if some of you don't have some sort of hand combat training that maybe you will think about the importance of it.

So what ya'll think? Is hand combat training of equal importance to firearm training?

 

[sidheshooter]

I am definitely one who thinks that empty hand/bridging/combative skills are every bit as important as shooting skills, though not for entirely altruistic reasons. One may well need those HTH skills to even be able to deploy one's firearm under pressure, period.

I'd even go so far as to say that the whole set (avoidance/verbal, HTH, less lethal, shooting skills) collectively makes up what we call "fighting skills" or, more politically, "self defense skills".

As famed trainer Michael Janich observed to a recent class on this very subject: "It's easier to turn a (HTH) fighter into a shooter, than a shooter into a fighter".

He also went on to observe, somewhat wryly, that if one has the skills to create space to use a firearm under sudden, brutal attack, then there is a decent chance that one won't even need the gun once the opportunity is there to finally get to it-a concept that makes sense to me.

YMMV, of course. That's just one opinion from a guy who values empty hand training more than the average shooter.

 

[Owen Sparks]

Hand to hand is MUCH more important. Most civilian shootings happen within 7 yards, sometimes much closer as in the Martin/Zimmerman shooting. The average healthy adult male can cover 7 yards faster than you can draw from concealment and get off a pointed shot IF he moves first. This has actually been established in court. Your first indication that you are in a fight may be when you see a blur coming at your face or find yourself on the ground wrestling. In fact one of the worst things you can do when wrestling with a skilled opponent is to put one of your hands behind your hip.

 

[oldguy870]

For hand to hand (no weapons) you need:

1. Striking skill
2. Grappling skill

Pick arts that allow you to train against a 100% resisting opponent. Avoid martial arts that claim they are sooooo deadly you can't do them full speed without permanently injuring someone.

Why?

Because, if you can't do a technique over and over on someone fully resisting your efforts, you can not trust it to work in real life. The timing, distance, window of opportunity, speed, and variations will not be fully developed on a technique only done on cooperative partners.

 

[robinkevin]

Avoid martial arts that claim they are sooooo deadly you can't do them full speed without permanently injuring someone.

Those are schools that are just too worried about people getting hurt. I have training in both Ryku Kempo and Shotokan for better part of 15 years and of the schools I have train at we only go slow till everyone understands what they are doing. Once they get the mechanics of the grapple down then you should be able to go full speed and force with no worries. The other part in which we are careful is full force body throws in which if someone is new and doesn't know how to fall without getting hurt we try to have lower ranks walk through it where as higher ranks will actually perform the throw.

Along with the striking and grappling, ground work is also as many fights end up on the ground.

 

[K1500]

They could be more important, especially if you spend large amounts of time unarmed.

They could be equally important, if you carry most of the time and/or are LE.

They could be less important, if you are elderly or disabled, hand to hand typically won't do you too much good. This is also true (but less so) for females.

In other words, the less physically capable you are of hand to hand, the less important it is. In addition, the less physically capable you are of hand to hand, the more likely you are to be selected by a criminal as a victim. Let's face it, a 6'2" 200# guy that can clearly take care of himself in a scrape is probably not the most likely attack victim.

Try to tell a person who uses a wheelchair that hand to hand is more important than shooting. It is situation specific.

 

[robinkevin]

Try to tell a person who uses a wheelchair that hand to hand is more important than shooting. It is situation specific.

Now you are going to the extreme but I get your point of view to a point. But on the same note I have known men in their 60's that can take care of themselves in hand to hand fight. Of course this too is an extreme where that person trained all their life and continue to train in old age to stay fit.

If someone is in a wheelchair I would suggest they have some good grappling if for nothing else than good weapon retention. Dustin Carter out of Ohio wrestle in high school (perhaps after) and was a quad amputee. He beat many wrestlers with all four limbs and no disabilities! Kyle Maynard has the same story.

So just cause someone is disable does not mean they can't or shouldn't have at least some hand to hand defense. What if their weapon malfunctions in a time of need?

 

[Owen Sparks]

If someone breaks into your home and you have time to grab the shotgun and take cover, hand to hand skills don't figure in to the equation. If some thug walks up behind you and grabs you in a bear hug, the fact that you are wearing a holstered pistol and have a state issued concealed carry license may not be a factor either.

LEARN HOW TO FIGHT AND GET IN SHAPE!

You never know when or where it will happen.

 

[Teachu2]

Situational awareness trumps both - but HTH is important.

 

[jeepnik]

Telling folks to learn to fight, makes good sense. When I was younger I studied Akido, really more for sport, but it was nice to have the tool on my belt.

Year later a friend got me into Kali. You'd be amazed what one can do with a short piece of "lumber".

But today, I'm a senior citizen who has had a serious back injury. My days of "hand to hand" are done. So, I take offense to youngsters who make accusatory comments like "get into shape". The reality of this world is that many folks of either sex, or any age, can have physical disabilities, that while not readily apparent, make "fighting" not only impossible by down right life threatening.

Now I'm sure I can (I still practice) whip the snot out of most empty hand technique folks when using sticks (it's a reach thing), I'm not likely to have a stick or two at hand while going about my daily business. A concealed handgun though, is pretty much always there.

 

[robMaine]

I believe hand to hand and conflict diffusion are just as important if not more then firearms skills. I am a huge advocate of BJJ and full speed training for reasons mentioned above. Mix in some Muay Thai for basic striking and you have a solid skillset. Just keep in mind if you are training for competition/MMA to train "self defense" rules every now and again. It is completely different.

 

[mljdeckard]

I agree it is important, but the truth is, I'm not very good at it. I limit most of my attention to retention skills and how to break holds. I really just want to fight my way to the gun.

 

[Texan Scott]

One of the best things I ever did for my own peace of mind and my daughter's safety was get her hooked on aikido. She's a little thing, but she can break a grown man's arm if he needs it. Also, she's SCARY with an escrima stick. She's responded with it in HD situations. If she can do it, probably most of you gents could too.

These are skills and toolsets responsible citizens should have. Teach your children to hunt and shoot, protect themselves, change flat tires, use fire extinguishers, and next time a family member asks you what you want for your b-day/ xmas/ father's day, tell them you'd like to see them get a CPR/FA card (goes well with shootings, car accidents, chicken-fried steak cardiac episodes, etc). You should teach and lead first by example.

HTH - regardless of type - teaches DISCIPLINE, promotes FITNESS, and provides continuous FOCUS and MINDSET. You don't have to be Chuck Norris (you can't be Chuck Norris), but you can be fit, calm, aware, and prepared.

 

[robinkevin]

Also, she's SCARY with an escrima stick. She's responded with it in HD situations. If she can do it, probably most of you gents could too.

Done that enough times, actually never answer a unexpected knock at the door late at night without one behind my back! Thought I was the only one that ever thought of them as a HD weapon, though for HD I still rather have a firearm as well.

 

[valnar]

I am by no means a HtH expert, but two of the best systems to look into for defensive combat are Krav Maga or Kenpo. Martial Arts street fighting puréed to the essence of what you need to know and do. Both are far more practical than Karate or Taekwondo.

 

[robinkevin]

I am by no means a HtH expert, but two of the best systems to look into for defensive combat are Krav Maga or Kenpo. Martial Arts street fighting puréed to the essence of what you need to know and do. Both are far more practical than Karate or Taekwondo.

To certain extends... Kenpo or Kempo focus a lot with strikes to soft tissue and pressure points, Karate such as Shotokan is very close to it but they don't focus so much on where to strike as just to strike. Also having done Kempo the most when I was training in Shotokan the footwork was just not very effective in my eyes compare to what I had already known. Taekwondo has some very good kicks, but on the flip side of it a lot of movement is wasted for show or flash. Rob actually has a very good mix with the BJJ and Muay Thai however Muay Thai is long and hard training as a lot of their strikes are with chins and forearms both which has too be toughen up through training. BJJ is the one martial art that I haven't really done any of but want to just to improve my ground work. But there are tons of different styles and each has pros and cons. It's always best to study different ones if you can to fill in the weak spots of each.

However even good boxing training can go a far way in self defense. Coming from a boxing family I learn to box at a young age, however grappling is a very very useful tool in defense and something that most boxers know none of.

 

[easyg]

But on the same note I have known men in their 60's that can take care of themselves in hand to hand fight. Of course this too is an extreme where that person trained all their life and continue to train in old age to stay fit.

I suspect that the thread starter is either rather young, or just not very realistic.

I don't know of any man in his 60's that can "take care of himself" in a hand-to-hand fight (no weapons), unless he is fighting a fellow senior citizen, or fighting a complete idiot.

Firearms really are the great equalizer....

Before firearms were commonly available "might made right"'; meaning he who had the might made the rules.

But with the common availability of reliable firearms, even someone as feeble as my 85 year old grandmother can easily stop any MMA cage fighter, with just a slight movement of her index finger.

 

[conw]

I suspect that the thread starter is either rather young, or just not very realistic.

I don't know of any man in his 60's that can "take care of himself" in a hand-to-hand fight (no weapons), unless he is fighting a fellow senior citizen, or fighting a complete idiot.

Firearms really are the great equalizer....

Before firearms were commonly available "might made right"'; meaning he who had the might made the rules.

But with the common availability of reliable firearms, even someone as feeble as my 85 year old grandmother can easily stop any MMA cage fighter, with just a slight movement of her index finger.

A lot of these statements aren't very realistic either unfortunately. How fast is your grandma's drawstroke versus the speed an athletic fighter could cover ground and deal a decisive blow to her?

Watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ubL1tjwhFU&nomobile=1

Guns don't equalize as much as we wish nor do bullets stop as surely.

a level of competence allowing one to stay on one's feet and prevent from getting KO'd is a good goal at any age. It is more feasible the younger one is but no less worthy a goal with age. I've trained with some 60-70 year olds who readily admit that they can't always hang with 20-30 year olds but they know better than to rely on a gun with nothing else in mind. If you shoot one person who then overpowers you unarmed and dumps you on the ground he or his friend can kick or stomp your head in even if he has 20-30 seconds of consciousness. That's a long time and feels much longer if you have NO skills to deal with that raw aggression.

Guns just put holes in things. They're great but it is dangerous to simply tell people they are an equalizer in a self defense scenario.

 

[robinkevin]

I suspect that the thread starter is either rather young, or just not very realistic.

I don't know of any man in his 60's that can "take care of himself" in a hand-to-hand fight (no weapons), unless he is fighting a fellow senior citizen, or fighting a complete idiot.

Yes I am young 26 as matter of fact, however that doesn't mean that I am sit wet behind the ears or don't know anything.

Just cause you don't know anyone that can doesn't mean that there isn't. I did state clearly that, that also was an extreme (Counter one extreme with another). The man I was actually thinking of at that time was an Sensei that taught in Newport KY, he died just a few months ago in his late 70's but man I tell you now the average 30 year old fit man with no training would not have a chance.

But please note that I am not nor will I ever say firearms don't have a place in self defense. They are actually a huge part of self defense, but at the same time I don't think every self defense situation automatically needs to be answer with lethal force. Also firearms no matter if a Glock, S&W Revolver can fail personally it is import to have some sort of defense.

 

[oldguy870]

"I don't know of any man in his 60's that can "take care of himself" in a hand-to-hand fight (no weapons), unless he is fighting a fellow senior citizen, or fighting a complete idiot.
"

This wins for the MOST uninformed statement I have seen this month. I am 50 years old. I have a black belt in Shotokan Karate and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. My fitness level is close to a 21 year old. Age has very little to do with fighting ability if a person is fit and trained properly. We have 60 year old guys that hold their own against good people less than 1/2 their age.

Age doesn't have to be a limitation.

I train Jiu Jitsu 3x a week. On the other days, I lift weights and then run 5 miles. I know plenty of 21 year olds that would puke up their dinner trying to keep up.

 

[robMaine]

To certain extends... Kenpo or Kempo focus a lot with strikes to soft tissue and pressure points, Karate such as Shotokan is very close to it but they don't focus so much on where to strike as just to strike. Also having done Kempo the most when I was training in Shotokan the footwork was just not very effective in my eyes compare to what I had already known. Taekwondo has some very good kicks, but on the flip side of it a lot of movement is wasted for show or flash. Rob actually has a very good mix with the BJJ and Muay Thai however Muay Thai is long and hard training as a lot of their strikes are with chins and forearms both which has too be toughen up through training. BJJ is the one martial art that I haven't really done any of but want to just to improve my ground work. But there are tons of different styles and each has pros and cons. It's always best to study different ones if you can to fill in the weak spots of each.

However even good boxing training can go a far way in self defense. Coming from a boxing family I learn to box at a young age, however grappling is a very very useful tool in defense and something that most boxers know none of.

You are right about Muay Thai kicks being blocked with shins and forearms, however, you would be surprised how quickly you adjust to impacts in these areas. Granted I have been training for quite a few years, but 1-2 years in it got to the point where full speed shin to shin strikes were bearable, by no means pleasant but they didn't drop me to the ground.

There are plenty of different styles, and they all have benefit. The advantage of a Muay Thai, BJJ, MMA, or American Boxing gym is that you will be sparring hard, which is key to learning how to fight.

I have seen many Blackbelts in other disciplines come in to train and be really taken aback when someone punches them square in the nose. They had thought they were "sparring" at their other gym but it was really glorified dancing. It sounds cheesy, but the rule of thumb I use, is if every now and then you aren't getting a black eye, broken nose and stitches, you haven't experienced anything like what a real fight will be.

 

[robMaine]

But with the common availability of reliable firearms, even someone as feeble as my 85 year old grandmother can easily stop any MMA cage fighter, with just a slight movement of her index finger.

This has already been touched on, but within 15 ft, this just isn't true. I will guarantee that 90% of CCW'ers out there cannot draw, get on target and fire before I double leg them and put them down and control their weapon, and I am just an amateur level fighter.

 

[robinkevin]

but the rule of thumb I use, is if every now and then you aren't getting a black eye, broken nose and stitches, you haven't experienced anything like what a real fight will be.

I agree and I am not saying anything bad about Muay Thai just that someone has to really be committed in my opinion. We actually teach to block with the chin and thigh very much like in Muay Thai but even after years it still hurts and usually end up really bruised after a good sparing night. However I have seen Muay Thai guys do breaks with chin kicks and seems unphased by it. So for the normal person just looking for some basic self defense I would suggest something which requires less conditioning. The first thing I usually teach people is grappling both as a reverse from holds and also as a counter to an attack. Most of my grappling is small circle jujitsu which is done with small quick movements and most people can perform.

 

[oldguy870]

There are plenty of different styles, and they all have benefit. The advantage of a Muay Thai, BJJ, MMA, or American Boxing gym is that you will be sparring hard, which is key to learning how to fight.

I have seen many Blackbelts in other disciplines come in to train and be really taken aback when someone punches them square in the nose. They had thought they were "sparring" at their other gym but it was really glorified dancing. It sounds cheesy, but the rule of thumb I use, is if every now and then you aren't getting a black eye, broken nose and stitches, you haven't experienced anything like what a real fight will be.

RobMaine nailed it. I would happily trade my Shotokan black belt for solid boxing or Muy Thai training. Those guys hit and get hit. Here is the most important thing you will EVER read about the martial arts:

DON'T TRUST ANY TRAINING YOU HAVE NOT REPEATEDLY DONE AGAINST A FULLY RESISTING OPPONENT.

RobMaine is also right in that a gun is not everything. Especially a handgun. Unless you hit a determined attacker in the CNS, he will probably live long enough to reach you with his fists, knife, or club. Handguns are not death rays.

 

[conw]

I think it is important to remember that the excellent systems discussed provide a foundation that lets us execute appropriate priorities and tactics but do not necessarily inculcate proper strategy. It is important to review your playbook and streamline it for SD.

But as I've said for a long time, even if all you take from that type of training is the ability to move in a fight while staying on your feet, and prevent from getting KO'd, that's as helpful as having a gun is IMO.