Handgun Ammo

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I think I may just buy it for my marlin carbine. I really do plan to get one of those. My dad has one and of all the guns he owns its probably my favorite. I just have to find a shop that wont give me crap from trying to buy a Pistol Cartridge even if it is for a rifle.
 
Be careful listening to internet forum legal advice. You do not want to break any laws when dealing with firearms. FELONY is a not a word you want to learn the hard way. When in doubt, play it safe.
 
A straw purchase is when you buy something for a person who is unable to buy it themselves.

Since an 18 year old can buy a handgun from an individual legally... then it would not be a straw purchase even if it was the day after a person of age purchased the handgun. The person of age purchasing it says "Yes" to "Am I the buyer" because they are. After purchase it's OK for them to sell it to someone else who can legally own it.
It is illegal to purchase a firearm if you intend to sell it to someone else who cannot legally purchase it. He can buy a handgun from an individual ( such as he stated form soeone who might part with one) and then his Dad can legally buy ammo for him. If he had a .357 carbine, the ammo is still pistol ammo and would be illegal for him to buy. Dad can buy it then "give it" to him. Parents have leeway. I bought a .22 rifle as gift for my 14 tear old grandson and that was perfectly legal.
 
OMG - so much misinformation on this thread. Where to begin?

RevolvingGarbage said:
Federal law says ammunition to be used in a handgun may not be purchased by anyone under 21 years of age.

Absolutely incorrect. What the Federal law says is that it is illegal for a licensed dealer to sell ammunition intended to be used in a handgun to a person under 21.

18 USC 922:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html

(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver—

(1) any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than eighteen years of age, and, if the firearm, or ammunition is other than a shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle, to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than twenty-one years of age;

That's it. Nothing more. It does NOT prohibit an 18 to 20 year old from purchasing handgun ammo. It does NOT prohibit a private party from selling/giving handgun ammo to an 18 to 20 year old.
 
washambala said:
Wow. I have honestly never heard of a straw purchase. I understand the concept but I thought it wouldnt be illegal if I could legally purchase the item anyway. It was my understanding that the FFLs couldnt sell to 18-20 year olds, not that we couldnt own them at all. Thats why I thought it might be legal. I thought that what you call a straw purchase would, in this context, apply if I wanted to get a pistol right now (still 17 and will be for a while). But thank you all for clearing that up for me before I did something stupid.

A straw purchase involves the act of Mr. Jones using Mr. Smith's money to purchase a firearm OR ammunition from a licensed dealer in order to provide a firearm OR ammunition to Mr. Smith. It does not matter if Mr. Smith is legal to own/possess/buy that firearm OR ammunition themselves. HOWEVER, the statute that is broken in a straw purchase ONLY prohibits making a false oral or written statement to a dealer. That's it.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html

(a) It shall be unlawful—
(6) for any person in connection with the acquisition or attempted acquisition of any firearm or ammunition from a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, knowingly to make any false or fictitious oral or written statement or to furnish or exhibit any false, fictitious, or misrepresented identification, intended or likely to deceive such importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector with respect to any fact material to the lawfulness of the sale or other disposition of such firearm or ammunition under the provisions of this chapter;

The straw purchase occurs when the buyer answers the question on the 4473 of "are you the actual purchaser of this firearm" with "yes". That's it. That's all.

Applying this to a handgun ammo purchase:
Let's say Mr. Smith is 18 years old. He gives Mr. Jones $20 to buy handgun ammo for him. Mr. Jones goes to WalMart and at the cash register is asked "is this for a handgun or rifle". Mr. Jones says, "Handgun". Clerk looks at Mr. Jones ID and Mr. Jones is 25 years old. Mr. Jones takes the purchased ammo, walks into the parking and gives Mr. Smith the ammo. No law is broken because no false oral or written statement was made to the dealer because the dealer never asked, "Are you the actual purchaser of this ammunition?"

It is perfectly legal to provide an 18 to 20 year old with handgun ammunition in most states.
 
RevolvingGarbage said:
Ammo is not federally controlled the way firearms are.

Again, completely false information.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html

Almost every single provision in 18 USC 922 that applies to firearms specifically has "or ammunition" right next to firearm. Just two very relevant examples:

(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver—

(1) any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than eighteen years of age, and, if the firearm, or ammunition is other than a shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle, to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than twenty-one years of age;

and
(a) It shall be unlawful—
(6) for any person in connection with the acquisition or attempted acquisition of any firearm or ammunition from a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, knowingly to make any false or fictitious oral or written statement or to furnish or exhibit any false, fictitious, or misrepresented identification, intended or likely to deceive such importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector with respect to any fact material to the lawfulness of the sale or other disposition of such firearm or ammunition under the provisions of this chapter;
 
RevolvingGarbage said:
You can have someone buy it using your cash with the intent to hand it right over to you. Most dealers think this is illegal but in fact it is not.

It could be a Federal felony IF a false oral or written statement was made to the dealer! See 18 USC 922 (a)(6) above!
 
Texas Gun Person said:
A straw purchase is when you buy something for a person who is unable to buy it themselves.

Since an 18 year old can buy a handgun from an individual legally... then it would not be a straw purchase even if it was the day after a person of age purchased the handgun. The person of age purchasing it says "Yes" to "Am I the buyer" because they are. After purchase it's OK for them to sell it to someone else who can legally own it.

That all depends upon intent. If Mr. Jones buys a gun KNOWING that he is going to get paid by Mr. Smith for providing that gun to Mr. Smith, it is a straw purchase regardless of Mr. Smith is the chief of police or the president of the US. The lawfulness of the final person receiving the gun has no bearing on if a straw purchase occurs or not. If Mr. Jones buys the gun with his own money for the purpose of his own private use and then sells it to Mr. Smith, that is perfectly legal. However, in our scenario Mr. Jones and Mr. Smith both commit felonies because the intent right from the beginning was for Mr. Jones to get money from Mr. Smith in order for Mr. Smith to obtain the gun from the dealer using Mr. Jones as the strawman.

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

Page 165:

15. STRAW PURCHASES

Questions have arisen concerning the
lawfulness of firearms purchases from
licensees by persons who use a "straw
purchaser" (another person) to acquire
the firearms. Specifically, the actual
buyer uses the straw purchaser to execute
the Form 4473 purporting to show
that the straw purchaser is the actual
purchaser of the firearm. In some instances,
a straw purchaser is used because
the actual purchaser is prohibited
from acquiring the firearm. That is to
say, the actual purchaser is a felon or is
within one of the other prohibited categories
of persons who may not lawfully
acquire firearms or is a resident of a
State other than that in which the licensee's
business premises is located.

Because of his or her disability, the person
uses a straw purchaser who is not
prohibited from purchasing a firearm
from the licensee. In other instances,
neither the straw purchaser nor the actual
purchaser is prohibited from acquiring
the firearm.

In both instances, the straw purchaser
violates Federal law by making
false statements on Form 4473 to the
licensee with respect to the identity of
the actual purchaser of the firearm, as
well as the actual purchaser's residence
address and date of birth. The actual
purchaser who utilized the straw purchaser
to acquire a firearm has unlawfully
aided and abetted or caused the
making of the false statements. The
licensee selling the firearm under these
circumstances also violates Federal law
if the licensee is aware of the false
statements on the form. It is immaterial
that the actual purchaser and the straw
purchaser are residents of the State in
which the licensee's business premises
is located, are not prohibited from receiving
or possessing firearms, and
could have lawfully purchased firearms
from the licensee.


An example of an illegal straw purchase
is as follows: Mr. Smith asks Mr.
Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr.
Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the
money for the firearm. If Mr. Jones fills
out Form 4473, he violates the law by
falsely stating that he is the actual buyer
of the firearm. Mr. Smith also violates
the law because he has unlawfully aided
and abetted or caused the making of
false statements on the form.

Where a person purchases a firearm
with the intent of making a gift of the
firearm to another person, the person
making the purchase is indeed the true
purchaser. There is no straw purchaser
in these instances. In the above example,
if Mr. Jones had bought a firearm
with his own money to give to Mr. Smith
as a birthday present, Mr. Jones could
lawfully have completed Form 4473.

The use of gift certificates would also
not fall within the category of straw purchases.
The person redeeming the gift
certificate would be the actual purchaser
of the firearm and would be properly
reflected as such in the dealer's records.
 
o unforgiven o said:
it can be a gift from your parents

In most states, gifts are not limited to parents. Gifts are only limited by Federal law to same state residents without going through an FFL, regardless of family relationship or not.

o Unforgiven o said:
As far as ammo, no problems having someone buy it for you.

So long as no false oral or written statements are made to a licensed dealer in the process.
 
RevolvingGarbage said:
Yes, but there is no "straw purchase" with ammo. Its federally "regulated" not "controlled" as serial numbered firearms are.

1. There certainly is straw purchase regarding ammunition. See 18 USC 922 (a)(6) quoted above.

2. *** is the difference between "regulated" and "controlled?" Violate the statute and you risk going to Federal prison. Bubba your cell mate is going to care if you got popped illegally obtaining a "regulated" item or a "controlled" item.
 
RevolvingGarbage said:
Yes. You can send someone to Walmart to buy ammo to give to you, this in not technically illeagal. If you sent someone to a gun shop to buy a gun for you in the same way, you would be participating in a criminal straw purchase.

Again, what is the difference? Both WalMart AND the local gun shop are LICENSED DEALERS! Where is the exception in Federal law for WalMart?!? They ain't that big and powerful to have their own exception in Federal firearms laws.
RevolvingGarbage said:
However the line between legitimate private sale and straw purchase can be very thin. Its about the intent. If someone buys a firearm with the sole intent being to transfer the gun directly to another person afterwards, thats a straw purchase. If however you bought a gun, walked outside and some dude asked to buy the gun from you (lets say you paid $500 and he says hell give you $700 cash), and you agreed, that would not be a straw purchase in the legal sense. I would be very very suspicious of it, but it would not be illegal.

So far that is about the only thing you have posted that is correct.
 
turbojohn41 said:
When you are 18 go buy .357 ammo for your Marlin 1894. Thats all anyone needs to know.

But if you lie about it to a licensed dealer, you are committing a Felony regardless of who knows about it.
 
NMPOPS said:
If he had a .357 carbine, the ammo is still pistol ammo and would be illegal for him to buy.

More misinformation.

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

Page 182:

(F7) May a licensee sell interchangeable
ammunition such as
.22 cal. rimfire to a person less
than 21 years old?

Yes, provided the buyer is 18 years
of age or older, and the dealer is satisfied
that it is for use in a rifle. If the
ammunition is intended for use in a
handgun, the 21 year old minimum
age requirement is applicable.

The age limit for the sale of the ammo depends ENTIRELY upon the INTENDED USE of the ammo NOT the caliber of the ammo.
 
To the OP:

1. It is legal for any other Arizona resident (so long as they are not an FFL) to sell you or give you a handgun once you are 18 (and provided not a felon, etc...)

2. It is ILLEGAL for anyone to purchase a gun from a licensed dealer with the specific intent of providing that gun to you for compensation, regardless of whether or not you could purchase or possess that gun yourself.

3. It is legal for anyone who is not a licensed dealer to give you or sell you ammo intended for use in a handgun once you turn 18 (and provided not a felon, etc....)

5. It is actually legal for someone to purchase ammo intended for use in a handgun with the specific intent of providing it to you for compensation provided they make no false written or oral statements to the dealer.

6. It is illegal for you to purchase ammunition from a licensed dealer that you intend to use in a handgun by lying to the dealer and telling them you intend to use the ammo in a carbine.

18 USC 922 (a)(6) and (b)(1) are your key statutes.
Hawaiian said:
Be careful listening to internet forum legal advice. You do not want to break any laws when dealing with firearms. FELONY is a not a word you want to learn the hard way. When in doubt, play it safe.

This is undoubtedly the most wise, sound and accurate statement in this whole thread!
 
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