Handgun shipping. A confusing PITA

[Zundfolge]

Yeah, I know ... this dead horse back for another round of beating?

So I've got a handgun up for sale here (and I've posted it on other forums as well).

There has been a lot of discussion over shipping costs and the legalities of shipping a handgun.

I've always been told that it is illegal for a non-ffl to ship a handgun via US Postal Service. Period. So we're stuck shipping via UPS and FedEx (as they are the only carriers that will ship a handgun at all ... DHL won't) and it is the company policy of both that handguns must be shipped by air.

On another forum, someone sent me the following link which claims that there IS a way for us serfs to ship HANDGUNS via USPS Priority Mail (for only about $12). My gut tells me this is dead wrong, but I'd like for some of the legal beagles here to look over this and tell me not only that I am correct and they are wrong, but WHY they are wrong (bonus points for links to law and/or postal code).

Please note that I'd really really love to be wrong.

Source

*IMPORTANT ALERT*
STOP GETTING RIPPED OFF EVERY TIME YOU TRY TO SHIP A HANDGUN​

SPECIAL NOTE: JUST SO YOU FOLKS OUT THERE THAT HAVE BENEFITED FROM THIS ALERT I WOULD LIKE TO LET YOU KNOW THAT THIS INFORMATION HAS CAUSED QUITE AN UP ROAR WITH THOSE COMPANIES THAT HAVE BEEN RIPPING YOU OFF FOR YEARS. THE DELUGE OF HATE EMAIL AND TELEPHONE CALLS HAS BEEN OVERWHELMING. EXCUSES RANGING FROM I AM CRAZY TO WHAT I HAVE WRITTEN BELOW IS AGAINST THE LAW TO EVERY OTHER EXCUSE IMAGINABLE.. I GUESS I STRUCK A NERVE WHEREBY THESE DISREPUTABLE PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN POCKETING YOUR HARD EARNED MONEY OFF OF YOUR "SHIPPING PRICING" THAT YOU HAVE BEEN CHARGED DEFINITELY DON'T LIKE WHAT YOU ARE BEING TOLD ON THIS PAGE, NEAL SEAMAN.

I am so sick and tired of hearing about people that are forced to pay high rates in shipping a handgun interstate or intrastate. Forcing to have people use FedEx or UPS with their anti-gun shipping rates for overnight is wrong. If you are shipping a handgun to a dealer, gunsmith, or manufacturer here is what you can do to save money and be within the law (the same is applicable for long guns, machine guns, or anything else that goes bang).

Step 1
1. You go to the post office and pick up a flat rate box (which cost nothing and is supplied by the post office). If it doesn't fit in a flat rate box then ask for a priority box which is a little larger and will accommodate all handgun sizes. If that size doesn't work for you just put the weapon in a regular brown box and then you can ship that box anywhere from parcel post to express. Needless to say most long guns, machine guns, etc. will not fit in a flat rate box so you have to get a regular brown box for shipping. But that choice will be yours not dictated by some anti-gun shipping company. Let me reiterate that all applicable information given here is also good for a long gun of any type, machine gun, etc.

2. You place said handgun inside of the box and seal the box up.

3. You go back to the post office and you insure the shipping box for the value of the weapon and you also get a confirmation receipt (this receipt must be signed by the entity receiving the weapon upon delivery and that entity must be 21 years or older.

4. When the postal clerk asks you is there anything hazardous inside, etc. the answer is NO. Most clerks do not know their butt from their elbows. Don't waste your time trying to explain the laws to them just get your transaction done as fast as you can so you can go about your business and have your weapon sent on its way.

5. If you are dealing with a dealer, gunsmith, or manufacturer who insists that it is the law that such weapons are to be sent overnight via UPS or FedEx tell them to brush up on the laws because they don't know what the hell they are talking about. There is no law in place that states one must send a handgun or any other weaponry overnight, much less through UPS or FedEx. In fact the law is very specific in your favor as a regular person shipping a firearm. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, Firearms Regulation Reference Guide, Section 478.147 specifically states (this information can also be verified by calling any BATF office),

"A person not otherwise prohibited by Federal, State or local law may ship a firearm to a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer for any lawful purpose, and not with standing any other provision of this part, the licensed manufacturer, licensed importer, or licensed dealer may return in interstate or foreign commerce to that person the firearm or a replacement firearm of the same kind and type. A person not otherwise prohibited by Federal, State or local law may ship a firearm curio or relic to a license collector for any lawful purpose, and notwithstanding any other provision of this part, the license collector may return the interstate or foreign commerce to that person the firearm curio or relic."

Now folks if you cannot read between the lines as to what I am trying to get across to you stop being victims of companies or FFL's (federal firearms licensees) who are either to stupid to know the law or are just willing to spend your money in unnecessary shipping charges. CALL THEM OUT ON IT BY LAW YOU DO NOT HAVE TO USE UPS OR FedEx AND PAY THEIR HIGHWAY ROBBERY RATES. STOP BEING ABUSED YOU NOW HAVE THE LAW IN BLACK AND WHITE AS STATED ABOVE) AND IT IS IRREFUTABLE, NEAL

IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE WHAT IS WRITTEN HERE PLEASE CALL YOUR LOCAL BATF OFFICE AND GET A CONFIRMATION THAT A REGULAR CITIZEN, UNLESS THERE ARE EXTENUATING CIRCUMSTANCE, CAN SHIP VIA THE POST OFFICE ALL THE WEAPONRY MENTIONED ABOVE, LEGALLY.

And if the information presented above is not good enough for you then "Firearms Law Administered by the Postal Service, Title 18, United States Code, Chapter 83 and I quote, "Such articles also may be conveyed in the mails to Manufacturers of firearms or bonafide dealers therein customary trade shipments, including such articles for repair or replacement of parts, from one to the other under such regulations as the Postal Service shall prescribe." END OF STORY NEAL

Ok kids, lets see you tear this one apart (or better yet, confirm it).

 

[brickeyee]

(B7) May a nonlicensee ship a firearm through the U.S. Postal Service?[Back]

A nonlicensee may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed resident of another State. A nonlicensee may mail a shotgun or rifle to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. The Postal Service recommends that long guns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms. Handguns are not mailable. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun.

[18 U.S.C. 1715, 922(a)(3), 922(a)(5) and 922 (a)(2)(A)]

ONLY an FFL may use the US Postal Service to ship a handgun to ANOTHER FFL.

 

[GeorgeR]

USPS Handgun Shipments

Here's where I think the confusion arrives...ATF does not prohibit FFLs from shipping handguns by USPS. USPS prohibits it. USPS publication 52 is very specific that only FFLs can ship hanguns, and only to other FFLs. There are a few exceptions, such as LE duty guns. I ship hanguns all the time, and believe me, you don't want to mess with USPS inspectors. Obey the law. Do the legal thing. Bite the bullet, ship FedEx or UPS the way FedEx and UPS want you to. You might get away with USPS non FFL shipments, but it really is breaking a Federal law. Also, don't get cute and ship a hangun broken down USPS.

 

[Mojo-jo-jo]

The advice the OP has received is absolutely incorrect.

GeorgeR is correct. The ATF does not regulate shipping. However, the DOT and U.S. Congress (through U.S.C. Title 49) does.

Basically, the USPS has defined firearms as "Restricted Matter," with rules similar to shipping chemicals, toxic substances, etc. These provisions are outlined in "USPS Publication 52 - Hazardous, Restricted, and Perishable Mail."

USPS Publication 52 section 432.1(a) clearly states "Pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed on the person (referred to as "handguns") are nonmailable in the domestic mail, except as permitted in Exhibit 432.1 and DMM 601.11.1."

If you refer to Exhibit 432.1, you will see the exceptions are only for FFL-FFL shipments, LE and government agencies, military official business, etc.

Violation of this comes under U.S.C. Title 49, which deals with transportation of hazardous and other restricted materials. A accidental violation will cost you up to $10,000 per violation. Willful violation will cost you up to $25,000 and 5 years imprisonment. It's the same penalties for shipping undeclared nuclear materials or toxic waste through the mail.

 

[Gator]

Your source is full of s*!t.

"Whoever knowingly deposits for mailing or delivery, or knowingly causes to be delivered by mail according to the direction thereon, or at any place to which it is directed to be delivered by the person to whom it is addressed, any pistol, revolver, or firearm declared nonmailable by this section, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both."

18 U.S.C. Section 1715

 

[Coltdriver]

All that being the case....

It is frequently less expensive to have your FFL ship the pistol via USPS for you.

Mine charges $20 and the freight is always under $10 from the Post Office. I get 2 or three day delivery and under $30 every time. Beats the pants off of FEDEX and UPS who are frequently into the $50 range to ship just a pistol.

It is perfectly legal for a mere citizen to ship a rifle via USPS to an FFL and this too is always cheaper than FEDEX or UPS.

And I will just chime in, the advice in the earlier post that a mere citizen can ship a handgun via USPS without an FFL license is flat wrong and is in fact illegal. It is also illegal to ship a frame without the FFL license. So the other myth that you can take the pistol apart and ship in two boxes is also wrong. Gun parts, yes. Frame with serial number, no.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

On another forum, someone sent me the following link which claims that there IS a way for us serfs to ship HANDGUNS via USPS Priority Mail (for only about $12).

There is, but not that. FFL holders are allowed to use the mail to ship to other FFLS. So you pay the cost of the postage and a few extra bucks for him to do it.

 

[71Commander]

I've heard, but can't confirm just yet, that UPS has changed their policy within the past few weeks that they will not accept handguns from any non ffl holder.

 

[Zundfolge]

I've heard, but can't confirm just yet, that UPS has changed their policy within the past few weeks that they will not accept handguns from any non ffl holder.

Well the Kahr sold, so I'll be finding out soon (but there's always rumors like that floating around and they haven't updated their web site to reflect the new policy).

 

[American_Pit_Bull]

I've heard, but can't confirm just yet, that UPS has changed their policy within the past few weeks that they will not accept handguns from any non ffl holder.

Any time UPS or FedEx changes their policies they immediately update their websites. I was told this by the corporate offices when inquiring about policy changes in the past. They have to do this to limit their liability.

UPS Policies..

 

[NavyLCDR]

From the ATF

Regarding the advice in the OP by that, maybe former, FFL holder. I can't believe they would post something like that, especially being a NFA Class III licensee. They are idiots. Here is the reply I received from the BATF (the dashes are mine for privacy purposes):

LT ------------:



Thank you for your recent e-mail correspondence to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). We would also like to thank you for the information you provided regarding “D--d B--g G--s & A--------s”. We appreciate the time you took to notify ATF of this misinformation being disseminated by this individual. We will take further steps to advise them of the proper procedures for the mailing of handguns.



Thank you,



Firearms Programs Division



Barbara A. -------

Industry Operations Investigator

1801 Stanley Road, Suite 300

Greensboro, NC 27407

 

[Zundfolge]

I've heard, but can't confirm just yet, that UPS has changed their policy within the past few weeks that they will not accept handguns from any non ffl holder.

There was no problem accepting a handgun from me (a non FFL type person) when I shipped the Kahr.

Only downside was I wasn't able to ship it 2nd Day Air, so it cost $57 instead of the $25 I was hoping to get away with

NavyLT, I figured they were not only wrong, but monumentally stupid as well. Lets hope he doesn't have a kitten around the shop when F-Troop shows up to "advise them of the proper procedures for the mailing of handguns."

 

[deanodog]

So can us non-FFLs mail a blackpowder revolver through usps?

 

[Zundfolge]

If you look at the postal regs Mojo-jo-jo posted (in particular here http://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c4_003.html#NL508_15 )

it looks like no, they don't make the same distinction between black powder and cartridge firearms like the BATF do. In fact it appears they include airguns under the heading of "firearm" as well.

 

[NavyLCDR]

I got lucky, when I shipped a T/C back to Thompson for repairs, I took it to Fedex/Kinkos. I told the clerk it was a handgun being sent in for repair. He opened the package, looked at it, didn't touch it, sealed it back up. Then he asks me "Ground or Air"? I about choked, but very carefully kept my composure and replied, Ground, I guess! Cost me $12 instead of the $57 I had planned on and everything went just fine - got it back, in two seperate packages, delivered to my door

For clarification: I did not break any LAWS, only FEDEX policy, and, even though it would not have held up if I had a claim against FEDEX for the gun, it was the clerk who did it knowing what it was because he saw it in the package! But I know, if FEDEX had lost it, I would not have gotten anything back from them.

 

[NavyLCDR]

it looks like c. Unloaded antique firearms sent as curios or museum pieces are generally permitted, as specified in Exhibit 432.1 and DMM 601.11.2.

I think the BP Revolver would have to be an original, C&R antique to fit this. I don't think it would work for a manufactured replica. I am only guessing.

 

[Zundfolge]

NavyLT, taking it to a Fedex/Kinkos location was also a violation of FedEx policy (which is probably why you got away with ground as the Kinkos guy wasn't fully trained) both FedEx and UPS require you to bring handguns to a "central office" (which in most cases you'd be better off anyway as the CO people are better trained).

As for shipping a BP Revolver I still think being a "Pistol, revolver, or other firearms capable of being concealed on the person" would trump the BP status, but thats kind of a gray area (especially since they made a special line item exempting antique firearms ... which by my definition would also include original Colt SSAs even though they're cartridge fired and not BP)

 

[NavyLCDR]

NavyLT, taking it to a Fedex/Kinkos location was also a violation of FedEx policy (which is probably why you got away with ground as the Kinkos guy wasn't fully trained) both FedEx and UPS require you to bring handguns to a "central office" (which in most cases you'd be better off anyway as the CO people are better trained).

Not true at all. I called FEDEX Corporate office prior to the shipment. They told me that FEDEX/Kinkos is owned by FEDEX and that they are fully authorized to receive handguns. The guy behind the shipping counter at FEDEX/Kinkos is a full fledged, bona-fide FEDEX employee.

 

[NavyLCDR]

It is interesting to note, reading FEDEX Tarriff, that they will not accept ORM-D (ammunition) at FEDEX/Kinkos. But legal firearms shipments are good to go there.

 

[deanodog]

I have been shipping orm-d marked small arm ammo at UPS but I had to get the clerk to call their haz-mat help desk. After that .o k. The help desk said anything less than 50 cal.

 

[Zundfolge]

hey told me that FEDEX/Kinkos is owned by FEDEX and that they are fully authorized to receive handguns.

Ah, I'm thinking UPS/Mailboxes Etc. locations.

I've found that UPS is cheaper than FedEx, but there's a FedEx/Kinkos right up the street from where I work so it might be worth a few extra bucks to not have to drive clear across town to the UPS central office.

 

[F4GIB]

"But I know, if FEDEX had lost it, I would not have gotten anything back from them."

But that's true in all cases. ;-)

 

[Mojo-jo-jo]

Tip: If shipping a handgun with UPS, use "Next Day Air Saver." It's still next day, but afternoon delivery and will save you ~$15 off of the regular next day air price. They have shipped handguns this way for me without any problem.

 

[trailgator]

It's confusing. I had a good deal on buying a Redhawk fall through due to confusion about shipping. :banghead:

 

[Zundfolge]

I had two deals on the Kahr fall apart over shipping ... and the deal that finally stuck I got dinged on shipping because I thought I could ship it 2nd day air.

Anyway, next time I sell a handgun I'm going to mark the gun up $60 and then tell people I'm shipping it for free.