Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness

[CTI1USNRET]

I post this every couple years.

If anyone knows of a more recent study, let me know.

This is still a 'must read' if you carry.

Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness
http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm

 

[Shadow 7D]

NO not again

NOOOO
on so why are you trying to bring this up, 3 Wounding factor, M-S 'one stops' etc. threads just died last week:banghead:

Like real estate
PLACEMENT PLACEMENT PLACEMENT

and use a quality round that penetrates adequately in the caliber of your flavor

A bullet is only as effective as your placement
I can place a Glaser safety slug with 3" of penetration and kill you
or a Browning .50

edit, wait this is the FBI study that says the above

 

[jon_in_wv]

Really, Everyone would be much better served by more threads on marksmanship and less on bullets.

 

[hso]

Nope, nothing new out.

 

[CTI1USNRET]

I don't read every thread here. I have a life. To the people who complain about the repetition found here ... hmmmm, I don't know .... maybe ... you could just move on to the next thread.

Besides, everything that's been posted here about accuracy and projectiles evolved from the FBI study.

 

[McCall911]

I don't know if you've seen it, but there's this from our own Zak Smith.

http://demigodllc.com/~zak/firearms/fbi-pistol.php

 

[Jackal1]

That whole document sums up to the below statement:

Handgun bullets don't stop people unless they get hit in the central nervous system. The more bullets you hit the bad guy with, and the bigger those bullets are, will tend to make them lose consciousness quicker due to blood loss.

end of discussion.

 

[Old Fuff]

What is often forgotten is that the legal use of deadly force usually requires that one be under attack, with the probable likelihood of serious injury or death - in other words the bad guy gets to start first and open the ball with the good guy being in a reactive position.

When that's the case, the good guy's life depends on stopping the ongoing attack as quickly as possible. To do that bullet placement becomes the most important factor, followed by bullet diameter and velocity, with design being last. To damage or destroy a vital organ you have to hit it first.

 

[fastbolt]

Another interesting , older article, One-Shot Drops Surviving the Myth
By ANTHONY J. PINIZZOTTO, Ph.D., HARRY A. KERN,
M.Ed., and EDWARD F. DAVIS, M.S.

http://www.rrmemphis.com/myth.pdf

 

[rcmodel]

Seeing as how so many new gun owners are buying them like popcorn lately.

I predict any future study will show a higher incidence of one-shot stops with the .380 ACP then with the .45 ACP.

rc

 

[jon_in_wv]

People who complain about other people complaining about repetition should get a life!

 

[Jackal1]

I should say that after my wife read the article she suddenly realized she needed to shoot to kill and not shoot to maim. I am forever thankful for that article giving her that understanding....

 

[Prosser]

Kind of new, and not really brought up much.

We now have handgun calibers that rival the old black powder buffalo rifles, and, are still packable, and shootable, like normal pistols.

How about a 275 grain bullet, at 1560 fps, out of a 5" revolver, that opens up to the size of a two bore rifle?



The .475 Linebaugh, .500JRH, .500 S&W, though it's hampered by gun size,
.460 S&W, give us rifle like ballistics in handguns.

While it may not be PC, these rounds bring a SERIOUS improvement in wounding effect, never really available in handgun cartridges, and packable pistols before.

For carry, these guns seriously increase the effect of handgun bullets on targets. My hunting friends don't use these bullets on deer, because they cause a near 4" wound channel that destroys a LOT of meat.

New carry gun, anyone?



It is possible these days to carry rounds that are so far outside the sandbox that is being discussed by these folks as to require a qualification, limiting their general comments, and altering their conclusions.

For instance:
The .460 S&W Hornady factory load claims 2300 fps, with a 200 grain .45 Caliber bullet. This makes the limitations placed on handguns, the premise in Urey Patrick's article, invalid.

It is possible to push a 275 Speer HP at 1600 fps, out of a 5-6" revolver, in .500JRH or .475 Linebaugh.
It is also possible to push a 275 grain bullet at 2137 fps out of a .500 S&W.

These days it IS possible to bring fragmentation into wounding with handguns, and, that it's wounding effect would NOT be "inconsequential".

Another option is to push soft, or frangible bullets, HEAVY bullets, at shotgun like velocity.
The .500 S&W brings up some intresting situations. It is capable of launching 525 grain bullets at 1350 fps. Perhaps either very soft lead, gas checked, or,
the old stack of dimes type round might give you stopping power that has so far been only reserved for shotguns?

Another possibility is a sabot round, that is inherently unstable, and fragments. I helped test shoot Ballistic Research Inc.'s 450 grain, .45 caliber sabot, that was loaded between 1200-1800 fps, depending on
who had the patent, in the last 30 years. One could load such a round in the .500 S&W case, or in the .460 S&W for that matter, and have nearly a 1" long projectile that tumbles through it's target, at around
1450 fps.

 

[KodiakBeer]

One thing everybody seems to miss about the FBI study is that their criteria is based on an offensive capability that doesn't always accord with what is needed for defensive use of handguns. In effect, they're looking for rounds that shoot through car doors, windows and other barriers and still have adequate penetration when it contacts the perp.

That's not at all what a civilian would want. If we shoot through a car door, it's called murder.

For my money, I just want any HP with reliable expansion. I don't care much about penetration or jacket toughness.

 

[Shadow 7D]

yeah, and lot's of people miss that, and the whole distance thing, when posting, so like Kodiak said, a good bullet out of a gun you are accurate with is the trick

 

[Prosser]

Patrick mentions 18" of penetration as 'preferable'. How come that figure is often overlooked?

I gather you are talking about the tests, at about the same time, where the bullets are tested against the barriers you mention?

 

[CTI1USNRET]

Car doors, car windows, interior walls and doors do not stop bullets. If the bullet or birdshot can't penetrate these things it won't destroy enough deep tissue in a bad guy either.

If someone is shooting at you while you're seated in a car, or you're the target in a drive-by, your return fire needs to penetrate car windows and doors.

There is a segment on Personal Defense TV that addresses shooting through doors, refridgerators, multiple interior walls, and furniture. It showed that none of them stopped bullets, not even the lowly 380 ACP (and the 380 ACP is a marginal cartridge on torso shots).

The Box of Truth is a site devoted to testing bullet performance.

The need for accuracy is a given. Practice is a must. The study helped me weed out cartridges that are unsuitable for SD.

The study ended, "... the edge always goes to the bigger bullet."

To me, that means using the largest caliber (with a bullet on the heavy side) that I can control.

 

[SC_Slowhand]

It's all good stuff

Great stuff. It always helps to know the effectiveness of a carry round. I always take some time to read such studies. Thanks for posting the link. It's a must read that I had the good fortune to read a few years back.

What type of weapon I carry for self defense is based upon where I'm going and how I'm dressed. In the hot summer months it's usually a Sig P-239 in 9 mm, with a Ruger LCP .380 for a BUG. In the fall and winter months the main carry gun is a Ruger Super Redhawk Alaskan, in .44 Mag, with a 2.5 in barrel. Either round is capable of doing the job.

Regardless of the round it's all about placement. I saw the results of proper placement of a BIC pen one night into an attackers chest. She got it right.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

That's not at all what a civilian would want. If we shoot through a car door, it's called murder.

You may be stopped at the side of the road because of a mechanical problem or to change a flat tire - and have to shoot through an open door, raised engine hood, trunk, hatchback, fender, or windshield in self-defense.

 

[Balrog]

Shot placement is not everything, but it is the most critical. I have seen people shot through the heart with a 380, in and out the right ventricle, repaired in OR, and went home a week later. This is obviously a rare event, but strange things happen with bullets.

I like big holes in vital organs.

 

[Old Fuff]

I like big holes in vital organs.

It's hard to argue against this logic, but I will ask, "How long did the wounded individual that suffered a .380 hit to the heart remain a threat - if he or she was one in the first place?"

 

[Balrog]

As soon as he was shot, he ran off, and collapsed across the street. It sounds like any threat he posed ended when he heard the gun fire. It does not appear he realized he was shot.

 

[PabloJ]

Kind of new, and not really brought up much.

We now have handgun calibers that rival the old black powder buffalo rifles, and, are still packable, and shootable, like normal pistols.

How about a 275 grain bullet, at 1560 fps, out of a 5" revolver, that opens up to the size of a two bore rifle?



The .475 Linebaugh, .500JRH, .500 S&W, though it's hampered by gun size,
.460 S&W, give us rifle like ballistics in handguns.

While it may not be PC, these rounds bring a SERIOUS improvement in wounding effect, never really available in handgun cartridges, and packable pistols before.

For carry, these guns seriously increase the effect of handgun bullets on targets. My hunting friends don't use these bullets on deer, because they cause a near 4" wound channel that destroys a LOT of meat.

New carry gun, anyone?



It is possible these days to carry rounds that are so far outside the sandbox that is being discussed by these folks as to require a qualification, limiting their general comments, and altering their conclusions.

For instance:
The .460 S&W Hornady factory load claims 2300 fps, with a 200 grain .45 Caliber bullet. This makes the limitations placed on handguns, the premise in Urey Patrick's article, invalid.

It is possible to push a 275 Speer HP at 1600 fps, out of a 5-6" revolver, in .500JRH or .475 Linebaugh.
It is also possible to push a 275 grain bullet at 2137 fps out of a .500 S&W.

These days it IS possible to bring fragmentation into wounding with handguns, and, that it's wounding effect would NOT be "inconsequential".

Another option is to push soft, or frangible bullets, HEAVY bullets, at shotgun like velocity.
The .500 S&W brings up some intresting situations. It is capable of launching 525 grain bullets at 1350 fps. Perhaps either very soft lead, gas checked, or,
the old stack of dimes type round might give you stopping power that has so far been only reserved for shotguns?

Another possibility is a sabot round, that is inherently unstable, and fragments. I helped test shoot Ballistic Research Inc.'s 450 grain, .45 caliber sabot, that was loaded between 1200-1800 fps, depending on
who had the patent, in the last 30 years. One could load such a round in the .500 S&W case, or in the .460 S&W for that matter, and have nearly a 1" long projectile that tumbles through it's target, at around
1450 fps.

That is lovely SS .500S&W revolver. Where can I purchase one?

 

[Prosser]

Jack Huntington Advanced Gunsmithing did the modifications on a stock S&W.
JRH Advanced Gunsmithing
21854 Meyer Ravine Rd
Grass Valley, CA. 95949
5302686877

 

[thehootman]

That's all a bunch of crap for the interweb gun crowd amusement only. It is not the size or shape of the bullet or what it comes out of, it is where you put it. Bobby Kennedy was killed with a .22 short out of a $10.00 Saturday Night Special. A $5.00 super duper hollow point out of a custom made $5,000.00 Kimber would not have made him any more dead.

We won our freedom from England with single shot muskets that shot lead marbles that could not hit the broad side of a barn at 100 yards.