Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness

[MarshallDodge]

Really, Everyone would be much better served by more threads on marksmanship and less on bullets.

This is the right attitude. Anybody you talk to who is a bullet expert will tell you that shot placement is THE most critical factor in stopping a threat.

I like the way DocGKR puts it:

The keys are:

-- Cultivate a warrior mindset
-- Invest in competent, thorough initial training and then maintain skills with regular ongoing practice
-- Acquire a reliable and durable weapon system
-- Purchase a consistent, robust performing duty/self-defense load in sufficient quantities (at least 1000 rounds) then STOP worrying about the nuances of handgun ammunition terminal performance.

 

[jon_in_wv]

Amen

 

[Prosser]

If it was all crap, LEO and everyone else would be using 22 short as their primary weapons, instead of shotguns. Martin Fackler would be out of a job, and all those guys that hunt would be shooting 22 short out of their handguns.
Have a Happy New Year.

P

 

[Prosser]

-- Cultivate a warrior mindset
-- Invest in competent, thorough initial training and then maintain skills with regular ongoing practice
-- Acquire a reliable and durable weapon system
-- Purchase a consistent, robust performing duty/self-defense load in sufficient quantities (at least 1000 rounds) then STOP worrying about the nuances of handgun ammunition terminal performance.

First line is really funny. How do you do that? Buy a gun? Developing the mind set of a warrior is a LOT more then buying a gun.
Agree with second.
Reliable and durable weapon?
Try a knife or mace, taser, for someone that doesn't know how to shoot.
I tend to agree with the ammo recommendation, but, it depends on what weapon you buy.

There is a HUGE difference between the effects on target of 22 short and
.500 Smith and Wesson.

You need to match your firearm choice, and ammunition, to the likely threat you face. Being charged by rats: 22 short is plenty.

Being attacked by 360 pound convicts, who lifted weights for their 25 years of time in prison for murder? You really want a 22 short?

Why have a service caliber pistol, when you are attacked by a big game sized bad guy?

THINK OUTSIDE THE COMMON BOX, IF IT'S REQUIRED FOR YOUR SITUATION.

My home defense weapon? First pick, Mosin Nagant 44. Why? It was designed to stop people in close combat. Likewise the 30-06, .308 etc.

If I can get a handgun, with similar ballistic effect, why would I want a 22 short=9MM?

I can't fit a 30-06 under the pillow. I can a .500 S&W.

 

[CTI1USNRET]

I accept the FACT that I won't hit the bad guy in the Central Nervous System with any of my shots when both of us are ducking and weaving. So deep penetration through the organs from any angle must be the objective. A CNS hit that stops the fight is just lucky.

There will be no visual clues that I'm missing or hitting the bad guy. I'll keep moving and shooting.

If the bad guy is bent over and trying to get behind cover, is a center of mass shot with a 380 ACP, 32 ACP, 22LR, birdshot, or whatever, going to penetrate the guy's clothes, wallet, ass, hip bones, stomach and everything else before reaching (and penetrating) the liver, heart, lungs, backbone or brain? (I don't think so.) Will he even notice that he's hit? The sound of my shots will probably have more immediate effect than non-CNS hits.

There will be no visual clues that I'm missing or hitting the bad guy. I'll keep moving and shooting.

I watch videos of actual shootings. No one assumes a proper shooting stance with their balance 'just so' when they've been surprised. Not even our best trained, alert-for-trouble police wearing body armor. Why? Because the instinct to live tells them it's not the right thing to do at the time. Everybody's running and ducking and missing until somebody makes the mistake of staying still without cover.

The 11% of my shots lucky enough to hit the bad guy have got to penetrate his blood-heavy organs after going through the ATM, my car, furniture, walls, his leg, ass, and arms.

There will be no visual clues that I'm missing or hitting the bad guy. I'll keep moving and shooting. His screams don't mean I've hit him. It means he's still able to pull the trigger. I'll keep moving and shooting.

Training to move toward cover and continuously shooting, and reloading quickly in awkward positions is probably more important than anything else.

I hardly ever shoot bullseye. It's fun, but it's only benefit is maintaining familiarization of my weapon.

I practice shooting and reloading while moving, while crawling. The results of my practice will hardly ever result in a tight group on paper that I can later show off to my friends. ( I usualy shoot at steel silhouettes.)

I carry a 1911 45 ACP and two extra 8-round mags. In my car and by my bed are 8-mag bandoleers.

There will be no visual clues that I'm missing or hitting the bad guy. I'll keep moving and shooting.

If I do it right, the fight will end when he leaves the scene and collapses in the parking lot or in the neighbor's yard or around the corner from the ATM.

I watch the videos and try to learn the right lessons.

 

[jon_in_wv]

First line is really funny. How do you do that? Buy a gun? Developing the mind set of a warrior is a LOT more then buying a gun.

Who said "developing a warrior mindset" meant just "buying a gun"? It seems to me is the third line is "acquire a reliable and durable weapon system" then the first probably DOESN'T mean "buy a gun". You argument doesn't hold much water.

 

[Balrog]

Who said "developing a warrior mindset" meant just "buying a gun"?

I think playing Call of Duty about 6hrs a day helps this too.
I know I would have never made Elite Team Fighters without it.

 

[oldfool]

As soon as he was shot, he ran off


that happens a lot (fortunately), though not something you can rely upon

but short of a true CNS hit (which involves some measure of luck "under stress", no matter how skilled the shooter), I put zero faith in one shot stops out of any common handgun caliber, and just don't believe in magic bullets

the one-shot stop myth exists mostly because far too many presume it means "instantaneous death"; the truth is very different
any determined-to-kill-you attacker can close a 7-10 yard gap on you in easily less than two seconds; extreme few will drop dead in less than one second, no matter what handgun caliber hit with COM
the good news is that most of them are really not all that anxious to go meet god

there would be at least a little more truth in it all, if they referred to one-shot-quit-doing-that

 

[thehootman]

Did they tell you that your CCL is a one time use only item. Go ahead and use that fancy $1,000.00 gun. You will be arrested, booked, indicted by a grand jury and pay about $250,000.00 in legal fees and you will never see your CCL again..

That's just for the criminal part. Then the family of the bad guy will sue you civilly and most likely get a negotiated settlement in the area of about a Million Dollars or so. Great Country America. The land of the lawsuit.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Don't know where you live hootman

VUT Ver I live
Thank the lord we have castle doctrine

 

[Prosser]

CTI1USNRET:

Excellent post. I can now be a bit more specific on new developments for 1911's.

Buffalobore has a 255 grain wide flat nose in 45 Super that moves about 1075-1100 fps, IIRC.

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=215

Also:

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=214

I tend to think that puts the 45 ACP in .45 Colt class.

I'm getting kind of disgusted with the old,
"Can't tell the bullet hole from .38 to 45",
medical two step.

YES, YOU CAN. Here is what a Keith style Flat point, at 1150 fps in .45 Caliber, does to a deer:


Here is what a .500JRH at 1350 LFN does to asian buffalo:


That buffalobore load is very similar to the Holy Grail of ballistics that started the .45 ACP: the .45 Colt, with a 255-275 grain bullet at 1000 fps to 1100 fps, that worked so well to stop both people and horses in war.



I think that moves the .45 ACP into a different category.

Happy New Year

 

[DenaliPark]

I was on another forum in which a famous dentist had convinced some neurotic cop that 165 gr Speer Gold Dot was gonna get him killed! I am not kidding, the neurotic opined that he was "bitterly disappointed" with his dept's refusal to switch to a 180 gr alternative! I swear to God, you can't make this stuff up....

 

[orionengnr]

Bobby Kennedy was killed with a .22 short out of a $10.00 Saturday Night Special.

Yes, unarmed, unsuspecting, shot at point blank range multiple times. And died 26 hours later. Not exactly your average SD encounter.

Did they tell you that your CCL is a one time use only item. Go ahead and use that fancy $1,000.00 gun. You will be arrested, booked, indicted by a grand jury and pay about $250,000.00 in legal fees and you will never see your CCL again..

That's just for the criminal part. Then the family of the bad guy will sue you civilly and most likely get a negotiated settlement in the area of about a Million Dollars or so. Great Country America. The land of the lawsuit.

Wrong on all counts.

 

[Prosser]

.22 Short penetrates 6-8 inches in rats, and does not expand. Properly placed, it's much like an ice pick.

 

[jon_in_wv]

Prosser, your photos (and many I've seen like it) tend to fly in the face of a lot of guys who chant the mantra that pistol bullets are so weak that there is NO damage cause by the temporary cavity and they are not capable of punching more than a caliber sized hole through tissue. Yet, you can clearly see stretched, bruised, torn, and crushed tissue in the photos that appears to be larger than the actual caliber of the bullet that inflicted it. There obviously isn't as mach as if you had been shooting a rifle. Good shooting too!

 

[Prosser]

Hi Jon in WV.
Those shots are by Jack Huntington, and some of his disciples. Jack shot the Asian buffalo. He swears his .500JRH, 1350 fps, 430 grain bullet LFN hits big game like a 375 H&H rifle. Most of his rifle hunting is with a double 9.3 x 74r Chapui.
I was lucky enough to test a Merkel in that caliber, that also ended up going to Africa:

This round was loaded with 320 grain solids, at about 2200 IIRC, and, with Jack's incredible accuracy, brought home everything he shot, including a cape buffalo.


So, since the 9.3 is very similar to the 375 H&H, when Jack says his pistol rounds hit like a .375, I trust him.

The deer heart was by a West Virginia shooter that hangs out in the handgun hunting forum, at accurate reloading. I listen to what they say, because I'm at a point where I really don't want to kill anything more in my life, unless it's trying to kill me. They argue that a cast bullet, LFN, properly placed, at between 1150 fps and 1350 fps will kill pretty much anything in the 48, provided it's above .429" caliber.

There is another guy that likes hollowpoints in big calibers. He's had some spectacular results, and also some pretty bad failures. One bison in particular
soaked up two cylinders of hollow points, and was still on it's feet, and had to be finished with a 375 H&H.

The major problem with big hollow points is they open up, dump all the energy, and create a huge hole, like 4". Problem is, penetration can be an issue, as can meat damage. If I was trying to hunt with a big hollow point, it would have to be heavy for caliber. However, for what we are discussing here, a hand gun that can blow a 4" hole through a deer weight target is certainly a massive improvement, WAY outside the box being discussed here.

The general consensus is a LFN at 1350 fps, in the .475-.510 range is ideal.
As you can see, it creates a larger wound channel then it's generally credited for, and, punches two holes in the target. It's also going through the target fast enough to turn bone into shrapnel, and that creates secondary projectiles. When lead bullets hit bone,they do tend to flatten, becoming larger then caliber flat points, going through the target, acting like a hollow point.

Here are a couple .475 HP's, and a .500 JRH. You can see how the front of the lead bullet has expanded


Below are three .500JRH 430 grain bullets, recovered. You can see that one hit very heavy bone, and expanded considerably.



Hope you have a Happy New Year.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Prosser, your photos (and many I've seen like it) tend to fly in the face of a lot of guys who chant the mantra that pistol bullets are so weak that there is NO damage cause by the temporary cavity and they are not capable of punching more than a caliber sized hole through tissue. Yet, you can clearly see stretched, bruised, torn, and crushed tissue in the photos that appears to be larger than the actual caliber of the bullet that inflicted it. There obviously isn't as mach as if you had been shooting a rifle.

In regard to common combat handgun cartridges (i.e., 9mm, .38 Special, .357 Magnum, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, .357 SIG) the temporary cavity produced is too small to be relied upon to permanently disrupt resilient soft tissues such as muscle, lung, blood vessels, nerves, etc. This does not imply that they will not stretch and tear resilient soft tissues. For example, JHP handgun bullets frequently stretch and tear a larger diameter hole in the musculature of the interior wall of the chest cavity when passing between ribs - because the muscle tissue is constrained by connective tissues and cannot stretch like it would if it were unconstrained - therefore it tears. The location of the temporary cavity along the wound track and the particular tissues involved are factors that determine the amount of wound trauma produced.

In addition a bullet that strikes an arm that's blocking its path to the torso will produce its maximum temporary cavity in the arm and not the torso. Commonly encountered barrier materials affect a bullet's terminal performance in soft tissues also.

The wounding mechanism of temporary cavitation produced by common combat handgun cartridges is insufficient, inconsistent and unreliable.

The wound depicted in the photos were produced by handgun cartridges that are impractical for most people to use for defense due to the large size of the handgun required and/or recoil tolerance/management/recovery.

 

[Prosser]

Mr. Dodson:
With all due respect: You state clearly a situation caused by ammunition choice. The public has long been sold that hollow point bullets are the way to go for SD, LEO, etc.

As you clearly point out, HP's tend to open up like a parachute, slow down in a relatively slow space, and create most of their damage in the first 6 inches of penetration.

What my 'friends' advocate is a LFN bullet, or flat nosed bullet, medium to heavy for caliber, starting with at least .45", at relatively high velocity, 1350 fps being ideal. Tissue damage, while perhaps not as spectacular in the first 6 inches, gives you a longer, wider, and much deeper wound channel. This type of bullet maintains it's velocity through the target for a much longer distance, creating secondary projectiles with bone, and causing the damage you can see above.

Of the calibers you mention, the .45 ACP can be loaded with 255 grain LFN's that cause a deeper longer wound channel then the other calibers you mention, and, for the reasons you mention, one might consider John Browning's initial choice for the .45 ACP:
a 200 grain LFN type non-expanding bullet. In fact, a flat point bullet in most of the calibers you mention is a non-PC alternative to current HP ammunition that should be considered.

The hunting folk I know swear by LFN lead bullets. They work, EVERY TIME.

Bullet failure is taken out of the equation. You punch a big, long hole through the target, reaching the vital organs with enough velocity to do serious damage, and, usually penetrate leaving two holes to bleed out, not one.

Perhaps in the lesser calibers, .380 up, such rounds should be considered.

I carry a PM9 sometimes, and, I carry one magazine with HST 147 grain HP's, and another with 130 grain flat point jacketed bullets, both at about 950 out of the little gun. The HST concerns me, since it will expand, quickly, limiting penetration to 10-14". As Mr. Dodson points out, if the guy is shooting at me, and has his arm up, the arm is going to get the majority of the damage, and the bullet may not penetrate deep enough to get to a vital organ.

 

[jon_in_wv]

In regard to common combat handgun cartridges (i.e., 9mm, .38 Special, .357 Magnum, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, .357 SIG) the temporary cavity produced is too small to be relied upon to permanently disrupt resilient soft tissues such as muscle, lung, blood vessels, nerves, etc. This does not imply that they will not stretch and tear resilient soft tissues. For example, JHP handgun bullets frequently stretch and tear a larger diameter hole in the musculature of the interior wall of the chest cavity when passing between ribs - because the muscle tissue is constrained by connective tissues and cannot stretch like it would if it were unconstrained - therefore it tears. The location of the temporary cavity along the wound track and the particular tissues involved are factors that determine the amount of wound trauma produced.

In addition a bullet that strikes an arm that's blocking its path to the torso will produce its maximum temporary cavity in the arm and not the torso. Commonly encountered barrier materials affect a bullet's terminal performance in soft tissues also.

The wounding mechanism of temporary cavitation produced by common combat handgun cartridges is insufficient, inconsistent and unreliable.

The wound depicted in the photos were produced by handgun cartridges that are impractical for most people to use for defense due to the large size of the handgun required and/or recoil tolerance/management/recovery.
__________________
/s/ Shawn Dodson

This is one of those posts where I can't tell if you are agreeing with me, disagreeing, of just like to type a lot.

 

[jon_in_wv]

Double post.

 

[SoulLessGinger]

Really, Everyone would be much better served by more threads on marksmanship and less on bullets.

I love target shooting with my handguns, but "marksmanship", in a defensive situation, goes right out the window. I'd be more concerned with practicing your draw and point shooting.

 

[jon_in_wv]

But since this thread ISN'T about marksmanship and it IS about ballistics lets have the manners to not hijack the thread on another pointless discussion.

 

[DEAHEAT]

Ive been typed too many posts about how effective the 9mm and stated the following supporting evidence. That being said let me dig up my old post!

 

[Prosser]

jon_in_wv
Prosser, your photos (and many I've seen like it) tend to fly in the face of a lot of guys who chant the mantra that pistol bullets are so weak that there is NO damage cause by the temporary cavity and they are not capable of punching more than a caliber sized hole through tissue. Yet, you can clearly see stretched, bruised, torn, and crushed tissue in the photos that appears to be larger than the actual caliber of the bullet that inflicted it. There obviously isn't as mach as if you had been shooting a rifle. Good shooting too!

Jon: Here are some pictures of similar results with different rifle calibers:
Here is a buffalo heart, hit with a 375 H&H

This a Garett Hammerhead, I think a 45-70:


The wound channels of the big pistol cartridges look a LOT like .375 rifle damage, and up.

I really think these guys are telling the truth when they say these pistol cartridges in .475" and bigger hit like light to medium bore rifles...