Happy Birthday to me- Which 7.62 Battle Rifle?

[Texpatriate]

Had my birthday a couple of days ago and it's time for the wife to buy me something nice. I'm thinking something in black might suit the occasion.

So here's what I'm thinking: two complete lower receivers, one for an AR-15 (maybe RRA) and one for an AR-10 (maybe DPMS?); OR a Springfield Armory M1A and a striped lower for an AR-15. Happy birthday to me.

I have no experience whatsoever with EBR's, but I figure there's no time like the present, especially with the uncertain political climate of the near future. I've got all the handguns, shotguns, and bolt rifles I "need" (at least I've fooled myself into thinking that for now).

I could get one complete rifle in any of these styles, but I know I want both eventually. In the eventuallity of a Clinton style assault weapons ban (or perhaps worse- a complete ban on the sale of all semi-autos) in the near future I would be grandfathered in already having at the very least the serial numbered lowers (or a complete rifle and a serial numbered lower). I like to tinker so a build sounds fun, though it may take a while to get the scratch together for the complete builds. Also, I like the idea of being intimately familiar with the inner workings of each rifle.

So the question I've got for you fine folks is this: Which 7.62x51mm battle rifle platform should I go with? The AR-10 or the M1A? What are the accuracy and reliability issues involved with each? Is one more prone to jam? Not looking for fanboys, just honest feedback. I'd especially love to hear from folks with real world experience with both platforms.

By the way, I tend to go for long range accuracy over being "tacticool".

Thoughts? Comments? Suggestions?

 

[JWarren]

Of the choice you gave, I'd probably go the route of the M1A.

Cheaper magazines, good reviews from owners, classic lines.


I went the route of a converted Saiga 308 for my 7.62x51 NATO needs, but I like the M1A and the AR-10 as well. In the AR-10, I have been concerned that some have posted here expressing difficulty in firing some 308 rounds in tight AR-10 chambers, IIRC.


-- John

 

[glockman19]

I'd get the Springfield M1A and the stripped lower myself.

 

[Father Knows Best]

I think the M1A is a better rifle than the AR-10, but I also think it's more likely to survive any "gun bans" unscathed due to its wood stock sans pistol grip. The AR-10 is an EBR ("evil black rifle") and so you can count on it being banned under any potential legislative scenario.

 

[raubritter]

M1A. No funky magazines.

 

[FuzzyBunny]

HK91 or good clone 50 mags for $60.
Built like a tank


FuzzyBunny

 

[GunTech]

Depend on what you want. FAL mags are the cheapest. GI m14 mags are not cheap and the after-market mags are crap. If you want Pre accuracy, the AR-10 (And similar) wins hands down.

My personal favorite is the M1A. There are lots of options, and they can be made (after spending a lot of money) to shoot extremely well, but not quite as well as an accurized AR-10.

Figure base price for a M1A is around $1500. Spend another $1000 to get it to shoot really well, then add the cost of a good scope. The AR-10 HB can be had for a little less, and doesn't require bedding, etc. Just add scope and rings. The FAL is about the same as the AR-10, but is only an average shooter. It does have a certain cool factor. Mounting a scope is problematic.

My baby:

 

[Trojan6]

I've got both an M1A and a DPMS LR308 AP4. Advantages and disadvantages for both. Here's my experiences so far:
DPMS w/16" barrel out of the box outshoots my M1A, which has been bedded and has a heavy match barrel on it.
DPMS however, has not been entirely reliable. On the positive side, DPMS has been OUSTANDING in their customer service in getting the problem fixed.
M1A has been 100% reliable through thousands of reloads.
While the M1A has great tradition for me personally, I prefer the ergonomics of the DPMS because I am used to AR type rifles, and the carbine version is extremely handy. M1A in my current setup is a little heavy to lug around all day as well.
The trigger on the DPMS was terrible and was quickly changed to an Armalite two-stage. Also looking at replacing stock with CAA SRS w/o pod.
If you've got the time to invest in the DPMS, and it sounds like you have plenty of other rifles, it is an awesome platform. I will more than likely sell my M1A once I get the DPMS set up the way I want it.
Scope mounting is much better and easier on the AR than the M1A.
You can get different uppers for it later down the road, either a longer or shorter barrel depending on which model you start off with, and can even get different calibers (DPMS offering 243, 260, and 300 SAUM). Put a dedicated optic on the upper, zero it, then store it. Push two pins and you could switch between the two on the same hunt (close-in hog/brush gun with 308 carbine + EOTECH in the morning, 260 cal 24in upper + good scope for coyote hunt in the afternoon, etc...)
You can't do this with an M1A, although you could buy a SOCOM or Scout for the brush gun, and stick with a standard model for long range work, but now you're talking SERIOUS $$$$.
I agree with previous poster that the AR-10 would likely get banned before an M1A.
This at least is the decision that I have come to based on my circumstances, but might work for you as well. Feel free to PM me if you've got any specific questions.

LH3

 

[MechAg94]

AR10's are picky on ammo. The M1A standard will eat surplus all day. Neither has great mag prices.

 

[iamkris]

I vote "none of the above" -- but rather DSA SA58 Para FAL




And compared to a couple of your choices

 

[AZ Jeff]

HK91 or good clone 50 mags for $60.
Built like a tank

And it has the ergonomics of a brick.

The HK91/CETME series rifles are durable, yes, but the have VERY poor ergonomics compared to ANY of the aforementioned competitors.

Add to that the fact that recoil from them is markedly sharper than for any of the other rifles mentioned, and the HK/CETME series comes in last place in general "shootability".

Did I also mention they tend to have HORRIDLY heavy/creepy triggers from the factory?

 

[GunTech]

Jeff, you forgot to mention the HK has positively dangerous ejection, and brass gets pretty mangled. Some people will not reload brass that's been fired in a fluted chamber.

 

[Andrewsky]

I don't understand why people complain about magazine prices for the M1A.

I ordered 10 new 20 round magazines from CMI, $230 delivered. They're fabulous. Considering I paid $1,500 for my SOCOM and ammo is $.60 a round, I wasn't complaining about the magazine prices.

Anyways, more to the point...

I've never seen a FAL in person. They sound like awesome rifles though. I think you'd be disappointed if a G3 clone was your only rifle. I don't know much about AR-10s either.

So, whether you get a FAL, AR10, or M1A you'll probably be happy.

 

[funfaler]

Yep, M1A mags from 44mags.com are current USGI issue mags for $23.99 each, shipping free if over $100 order.

I have a "couple" of M1As and find them to be very accurate, reliable and ergonomically comfortable to shoot, especially from sitting and prone positions, while using a sling.

If you keep an eye on the various gun forums, you will see an issue with many of the AR-10s out there. A buddy had a DPMS AR-10, and it would not eject any ammo, but factory 308 win. It would not cycle any surplus 7.62x51, including SA, CAVIM, Aussie, Port. In talking to DPMS, they specifically stated that they would not expect the DPMS 308 to cycle the surplus. May similar stories on the boards.

FAL for my money is a better bet than the AR-10 platform, but I like the M1A better than the FAL, but only marginally.

Neither the M1a or FAL can be "built" easily, thus I recommend that you purchase those as complete rifles. The AR-15 is very easy to "build" (really just assemble) thus getting a receiver, and parts kit would be a way to save a few $$.

Good luck

 

[AZ Jeff]

Jeff, you fogit to mention the HK has positively dangerous ejection, and Brass gets pretty mangled. So people will not reload brass that's been fired in a fluted chamber.

Actually, that's not totally true. I owned an HK-91 for many years, and sucessfully handloaded LOTS of rounds for it. The key to keeping brass reusable is to:

(1) employ an HK ejection port buffer, to lessen brass denting and ejection distance.
(2) reload the cases with a fairly fast burning propellant, to lessen case swelling as the bolt begins to retract while chamber pressures are high(er).

I got about 4 reloadings out of a case that way, with cracking in the flute grooves in the necks being the limiting factor.

I just could never get past the inability to reach the safety or mag latch with the shooting hand in place, nor could I deal with the relatively short length of pull that caused my nose to get bopped by the hump of the reciever if I was not careful. As I said, the ergonomics left a LOT to be desired compared to all the other 7.62x51 self-loaders.

 

[TIMC]

I have an AR-10 and an M-21 which is the tactical version of the M1A. Since you are going for long range accuracy I would say go with an M1A

The AR-10 has been a fantastic rifle for hunting pigs. My longest kill so far has been 225 yards but I don't get the chance to shoot much farther due to hunting in heavy brush country. The rifle has never had a feed or extraction problem with any ammo I have run through it.



The M-21 I just bought and have only put 40 rounds through it but alread it has shown some amazing accuracy. I plan on trying some match grade rounds through it tomorrow to see what it can do. While I like the AR-10 a lot I feel the M1a is a better rifle and it will probably replace my AR-10 as my primary pig hunting rig.

 

[Texpatriate]

Thanks for all the feedback folks, though I must admit that I'm still as undecided as I was before! As cool as it would be to have an FAL or a CETME, I don't think that's what I'm interested in right now, maybe someday though. Right now as I'm in grad school I can only afford to get about 1 gun per year.

TIMC- I love the smiley on the flip up scope cap. What's the cap on the objective end look like?

 

[TIMC]

TIMC- I love the smiley on the flip up scope cap. What's the cap on the objective end look like?

That my friend is something you don't want to ever know!

 

[Crunker1337]

TIMC, wow homes, who mfg'd that rifle and how much did it cost?? (minus the scope)

Nice buy.

 

[mswestfall]

M1A all the way.

 

[Headless Thompson Gunner]

I've owned both M1A and AR10. Both are good rifles, but they're different. The AR10 is the better long range precision rifle. The M1A is the better all-around battle rifle, with the short barreled versions being especially nice.

The AR10 is the better long range rifle. It's more accurate than the M1a from the start in stock condition. It's easier to accurize further. It's easier to improve the ergonomics. It is much easier to scope. The AR10 has better ergonomics.

The M1a is tougher and more robust. Basic M1As can shrug off more abuse than ARs. Bedded M1As don't tolerate rough handling very well, though. The M1a isn't as accurate as the AR given similar amounts of tuning, but it's still very accurate, more than accurate enough for placing long shots under field conditions. The M1a is perhaps less likely to scare the sheep or be banned under a new law.

 

[Deer Hunter]

I'm gonna vote for the FAL. In my opinion, the sturdiest platform out there as far as MBR's go. Cheap mags, and all kinds of options. DSArms is a great place to deal with, too. Plus it's cheaper than the AR-10 and the M1A.

 

[TIMC]

TIMC, wow homes, who mfg'd that rifle and how much did it cost?? (minus the scope)

Nice buy.

The rifle is made by Springfield Armory and is a factory custom M1A with the designation of M-21. I started my search a few months ago with the idea of buying a National Match rifle and doing some work to it. I liked the idea of the Super Match rifles being Glass bedded, Match grade barrels and having tuned triggers. The only thing I would need is a scope mount and cheek risor, then I saw this M-21 for sale and fell in love. Everything I wanted was already done except for the scope.
I bought the rifle off of GunBroker for $2629.00 shipping included. My transfer fee was $20. I then bought a SMith enterprises M-21 mount which was $180.00, 2 spare mags at $29 each and stole a scope off of one of my deer rifles ($600), the Millet rings I already had but run about $30.
Total invested as pictured is a little over $3500

I did a little shooting today with 168 grain match grade ammo and had 3 shot groups running .695 and .710 but I think I can improve that when I work some handloads up for the rifle.

 

[Adirondack1]

Hands down, FN FAL!

Parts and magazines are considerably cheaper than both the AR10 Platform and the M1A.

You might like the ergonomics of the metric FAL better than Inch models.

Shop around, there are many of them kicking around out there, and for what you'd pay for either of the other platforms the FAL can be had used at a great price.

You might even me able to stock up on more 308 while you can as supplies are dwindling fast.

You might even have enough money left over to buy that AR15 lower and build yourself a decent mousegun companion to your main battle rifle.

 

[GunTech]

TIMC,

Nice M21. I picked the Sadlak titanium mount after having a Smith. One less tool, and a bit lighter. They will also custom fit a mount, as many SA receivers are out of spec. I added the Rooster 33 bolt release, unitized gas system (a must for accuracy) and a Rader trigger. Unlije the stock M1A/M14 trigger, the Rader can be safely set at weights as low as 1.5 pounds. I opted for TPS tactical rings.

It's amazine how much you can pour into these things. Mine started out as a stainless 'loaded' for a mere $1700. It's a sickness, but it sure is fun.

I really like the M21 stock with adjustable cheek rest. I just wish it was synthetic. The JAE-100 is nice, but it adds about 2 pounds to the weight, and cost around $750. Still, the titanium bedding block securely beads the rifle and makes a huge difference.

I previously owned both an SR-25 and an AR-10. Both would shoot 1/4 MOA, while the M1a just just under 1 MOA with FGMM. But the AR-10 just lacks a certain something. I'll stick with my M1A.