Has the Bipod Made the Sling Obsolete?

[elChupacabra!]

Alright, here is my situation. I'm working on getting ready for one of the Appleseed shoots here in Tennessee coming up in September (haven't yet decided which one) and know I need to buy 2 slings, one for each of the rifles I'm going to be bringing, since they are so highly recommended for the event.

Although I do have a simple nylon sling on QD mounts, I never use it. (I'm talking about shooting slings, not carrying slings, as my AR does have a QD single-point sling and my shotgun has a 3-point sling). I tried a couple times, but it honestly seems a little overwrought - by the time you adjust it down, wrap your arm in it and get into position, I could have just flipped the legs on the bipod down and (theoretically) have an even more stable shooting position.

So here is my question - with the growing popularity of bipods, has the sling become obsolete? Now please understand I'm not talking about competition shooting, I'm talking about fighting / utility rifles like an AR or something of that sort. It seems to me that, from a practical standpoint, if you are shooting on the move or at anything within say 100m, getting all wrapped up in a sling seems to be too cumbersome and more of a hinderance to mobility rather than an aid to accurate shooting. If you are shooting at a far target, have the opportunity to go prone and want to improve that prone position, the bipod seems easier, quicker, and more stable than using the sling. In either case, the sling seems like a losing proposition.

I know some may say that bipods are heavy and that 12 extra ounces is alot to hang out at the end of the barrel, and that may be a point... but even my SAM-R patterned AR, with the scope, bipod, AND an extra 30-round mag attached to the buttstock weighs less than a bone-stock M14 or M1A, and a LOT less than a Mk14 in an EBR stock, which people seem to love... so to me, the extra weight is well justified by the improved utility. On a carbine, you are so much lighter that 12 extra ounces seems like a VERY small price to pay for the utility of a bipod. Also, if you have it on a QD mount like a Larue or ARMS, you can pull it off and stow it if you don't anticipate using it, which is also what I do.

So what do you think? For a practical / tactical rifle, has the bipod rendered the shooting sling obsolete?

 

[H2O MAN]

How much does your SAM-R patterned AR, with the scope, bipod, AND an extra 30-round mag attached to the buttstock weigh?

 

[dispatch55126]

There will always be a need for shooting slings. Bipods work great...if you're in the terrain that allows their use. However, sitting, standing and/or uneven terrain still favors slings.

 

[taliv]

what if you're in tall grass?

 

[mavracer]

nope, both is better.

 

[wanderinwalker]

A hasty sling and a sitting or kneeling position works well when you can't get low enough for a bipod. Besides, within 100 yards, you shouldn't have to get prone to hit something, IMO.

The sitting position is incredibly stable; in smallbore, they frequently call it "prone upright", if that's an indicator of what can be done with it. Kneeling, not quite so stable, but a little higher to see over things in the way.

Now I agree that using a shooting sling is a little cumbersome. Having shot a lot of Highpower, I know how to use a 1907 sling and an M-1 sling very effectively. But the hasty sling is handier for field uses, as are improvised rests such as backpacks and tree branches.

Either way, a bipod is truly useful on a fixed-position rifle, IMO. Otherwise it's just one more thing to get in the way.

 

[30 cal slob]

no.

you'll still need to sling that rifle and move quickly into an offhand or kneeling position with your carbine.

a good adjustable two point sling is greatly helpful for AR/M4 carbine applications.

just my opinion, but you should get the vickers combat applications sling from blue force gear.

p.s. i like bipods, but if i'm shooting prone the support's gonna come from three points - the mag and the shooter's two elbows in the ground.

 

[elChupacabra!]

My AR, with scope, bipod and extra mag, weighs about 10.5 lbs, which is still about a pound less than a stock M1A, at least according to the data I've seen. Of course, it doesn't have to have the extra mag, which reduces weight further, and both the scope and bipod are on QD mounts, so it can get even skinnier very quickly.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

There will always be a need for shooting slings. Bipods work great...if you're in the terrain that allows their use. However, sitting, standing and/or uneven terrain still favors slings.

Amen.

Is there a link to the standard rules/course of fire/positions of an appleseed shoot? Or is it not standardized? Is a bipod really needed/expected?

 

[elChupacabra!]

Good points all around. Also FWIW, I strive to be able to hit from standing out to 200m under ideal (i.e. range) conditions, I was just using 100m as a figure to throw out there.

I love shooting from the sitting position and can consistently hit targets scaled to 300m from sitting, even without a sling... maybe adding one might give me even more accuracy?

But for me to get down into the prone position, I think I would do just as well to flip the bipod legs down as to work up a slung position.

Finally, my SAM-R has an adjustable scope with a red-dot optic on top -

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=380680&page=4

see post # 95 -

so it would be my one and only rifle if I needed to go out with one. It works from close to far, if not QUITE as handy as a carbine up close... but the Marines make do with a 20" M16A4, so I figure I can too

 

[elChupacabra!]

Premiumsauces,

I think the bipod is to be avoided at an Appleseed, with the sling being used instead. That's what got me thinking about this. I'm not sure exactly what the course of fire is, although I know there is plenty of prone shooting. Maybe others with more first-hand experience could shed more light?

 

[Wheeler44]

http://www.appleseedinfo.org/smf/
A link to all things Appleseed.

And no the bipod does not/will not make the shooting sling obsolete.

 

[H2O MAN]

How much does your SAM-R patterned AR, with the scope, bipod, AND an extra 30-round mag attached to the buttstock weigh?

 

[elChupacabra!]

H2Oman, see post #8 above - about 10.5lbs, but that can skinny down real quick if those things come off. I'm not married to any of them and have them easily added / removed so I can tailor the rifle to exactly what I want / need at the moment. When I'm shooting it at the range, it usually doesn't have the bipod on it for weight, but it can go on in just a few seconds. The extra mag also usually stays in the drag bag when I'm shooting it, but I like the idea of having a rifle self-sufficient with 60 rounds being JUST THE RIFLE if I don't have time to grab extra mags or a mag pouch or whatever.

 

[elChupacabra!]

Also, if you follow this link and see the rifle at

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=380680&page=4

post # 95, you'll see that the first picture (bad choice, black rifle on black table, I know, sorry!) shows the rifle without anything hanging off it. That is the rifle with BUIS and no extra weight, and it can go from one state to the other in less than a minute total, which includes prying and pulling on those stiff Larue levers

So just to be clear my rifle doesn't ALWAYS HAVE TO weight 10.5lbs... I was just trying to rationalize my addition of the 12oz bipod by comparing a worst-case scenario against an M1A, a very popular, but heavy, rifle.

 

[wanderinwalker]

Chupacabra, I think you'll find an empty M1A (or M-1 Garand) weighs about 9.5 pounds or so. Add some for a magazine full of .30-caliber rounds, but still not bad. Either rifle is quite shootable.

Actually, for a range-target rifle, pushing the weight up seems to help, so long as it is balanced.

As for weight for having to carry it around, I'm of the opinion that anything weighing over about 8 pounds starts to get heavy. See my "Why are ARs so heavy?" thread for more!

Oh yeah, and try out the hasty sling sometime.

 

[H2O MAN]

Understood.

Use this set up for comparison.

Weight as pictured with a loaded 20 round magazine is 13 lbs. and 14.0 Oz.

She weighs 12 lbs. and 9.6 Oz. with the bipod and weapon light removed.
The TangoDown bipod weighs 1 lb. and 0.2 Oz.
The magazine and 20 rounds of Port weighs 1 lb. and 10.0 Oz.


I hope that helps

 

[elChupacabra!]

wanderinwalker,

Well, I haven't tried walking around with the AR too terribly much, but I do suppose that after enough time humping that thing, I might get a bit tired of it... time to look into getting a carbine to "supplement" my current selection

And I agree about weight adding to accuracy for a range / target rifle, but when I'm standing offhand holding that rifle, it does tend to get heavy, which can become tiresome after time and is why I usually don't have all the trimmings on it.

 

[elChupacabra!]

H2Oman,

That sure is a beautiful rifle, you must be proud

I notice that your setup, like mine, features a bipod but no shooting sling (or did I mistake that for a 3-point sling? Maybe it can be used as a shooting sling?)

 

[elmerfudd]

On a field rifle, you're going to want a sling anyway so you may as well know how to use it. I agree that a bipod is more stable, but most of the time terrain won't permit it's use. I also don't bother with a loop sling. IMO, that's a target shooting technique and in real life by the time that you get that sling tightened up around your bicep your target has probably moved on and in a defensive position you might not want a rifle tied to your left arm.

 

[H2O MAN]

elChupacabra! H2Oman,

That sure is a beautiful rifle, you must be proud

I notice that your setup, like mine, features a bipod but no shooting sling (or did I mistake that for a 3-point sling?
Maybe it can be used as a shooting sling?)

Yeah, I take pride in my weapons. Thank you.

It is a 3 point sling that can be used as a shooting sling and much more.

 

[elChupacabra!]

elmerfudd,

That's exactly the logic I've applied to, specifically, a fighting rifle like an AR.

I know the situation would be much different for a hunting rifle, or even possibly a precision / sniper rifle, when the shooter would presumably have plenty of time to assume the ideal position, work into a sling, etc. But for a fighting rifle, it seems like the flexibility of being able to engage targets VERY quickly would be a little more important than the extra stability a sling, once properly donned, would yield.

Do soldiers and Marines really engage targets offhand beyond 150-200m without using some sort of natural support anyway? Because within 150-200m, I expect myself to have the skill to hit a target offhand WITHOUT any support or sling or anything anyway, and think that trying to add a sling to the mix would do nothing but slow me down, which is (presumably) a bad thing in a fighting rifle.

I mean, the guys who really use rifles like this to fight use bipods, not slings, right?

Thoughts?

 

[elChupacabra!]

Well, I take my last statement back. On the wikipedia page for the SAM-R,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Marine_Corps_Squad_Advanced_Marksman_Rifle

there are a couple pictures that do show SAM-Rs with a sling. So maybe some operators do use the sling... but are they the old-fashioned exception to the rule?

NOTE - I'm partially playing devil's advocate here. There are plenty of good answers already that convince me that the sling isn't dead... but I do wonder if it's dying, at least in combat / practical use, anyway.

 

[HorseSoldier]

So here is my question - with the growing popularity of bipods, has the sling become obsolete? Now please understand I'm not talking about competition shooting, I'm talking about fighting / utility rifles like an AR or something of that sort. It seems to me that, from a practical standpoint, if you are shooting on the move or at anything within say 100m, getting all wrapped up in a sling seems to be too cumbersome and more of a hinderance to mobility rather than an aid to accurate shooting. If you are shooting at a far target, have the opportunity to go prone and want to improve that prone position, the bipod seems easier, quicker, and more stable than using the sling. In either case, the sling seems like a losing proposition.

You're pretty much correct -- the sling is obsolete for combat shooting.

Depending on which particular course/school they went through, actual snipers probably (but not necessarily) received instruction in using a sling in precision shooting. However, they're not used much beyond the school house -- even for positions besides the prone, shooting sticks are generally much, much preferred over a sling. (Put another way, most sniper instructors I know would consider shooting sticks a necessary piece of kit for an M24 or other rifle; none would consider a sling to be.)

For your average combat arms type, slinging up is just pointless. Most engagements occur at ranges where it's irrelevant, and even for those guys who might be in the position to take longer range shots, slinging up a non-free floated M4 or M16 is going to hurt more than it helps.

 

[HorseSoldier]

It is a 3 point sling that can be used as a shooting sling and much more.

Doubles as a mall ninja decoder ring?

Three point slings are generally considered a pretty bad idea these days by most serious shooter types.