Have You Given Up On a SD Caliber?

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After years of taxpayer funded research the FBI has determined that in order for a gun/ammo combination to be good enough for their agents it needs to consistently penetrate to a depth of 12 inches or more. The .380 can't do that. The .22 LR can't do that, either. The operative word is "consistently" and shouldn't be taken lightly.

A firearm that fails to perform 50% of the time would be quickly taken out of consideration for a self defense weapon, so why not do the same for a cartridge? If you'll follow the link you will see the .380 JHP doesn't perform anywhere near the FBI penetration requirements.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs.htm"]http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs.htm

This does not mean that a person shot with a .380 won't die, and it doesn't mean a .380 won't take the fight out of an aggressor. What it implies is that as a defensive cartridge the .380 JHP is not to be depended on. Sadly they did not test a FMJ round. I would be interested in knowing if it met the criteria.

With all that said there is something else to be considered. At times a loud bang and a muzzle flash will be enough to take the fight out of an aggressor and a .380 meets these requirements. I know if somebody was shooting at me the first thing I would be looking for is a place to hide or a way to leave. It's when there is no place to hide and no way to leave that your firearm becomes important. At that point you will be saddened that you didn't find a way to conceal carry a howitzer.

Remember, a .380 on the hip beats a .44 magnum in the dresser drawer.
 
There is no way I would ever debate what is good for carry! for me it's a 1911 one shot and I have total control of any situation! PERIOD! I carry a DW Valor V-BOB, Ranger T 230 grn. ammo! if I take one shot I have total control of any Self Defense situation! dead or anywhere in the chest and shoulder area, and the perp is in my control. With lesser calibers there can be doubt with less than a perfect shot. the 45 acp has worked for years, and most of our military that are issued 9mm high capacities, are furnishing there own 1911 over the issued 9mm, for good reason!
I have never in 58 years thought about it, for me there is no debate, and this will be the last 1911 I ever carry, it has over 1600 rounds thru it and never a hickup! I have had it to Dave severns for a
1)tuned ejector makes for easy brass recovery when practicing, weekly!
2)Stainless was given the Hardhat Treatment, - most durable finish ever available!
3)Tactical Dehorn, - for comfortabl carry with no chance of hangups on clothing and such
4)Flush target Crown w/fitted HD Bushing, - accuracy out to 100 yards is fabulous!
All of this after a year and nearly 1500 rounds of zero fail to feeds, and yes I have close to 2K in it, but I am trusting my life to it as it is carried daily for a minimum of 10 -12 hours, and I always thought it was so irresponsible to hear people state that you don't want to put a lot of money in a carry gun, as they will confiscate it if you ever shoot someone with it. I can assure if I ever have to shoot someone I could care less how much money I had in it, I want to know what I carry will take control of any situation with one shot! and never fail! I also want to be able to make several controlled shots as quickly as I can pull the trigger, in the remote chance someone would ever encounter a need to defend themselves from more than one perp. The 1911 will allow that, and I really think those kind of encounters are avoidable, I don't put myself in a position for that to be a risk, but just in case, I have 9 of the most proven self defense rounds available ready, and a weapon that is as close to 100% reliable as is available. That is just my humble P.O.

_MG_0085.jpg

and if they would surprise me and take that from me, well at least its a 45acp. What can I say, my mind has always been maid up!! 45acp!!!! I didn't even know there was ever any other caliber????? :neener:
_MG_5260.jpg
 
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wildcatter109 said:
There is no way I would ever debate what is good for carry! for me it's a 1911 one shot and I have total control of any situation! PERIOD! I carry a DW Valor V-BOB, Ranger T 230 grn. ammo! if I take one shot I have total control of any Self Defense situation! dead or anywhere in the chest and shoulder area, and the perp is in my control. With lesser calibers there can be doubt with less than a perfect shot. the 45 acp has worked for years, and most of our military that are issued 9mm high capacities, are furnishing there own 1911 over the issued 9mm, for good reason!
I have never in 58 years thought about it, for me there is no debate, and this will be the last 1911 I ever carry, it has over 1600 rounds thru it and never a hickup! I have had it to Dave severns for a
1)tuned ejector makes for easy brass recovery when practicing, weekly!
2)Stainless was given the Hardhat Treatment, - most durable finish ever available!
3)Tactical Dehorn, - for comfortabl carry with no chance of hangups on clothing and such
4)Flush target Crown w/fitted HD Bushing, - accuracy out to 100 yards is fabulous!
All of this after a year and nearly 1500 rounds of zero fail to feeds, and yes I have close to 2K in it, but I am trusting my life to it as it is carried daily for a minimum of 10 -12 hours, and I always thought it was so irresponsible to hear people state that you don't want to put a lot of money in a carry gun, as they will confiscate it if you ever shoot someone with it. I can assure if I ever have to shoot someone I could care less how much money I had in it, I want to know what I carry will take control of any situation with one shot! and never fail! I also want to be able to make several controlled shots as quickly as I can pull the trigger, in the remote chance someone would ever encounter a need to defend themselves from more than one perp. The 1911 will allow that, and I really think those kind of encounters are avoidable, I don't put myself in a position for that to be a risk, but just in case, I have 9 of the most proven self defense rounds available ready, and a weapon that is as close to 100% reliable as is available. That is just my humble P.O.

_MG_0085.jpg

and if they would surprise me and take that from me, well at least its a 45acp. What can I say, my mind has always been maid up!! 45acp!!!! I didn't even know there was ever any other caliber????? :neener:
_MG_5260.jpg
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Uuumm..... OK... One shot... Total control...

You did say "One shot" correct?

Uuum .... OK... Total control huh?
 
Yeah right... like you can predict / guarantee the outcome of a stressful shooting situation. [Rolleyes]
 
Maybe you haven't been there before. I have, it wasn't a guess! with a little luck, you'll never know for sure!
 
I gave up 380 Auto and have come back to it. The reason is guns are very, very small and the cartridge is very shootable in these platforms.

I have given up on 40 S&W. It is not better than 9x19mm or 45 ACP and has more recoil.
 
I have had 2 encounters in the past several years where I was assaulted with a firearm, both times the idiot that presented the handgun at point blank range and had me dead to right, but with calm thinking and training, the tables were quickly turned, the one is in jail and the other tried to press charges as I was on his property when the incident took place and in his embarrassment tried to have me arrested, till he found out that when you draw a gun on someone that hasn't threatened your life, you should be prepared to be put in the same position, staring down a barrel of someone who is better trained than you,as he did, and retreat to his vehicle! If he would have pressed the issue I could have had him arrested for threatening me with a gun (assault with a deadly weapon) when there was no imminent threat to his life, that's the law here in Ohio, as I was trying to leave. I seen what was about to happen and part of being in a moment of truth is knowing how to put yourself in a position of being in charge of the situation, as it happens. I assure you, you will have a much better opportunity of controlling a situation when you can inflict 230 grains of half inch diameter hunks of lead into your perp, rather than with 115 grains at less than 3/8" hunks of lead! Has to do with physics, very elementary really! The point is having enough self control and training to take charge of a situation in the moment of stress,that should come before there is an opportunity for them to discharge their weapon, when you have been there a couple times you will understand! As I said from experience, you don't want to be there, it ain't no fun!
 
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Doc3402 The one prime reason to keep fireing rounds at the center of mass till you no longer have a threat. You can just as easily hit BGs firearm or gun hand too. First two or three rounds may hit nothing vital but untill a handgun hits the ground or the treat is no longer just that, keep shooting. Light bullet or heavy you better keep shooting as long as a target has a firearm faceing you.

What I also see in those gel test is nothing new. Some HP bullets work better than others so its up to each person to find the best for there needs.

I also see that some hp bullets no matter if it goes thru jeans or not you get expansion and jagged edges. You don't get that from a fmj bore hole that offers no extra anything if no bone is hit except a leaker.

It just happens that the round I have carried for some years now is the same georgia arms 124gr +P GD shown in the info you supplied. With that round I can still go thru blue jeans a end up with ragged 1/2" + to 5/8"+ expanded hp that still may pass thru the target and offer some tissue shock wave that differs from how a fmj acts in gel or tissue. I see no + for fmj ammo except for practice/fun
 
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hardluk1 said:
Doc3402 The one prime reason to keep fireing rounds at the center of mass till you no longer have a threat. You can just as easily hit BGs firearm or gun hand too. First two or three rounds may hit nothing vital but untill a handgun hits the ground or the treat is no longer just that, keep shooting. Light bullet or heavy you better keep shooting as long as a target has a firearm faceing you.

What I also see in those gel test is nothing new. Some HP bullets work better than others so its up to each person to find the best for there needs.

I also see that some hp bullets no matter if it goes thru jeans or not you get expansion and jagged edges. You don't get that from a fmj bore hole that offers no extra anything if no bone is hit except a leaker.

It just happens that the round I have carried for some years now is the same georgia arms 124gr +P GD shown in the info you supplied. With that round I can still go thru blue jeans a end up with ragged 1/2" + to 5/8"+ expanded hp that still may pass thru the target and offer some tissue shock wave that differs from how a fmj acts in gel or tissue. I see no + for fmj ammo except for practice/fun
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I understand what you are saying in your first paragraph, but do you really want to count on luck? Remember, if you are shooting at him, he will probably be shooting at you. Do want to need a half dozen rounds to stop your target or do you want to make the first one or two count?

Shock wave. Hmm. How can I put this? If you are aiming for the torso the majority of organ space in that region probably won't produce a shock wave, and even if it does the odds are against it being in an organ that will take your opponent out of the fight. It may kill him in an hour, a day, or a week, but do you really want to wait that long to end the fight?

Penetration: The only sure way to take your opponent out of the fight before he kills you is to ruin his spinal cord, the higher the better. If your opponent is shooting at you you will be shooting front to rear or from the side. You will have a lot more tissue to penetrate than you think. True, if you shoot him in the back a .380 or a 9mm has more than enough penetration to sever his spinal cord. Of course the jury may not see things your way when you are brought to trial for murder.

I'm glad you have confidence in your weapon of choice, and I really do wish you well if you ever need to use it, but after 3 decades of dealing with gunshot wounds I have made my decision based on what I have seen on the coroners table. Nothing is going to change my mind.
 
The one shot arguement always confuses me.
Other than a brain or spinal shot nothing is going to drop a BG instantly.
So my question is this, are you going to pause and observe the target after every shot?
Wait and see if the round does the job?
Wait and see if they stop violent action before firing another shot?
Fire a second shot and then begin the process all over again?

Or are you going to shoot until the BG drops?

My personal philosophy is to engage as rapidly and accurately as possible until the threat ceases. I wouldn't know if my first round was a heart shot because I would have already be triggering the second, third and fourth shot. Even a first round spinal shot would probably be a multi round shoot as I expect to fire off at least a couple more rounds before the brain catches up with the fact that the BG is collapsing.
 
Shooting until he drops is not the phrase I would use. Shoot until he stops suits me better.

My personal philosophy is to engage as rapidly and accurately as possible until the threat ceases.
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And it's a good philosophy, but keep in mind that returning fire at your opponent and missing may still take the fight out of him. Most of the punks that prey on other people are cowards and bullies. If you can show that you're not going to take their crap it may be enough to end things right there. If that doesn't happen, by all means continue until the threat is over.
 
Doc3402 said:
After years of taxpayer funded research the FBI has determined that in order for a gun/ammo combination to be good enough for their agents it needs to consistently penetrate to a depth of 12 inches or more. The .380 can't do that.
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You are missing out on one key element of that FBI statement.
It requires 12 inches or more of penetration AFTER defeating barriers.
Barriers such as sheet metal, auto glass, drywall etc.

As for your other statement, a .380 FMJ will penetrate 26 inches of ballistic gel. If penetration is what you want, a FMJ .380 will go deep.
 
I didn't see a FMJ in .380 tested on the page I linked to, but if you have some more tests on another page I would love to see them. Some of the ammo on my linked page isn't available around here so I may be able to find test results on ammo available locally. Thanks
 
Pretty much everything except 9mm.

One shot stopping power is a myth. A .45 is not big enough to make up for a bad shot and a good shot with a 9mm is just as good as any other modern defensive load in any other caliber.
 
I gave up on .380 when I got my Kel Tec 9 16 years ago. I pocket the 9 just as easily in a front pocket, see no need for the .380. I still have it as a go to if I need it. I didn't sell it. The 9 makes twice the energy with a bigger bullet, is more accurate, and is easier to shoot.
 
Doc It looks like your biggest problem here is you read and absorb everthing but seem to have little or no real world time killing anything . You know some hunting to see how different bullets calibersl designs really work would help. You can not get a full understanding unless you have seen first hand how different bullets types work on live game. For some of us a fmj is a play, practice and fun round only. A flat tip bullet design in a bhn level of 5 to 10 acts very different in tissue compaired to one of 20. Would you say most BG use mostly fmj bullets ? Man it does not matter if its a 45 or 9mm with fmj. You better hit something of interest. My 9mm at better than 1180fps with a 124gr GD hp even passing thru 4 layers of blue jeans tends to average with better damage than a 45 fmj that some use. Now slow that bullet down from 1180 to 1225fps that a 3 1/2" to 4" barrel can make and see what it will do to a standard pressure 9mm at 1000fps in a short barrel and it will not work as well. Guys that go out and buy the bargain basement hp ammo in caliber?? may not open under the best of conditions even in gel and not act much better than a fmj like with a pmc cheap hp stuff. You may see and fix 25 years of bullet caused trama damage but with out knowing the bullet brand and bullet type, how fast it was moveing with it hit it really does not mean much.

fbi test!! What the FBI needs for a bullet design has little to do with what makes a great defence bullet. What do you you shoot, a 45acp. Ever tried flat tipped low hardness lead?? How well do you think a 45acp 225gr pure lead with a flat tip will do in a fbi test at 850fps? Not very good. Now Do you think it will do to a BG with a hoody and a t-shirt on. This is a very diedly combo. But the fbi would never think of useing it. You should see what that same load can do to a deer out of a 45 at only 850fps at 25yards. Very diedly.

Now the 380 would not be a top choice for me but when in shorts and t-shirt, better than a pocket full of rocks. Just pick the best bullet for the job. Don't buy cost wise.
 
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^Good post. I think many consider/use fmj because the military uses it (golly, it's gotta be good!), it makes about the same holes in paper, it's cheap and they are ignorant.
For heavens sake people, just pop a measly rabbit or so with a good SWC or HP and then some harball. The differences are so marked you won't fail but see the folly of using ball. The same thing happens to the larger creatures.
 
Certaindeaf said:
^Good post. I think many consider/use fmj because the military uses it (golly, it's gotta be good!), it makes about the same holes in paper, it's cheap and they are ignorant.
For heavens sake people, just pop a measly rabbit or so with a good SWC or HP and then some harball. The differences are so marked you won't fail but see the folly of using ball. The same thing happens to the larger creatures.
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Actually since your bent on this goofy rabbits = self defense test media I was at the range the other day when a cotton tail hopped out of the bushes next to my target stand.

I put a 115 g fmj through him and he was dead quick enough to still be twitching as I skinned him out.

I also put two TWO 124g +p gold dots through a funny acting skunk a feew weeks ago. I recovered one perfectly expanded gold dot from laying on the hard dirt. The skunk on the other hand left the scene.

A few years back I expended an entire box of cor bon +p 90g jhp's for 380 auto shooting armidillos. Not one single bullet exited or stopped one of the panzerlizards from making it to their burrow to die.

The moral of the story. With handguns the only thing that really matters is what you hit and to believe otherwise is actually funny deluded pathetic bit.




posted via that mobile app with the sig lines everyone complaints about
 
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