HD handgun for a petite woman?

[Elm Creek Smith]

It was probably last year, but I saw a six-shot S&W Centennial-style J-Frame in .32 H&R Mag. Charter may have something similar (don't know for sure). The only reason I mention it is because Riley Gilmore's wife has tiny hands and cannot reach the trigger on a K-Frame. She uses a J-Frame for her carry gun. If this lady's hands are very small, it may work for her.

I think everyone else has pretty much covered things. My wife likes a 4 inch L-Frame.

ECS

 

[Mad Man]

Not Just Shooting

What often is forgotten in these type of threads is that there's more to owning a handgun than just the ability to shoot it.

Can she maintain it? I.e. take it apart and re-assemble it for cleaning?

Most people can be taught to shoot a 1911, Glock, etc. But it takes a certain amount of strength and dexterity to take one apart and put it back together -- something the more experienced among us often take for granted.

Even loading certain magazines may be difficult for some people.

 

[Neo-Luddite]

.38 spl Ladysmith mod. 36 w/ 3-4" barrel.

My wife if 5' and 110 lbs---she can shoot a larger gun, I can too. For the scenario you describe, a .38 spl revolver is the way to go; the loads can be as light as needed---and options for .38 ammo are many. Simple, hammer tough construction, fail-safe, smooth trigger; enough power for most defensive situations.

 

[pax]

Mad Man

It's so much harder for a guy with his big, thick fingers and poor fine motor skills to manage those little parts that some guys don't realize how much easier it is for a girl to learn that stuff.

Honestly! Of course she'd have to learn how to maintain it. If she gets a .357/.38 she'll have to learn how to really scrub the chambers, how to remove the cylinder from the frame for cleaning, how to protect her pretty wood grips from cleaning solvents, etc etc. If she gets a Glock, she'll have to somehow summon up the massive strength and extreme dexterity it takes to pull a trigger, move the slide back 1/8 of an inch, and pull down on a simple lever. If she gets a 1911, she'll have to build up her muscles so she can pull out a pin and remove parts ...

None of this sounds terribly difficult here, does it? Of course she'll have to learn it. But I betcha she knows how to operate the controls on her washing machine, which buttons to press on the microwave to warm up a cup of coffee, and how to put gasoline into her own automobile. She was capable of coping with those strength-intensive, dexterity-demanding tasks by the time she became an adult, so it's reasonable to suppose that with a little education she might even be able to manage the horrendous complexities of a modern firearm, too.

pax

 

[Barbara]

how to protect her pretty wood grips from cleaning solvents

Hey, what about her nail polish? Those solvents are hell on a manicure.

If she's lucky, she'll find a good man willing to help her out by cleaning her gun for her!

 

[Socrates]

No pics, no fun.

 

[Mad Man]

• It's so much harder for a guy with his big, thick fingers and poor fine motor skills to manage those little parts that some guys don't realize how much easier it is for a girl to learn that stuff.

  
  What I wrote applies to both men and women. I know guys who have trouble with this stuff, too. Sorry if I offended your sensibilities.
  
  
• As I said, this is something the experienced folk among us take for granted. At least try to think about how complicated it can be for somebody who isn't a firearms enthusiast like us.
  
  It is not the same as simply being able to pull the slide back to chamber a round.
  
  "Take your thumb, and wrap it around the grip. No, just the thumb. Not through the trigger guard, around the back. Now grip the top of the slide with your other fingers. No, with your right hand. Keep your thumb where it is..."
  
  
• In my limited experience helping new gun owners, and my vast experience of spending way too much time reading these forums over the years, I don't recall this point being brought up at all.
  
  57 posts into this thread, and nobody has mentioned it so far. Maybe I'm the only one who thinks it's an important consideration?
  
  Instead, people prefer to discuss models, calibers, etc. As usual.
  
  

• If she gets a .357/.38 she'll have to learn how to really scrub the chambers, how to remove the cylinder from the frame for cleaning, how to protect her pretty wood grips from cleaning solvents, etc etc.

  
  Nowhere did I dismiss the idea of an automatic. Just keep in mind that some are easier to take apart than other. E.g., the Browning Hi-Power has a mechanism to lock the slide back before removing the slide-release lever. Berettas, Sigs, and the Springfield XD use a rotating take-down lever, that require much less strength and dexterity than disassembling a Glock or 1911.
  
  
  

• But I betcha she knows how to operate the controls on her washing machine, which buttons to press on the microwave to warm up a cup of coffee, and how to put gasoline into her own automobile. She was capable of coping with those strength-intensive, dexterity-demanding tasks by the time she became an adult, so it's reasonable to suppose that with a little education she might even be able to manage the horrendous complexities of a modern firearm, too.

  
  Pushing buttons does not take the same strength or dexterity as maintaining a firearm. And you know it.
  
  Will a new shooter maintain their new handgun often enough to remember how to do what is required? Or will the new handgun simply sit in the nightstand drawer, except for the once-or-twice a year it's taken out to the range?
  
  Using your microwave analogy, how many people do you know are "12 o'clock flashers?" Every appliance in their home is flashing 12:00 because they haven't bothered to learn (or re-learn) to set the clocks on their VCRs that are in their homes every day. Yet some how, we expect people to become -- and remain -- proficient in the use of firearms, even though access to the nearest range may be so inconvenient that it could discourage regular visits.
  
  Unlike guns, our culture has not been conditioning people to be intimidated (for lack of a better word) by the mystique of cars, microwaves, and dishwashers. Which makes regular training -- not just the initial instruction -- in all aspects of owning a particular gun more important.

 

[Barbara]

I'm still missing what part of maintaining a handgun is any more difficult than maintaining anything else?

No one acts surprised when a woman can lug a sleeping child, a giant handbag, and 3 bags of groceries into the house, but is skeptical that same woman can pull back the slide of a pistol.

No one is amazed when a woman can do intricate needlepoint or follow a recipe that calls for 30 different ingredients but they sure are shocked that she might be able to figure out how to pull a slide back or follow cleaning instructions.

Perhaps the problem is your perception, rather than our abilities?

 

[pax]

What I wrote applies to both men and women. I know guys who have trouble with this stuff, too. Sorry if I offended your sensibilities.

My mistake. I thought that since the thread was titled, "HD handgun for a petite woman?" you were making a stab at answering the actual question. Didn't realize you were speaking in generalities.

Because some people are stupid, the argument goes, we should plan for a newcomer to not learn anything.

Especially if that newcomer is a woman, her (supposed and assumed) reluctance to learn anything at all becomes the deciding factor in her choice of a gun. (Read back through this thread with that in mind, and see if it isn't the case!)

I'm not buying it.

Here's how to take down and reassemble a Glock, by the way: http://www.corneredcat.com/GunCare/clean-glock.aspx It is very simple, very easy, and requires no particular strength (considerably less than, say, racking the slide -- which is also a function of technique rather than strength). If you perceive either of these to be difficult, it is most likely so simply because no one has shown you the easy way to do it yet.

It's a training issue, NOT a strength or dexterity issue.

Which makes regular training -- not just the initial instruction -- in all aspects of owning a particular gun more important.

Well, I absolutely agree with your bottom line here. And that makes your insistence that a newcomer either can't or won't learn basic firearms maintenance on these simple machines all the more ironic and puzzling.

pax

 

[golden]

No Oc Spray Or Knife

In an earlier post, it was suggested OC SPRAY or a KNIFE be used as a substitute for a gun. Both require training to be effective.

The OC SPRAY is issued by my agency and I like many officers refuse to carry it.
It has several drawbacks, the most serious is that IT MIGHT NOT WORK. I observed at least 2 officers being sprayed with it and both were uneffected. One was even sprayed a second time just to make sure. The second blast made his eyes water, but he was still upright and mobile.
The second big problem with OC SPRAY is BACKWASH. It can come back on the user. If you spray into the wind or the target is very close, it can bounce back.
What is the reaction to OC of the user? It is very important to know this. If you do not like spices, this stuff can incapacitate you. Then what do you do. Also, if you use it in a confined space like a car, hallway, bathroom or whatever, the atmosphere in the room can be full of it.
IF YOU DO DECIDE TO USE, GET TRAINING ON IT. IT IS JUST LIKE A GUN IN THAT IF YOU DO NOT KNOW HOW TO USE IT, IT CAN BE MORE DANGEROUS TO THE USER THAN THE TARGET.

The same thing applies to the KNIFE except that you have to come in contact distance to an agressor. NOT GOOD! Also, to be effective, you need training. Also, small knives are best at slashing, not stabbing where there effect will be much less than a large knife like the USMC KA-BAR. It will not incapacitate instantly.

I would choose an ASP type collapible baton. These will put someone down immediately. Again, you need training to use it properly. In my experience, it has the least drawbacks. It is my choice for non-lethal carry.

If you have a choice, go with a gun of adequate power and train with it.

If not and the baton is out, try getting one of the aluminum flashlights like a MAGLIGHT and get training is using it as a baton. They are not normally classified as a weapon and can be brutally effective. I know of at least one case where they were used with fatal consequenses.

ABOVE ALL, WHATEVER THE CHOICE, GET THE TRAINING TO GO WITH IT THAT WILL MAKE IT EFFECTIVE.

 

[Socrates]

The woman in question never posted. Let's draw up a hypo that will get folks to fight with each other, about someone that isn't even present.

HD handgun for a petite woman?
Ok, here's the deal. This woman's husband passed away and she wants something to protect herself (I was very happy to hear this). Ultimately I would suggest a shotgun, but she feels that long guns are too unwieldy and that it could be taken away during a conflict. So that leaves us with a handgun.

I really would like to see her choose a revolver, but I think .38/.357 would be too much for her. I know ruger makes a gp100 in .32 H&R mag, but I'll bet the gp is too big for her small hands and I don't know about the recoil. I think the lady smith line from smith and wesson would work well, but not in .38/.357. Any suggestions for a small gripped gun that is fairly light and doesn't have much recoil?

I was also thinking maybe glock 9mm? semi auto to soak up a little recoil and no safeties to fumble with. The concern is the glock's blocky grip. The other thing is that I'm not sure about 9mm recoil, she's never shot one so I'm not sure that she could handle it. Sounds like a range trip is in order.

Yes, take the person to the range, give them a bunch of guns and loads, and let them draw their own conclusions, and, ask THEIR OWN QUESTIONS.
To be specific, the Glock 26 is an excellent choice, if you can hold on. 10 rounds, and, with 125 grain hot loads averages around 1200 fps. Excellent 27 you might look at with 135 and 155 grain bullets. Over 170 grains, and things start recoiling and moving too slow. You might also let her try the 45ACP Glock 30 and 36. Of all the Glocks, the 36 has the smallest grip that I know of. The 30 is very accurate, and, if you use light bullet loads, the recoil is light, since it operates at 13k-17k pressure, vs. the .40's 35k pressure. As the person develops, they can move to heavier bullets.

And, when all is said and done, don't forget to let her try as light a caliber as she wants, like .32 and .380, because with solids, they will penetrate enough.

Final bit of food for thought on S&W J frames. They are REALLY hard to shoot, double action, at least for me. Trigger has to be over 12 pounds on my 360PD, and, the front site moves all over the target as I draw the trigger. YMMV depending on hand size, but, they are NOT easy guns to hit stuff with, DA. Making sure the hands match the grips is vital. Also, if she can carry a 3-4" barrel, in both revolver or auto, the ballistic benefits are worth it. BIG difference in velocity between 2" and 3" barrels. Model 60 S&W comes to mind.

Also, remember that often the flashbang from a snubby can be more effective then the bullet.

Now, is this a CCW gun, or, a home defense gun? Can she get a CCW in her area or not? What is the biggest gun she feels comfortable carrying weight wise, and size wise?

 

[woad_yurt]

How about one of these? My girlfriend loves it. Mild recoil, no safeties to get in the way, a .38 S&W Iver Johnson. You can get a new-like one really cheap. This one cost $89.00 online. It's a natural pointer, too.

 

[jaydubya]

My previous: Will she shoot for center of mass? Or will she aim for the arms and legs, and (as someone above mentioned) have the handgun used on her

Springmom replied: Why do you think she would do this? Where did THAT idea come from? The woman wants a gun for home defense. I suspect that pretty much speaks to her willingness to use the gun effectively.....

My response: I base this on personal experience with my daughter. She wanted a handgun for home defense. I let her handle several of mine and, knowing my daughter, asked her what she would do with one if she had to fire it at someone. She responded that she would shoot for the legs. I stated that would not do, that the handgun probably would end up being used on her. She refused to consider shooting for center of mass, so I advised her not to get a gun. Springmom, you are long past this hangup, so perhaps you have forgotten how many of your friends think like my daughter. To balance things out, her husband is even less likely to shoot for center of mass. I took him to a range and let him fire my Hi Power. I think he closed his eyes, because the bullets went everywhere. The range master asked us to leave. I agreed; sad, but true.

On the other hand, while I was away on a cruise during the Vietnam War, my wife once used her "surrogate husband", a .380 Colt Pocket Model, to scare off two would-be intruders. Had they not fled, she was fully prepared to shoot to kill. My older daughter, a former Peace Corp member, would have no compunctions either. We are, regardless of sex, all individuals. Thus my question about shooting for center of mass or for the legs.

Springmom, I have read many of your contributions, and I respect you. Peace.
Cordially, Jack