Heavy vs. Light Bullets

Status
Not open for further replies.

blinkjr

Member
Joined
Sep 29, 2011
Messages
48
Hi all. New guy here. Just purchased my first handgun (Sig SP2022 in 9mm) and am looking to learn. I have read quite a few thread/posts on which caliber you need to shoot. I have read just as many about ammo brands. What I can't seem to find is a discussion of bullet weight (115/124 grain vs 147 grain for 9mm). Can anyone shed some light on the advantages and disadvantages of each end of the scale? Especially when it comes to SD/HD rounds. Also how each affects recoil.

Thanks in advance. I have already learned a lot coming here!
 
Congrats on the new gun-I finally replaced my bed gun of many years (Sigma) with an SP2022-the Sigma's night sights needed replacing, so I just used that money towards the SP2022.

Can't help you much on the ammo, and arguments are sure to follow.
Only thing 'definitive' I've seen is a letter from Winchester recommending the use of Ranger T in 147 grain for short barreled guns-more time in the barrel allows more time for a complete powder burn, and their new series has been redesigned to work over a wider velocity range.
Most of the 'experts' seem to come down on the side of light and fast, but as the above shows, bullet designs are always changing the rules?

I usually just stick with whatever I can find, between Ranger T, Federal HST, and Speer Gold Dots-and stay away from those darn 20/25 round 'consumer' boxes!

BTW-my SP2022 bed gun is currently loaded with Federal 124 gr. HST, although not for any particular reason (over Winchester and Speer).

Check your PM!
 
A number of experts, Duncan MacPherson comes to mind, recommend heavy for caliber. Doc Roberts has compiled a list of ammunition that meets FBI protocol in the service calibers.

On a separate note, CHP reports better shooting results with 40/180 than 357mag/125. But to make this more interesting, a number of agencies such as North Carolina Highway Patrol and Texas DPS are getting good results with 357SIG/125gr Gold Dots.

One of my favorite carries in a G17 is the Ranger 127gr+P+; however, a Browning Hi - Power gets loaded with 124gr +P or 147gr Gold Dots.
 
The 147gr bullets have less velocity than the 115 and 125gr bullets but the weight gives greater penetration and % velocity retained at range. The slower hp bullets don't open up as fast or as violently as a faster bullet but they don't deflect as easy. 147 gr bullets are generally sub sonic and therefore don't produce a sonic crack when fired so they are very quit in suppressed weapons where 115 and 125's are generally over the speed of sound.

Lighter weight bullets have higher velocity and the hp's open up faster and more violently but they deflect easier. In the 9mm the 125 and 115gr bullets at the highest velocity has better terminal effect by a small amount in the Marshall Sannow studies.
 
My personal opinion is that it is very bullet design dependent. Some designs are better in lighter/faster variations and some are better in heavier/slower variations. Pretty much stick to the list below and you will be good. If possible try to buy in 50 round boxes as per round will typically be less.

The following loads all demonstrate outstanding terminal performance and can be considered acceptable for duty/self-defense use:

9 mm:
Barnes XPB 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)
Federal HST 124 gr +P JHP (P9HST3)
Remington Golden Saber 124 gr +P JHP bonded (GSB9MMD)
Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP
Winchester Partition Gold 124 gr JHP (RA91P)
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)
Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)
Winchester 147 gr bonded JHP (RA9B/Q4364)
 
Thanks for the replies. Now the other part of the question I forgot to ask. Will I notice a difference if I practice with 115 gr FMJ, but load 147 gr JHP for SH/FD? Is there a noticeable difference in kick/felt recoil?
 
I almost always go with heavier bullet in most calibers. The 9mm is one I don't. The 124 gr is my bullet of choice for the 9's. For some reason my guns just like them the best.

As for recoil not much difference.
 
A lot of people will tell you that light is better. I have found that heavy is always better. If I told you that you were going to be in a car crash and you got to pick what kind of vehicle was going to broadside you - either a Honda Civic or a Peterbuilt semi with a maximum load - which one one would you choose? Don't worry about recoil, it really is no big deal. Unless you have some kind of medical condition.
 
I like the "middle" weights. Get the speed of the light weights (for JHP performance) and the weight for penetration.
 
When the 147gr loads first became popular it was based almost solely on the fact that the were being used by the SEALs. The problem was that they were using them in suppressed SMGs, not pistols. In pistols those early loads were noticeably inferior to the common 115gr or 124gr offerings.

Current 147gr loads have been vastly improved but I still see no need pressing to switch from the lighter bullets I've been using for the last couple decades.
 
Heavy for caliber will generally offer better penetration, faster (lighter) will offer flatter trajectory and increased chance of some sort of "shock" wounding/incapacitation effect. I'm certainly no expert, but I've always thought that, if one wants a heavy bullet, 9mm is a strange caliber choice to begin with. It's a light-and-fast round by design... why fight it?
 
ATLDave raises a good point. 9mm and .357 Magnum are inherently high-velocity/light bullet rounds. If you want weight, .45ACP and .44 Special are a better choice.
 
Good pistol, if you like DA pistols, Sig really has the best DA trigger in a production auto I think. They are awful smooth. For your ammo, try and stay away from the 147gr. Some folks like 'em, but they are going too slow in the pistol. The heavier 9mm bullets work really great though in carbines.

For pistol, the 115-124 and even the 127 grain bullets are where it's at. If they don't expand, they all, 115-147gr., make a 9mm hole, but if they do expand they make a bigger one, and since the lighter bullets have greater velocity and more kinetic energy (and here kinetic energy plays a direct role in the transfer of energy that causes the bullet to deform) they tend to expand greater and make a larger diameter crush wound inside the target. 147gr. is known to not expand and to even over penetrate due this combined with increased momentum, whereas there is lesser weights tend to shed more energy inside the target and not overpenetrate.

Now, 115 or 124? I feel that what the 124's lose in velocity, they gain in penetration due to increased momentum inside the target. Also, I find they are more accurate at the range, possibly due to the small increase in ballistic coefficient, or possibly just due to my particular pistols and loads.

Whatever you get, 115 or 124 (or 127) you want a quality jacketed hollowpoint loaded to +P or +P+ specifications (make sure your pistol can digest these, I'm pretty sure the Sig can handle the +P but you may want to make sure +P+ is okay in it) and you want it loaded by a quality manufacturer. So which one? I won't start a war or debate on this, I'll just say that you should get the one that is consistently reliable in you pistol, somewhat available to you, and that you feel confident in. The last, "one you feel confident in," may be baseless for criteria, but goes a long way in your confidence overall that the weapon will perform as expected. As long as you follow the above criteria in selection, 115-124 or 127 grains, +P or +P+ loading, reputable major manufacturer, your pistol likes it, YOU like it, well, then you can't really go wrong.

Personally, I use Winchester Ranger T-Series 127gr. +P+, part number RA9TA, 50 rounds. It is basically the new black talon round, but not black. They work well in my Glocks and are fairly accurate with good velocity. They are also easily available just down the street. Winchester makes several different 9mm Ranger loadings in T-Series as well as Silvertip loadings, from standard to +P to +P+ loadings. Illinois State Patrol used the 115gr. +P+ Ranger (not T-Series) with good effect for two decades. They work well in my Glock too. Other good ones are the Speer Gold Dot +P, Corbon +P, I think Federal has the HST in +P, and I'm sure there are others. Hornady has the most accurate bullet, the XTP, but it isn't loaded that fast. Generally the non +P and +P+ loadings are not the most accurate. I get best accuracy in 9mm by the way, at about 1050-1100fps in a G17 (little faster in G17L) when using 115-124gr. bullets (and XTP's in particular). Because +P and +P+ cause much more wear and tear on the pistol over time, I limit their use. I'll "qualify" with them from time to time, train with some occasionally, and overall, shoot a few hundred per year. The rest of the time I shoot much lighter reloads in the same weight.

Stay away from gimmicky stuff, boutique manufacturers, reloads, etc. The all copper bullets are getting popular, but there isn't much evidence about their performance, except for the fact that they are loaded lighter due to the increased length of the bullet --because of this and because they are very expensive, I'd stick with quality JHP's in hot loadings. Handloads would be okay IF you are comfortable loading +P and +P+ loadings in 9mm. I'm not, so I buy +P and +P+.

Hope this helps. Rest of you don't bother dragging me into a debate, I hate how these kinds of threads evolve, I just wanted to give the OP some decent advice since he said he's new that he can't go wrong with, and I won't be checking back in on this thread anyway.
 
Jest one I've got filed away in my tech section on ammo.
 

Attachments

  • Ranger RA9T FAQs.doc
    150 KB · Views: 37
I use 147gr loads for my subcompacts and short-barreled 9s and 124-127gr loads for my service-sized 9s.
 
Regardless of caliber, I just go with a "heavy-for-caliber" premium JHP design that produces a muzzle velocity of 800-1000 fps.
 
I'll be a little contrarian and recommend you try different loadings in your pistol and look at actual performance. The reason is many years ago, I did something similar and what I found was surprising.

At that time, I selected several top brands of 9mm in different weights and chose to shoot them at extra heavy walled CMU's (aka Cinder Blocks) to see how they performed. To my surprise the best performing bullet was the Remington 115 gr. JHP which penetrated both sides of the CMU, leaving a 9mm hole on entry and a 1" hole on the off side. The 124/125's and the 147's pentrated the first wall of the CMU, but were stopped by the off-side wall and I found them in the void between the walls.

Now ammo has changed a lot since then and one can find heavier bullet loads that will pass my CMU test. But the bottom line is to find out what performs to your expectations out of your gun.
 
I'll be a little contrarian and recommend you try different loadings in your pistol and look at actual performance. The reason is many years ago, I did something similar and what I found was surprising.

At that time, I selected several top brands of 9mm in different weights and chose to shoot them at extra heavy walled CMU's (aka Cinder Blocks) to see how they performed. To my surprise the best performing bullet was the Remington 115 gr. JHP which penetrated both sides of the CMU, leaving a 9mm hole on entry and a 1" hole on the off side. The 124/125's and the 147's pentrated the first wall of the CMU, but were stopped by the off-side wall and I found them in the void between the walls.

Now ammo has changed a lot since then and one can find heavier bullet loads that will pass my CMU test. But the bottom line is to find out what performs to your expectations out of your gun.
Believe me, I wouldn't have said what I said without some knowledge of what I am using and saying.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=7484901&postcount=6

As for shooting through cinderblock, I don't believe that I would rely on any service caliber to defeat that barrier even if I had tested them for that application. Not surprised at the 9mm 115 grain JHP beating the others through hard barriers since that is usually an energy-based relationship (the lighter, faster offerings tend to excel in that regard against thin hard shells) whereas the "heavy for caliber" offerings are better suited to soft tissue penetration, a momentum-based relationship.
 
The 9mm bullets left holes in the cinder blocks and did not successfully create fracture lines in the blocks?
 
Will I notice a difference if I practice with 115 gr FMJ, but load 147 gr JHP for SH/FD? Is there a noticeable difference in kick/felt recoil?
Yes, you will. Different POA/POI relationship, too.

My favoite 9mm is the 115 gr all-copper HP (Barnes DPX or Tac-XP), loaded by Double Tap, Federal, ASYM and Wilson.

A few decades ago, many pistols would not reliably cylce the sub-sonic 147s. That's generally no longer a problem. However, it does emphasize that, whatever you "think" you want to use, you'd be wise to put at least 100 jam-free rounds through your pistol before trusting it. 200 is better.

Good luck.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top