Heller reply to petition for cert.

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Isn't tomorrow (5 Oct) "Put up or Shut up" day as to whether the USSC will hear it or not ?????

From reading the petition, it looks like Gura is going with narrow "Keep" argument. Can "Bear" be to far behind ????? :D
 
October 5th was the cut-off for the BRIEF IN RESPONSE TO
PETITION FOR CERTIORARI. I think the next step is for the clerk of the court to distribute the case to committee on a specified date at which point the supremes vote on whether or not to grant certiorari.
 
i like this part:

The
question in this case is not merely whether the city
may ban handguns as a subclass of firearm; the
question is whether a law that prevents people from
keeping functional firearms – of any kind – in their
homes violates the “right to keep and bear arms”
recognized by the Second Amendment. Thus, unlike
Petitioners’ formulation, the question presented by
Respondents fairly and accurately reflects all the
laws adjudicated by the courts below.
 
He really gives them both barrels (so to speak).

V. Citizens Under Criminal Attack Are NotRequired to Stand By and Die Awaiting Police Protection.
Petitioners correctly note that the Second Amendment “does not require the District to stand by while its citizens die.” Pet. at 30 (emphasis added). Yet the city consistently fights to secure its right to stand by while its citizens are victimized by crime. For example, the city has successfully defended its
right to “stand by while its citizens” are raped, kidnapped from their homes, and further abused.

The city has likewise successfully defended its right to “stand by” in the face of the worst urban rioting in our nation’s history.

The city has even defended its right to “stand by while its citizens die” when the perpetrator is a police officer.

In the meantime, people need not stand by and die while waiting for Petitioners to provide a safe city in which to live. The Second Amendment guarantees to citizens something that Petitioners have expressly and consistently disclaimed any legal obligation to provide: an effective means of preserving their lives.
 
I. Basis for Cert: There is a contradiction between courts, and it needs to be addressed.

II. Use of Miller to demonstrate role of 2a., militia, and arms.

III. Broad descriptions of all the courts which find individual 2a readings. Includes court, founding fathers, and modern scholars/interpreters who read individual right (counteracting DC's claim that no one in the history of the 2a reads an individual right).

IV. Gura really takes DC to task for their "creative presentation" of the question at hand, in trying to make the assertion that "oh, rifles and shotguns aren't outlawed!" Besides proving that they are indeed outlawed (as per DC's refusal to allow them after Gura's petition last month), Gura hammers them with proof that rendering a firearm non-functional, regardless of the kind of firearm, destroys the 2a right.

V. - Takes on the question of whether a handgun lies under 2a protection, under Miller and militia standards.

VI. Takes up the "pseudo-science" of social science arguments, proving a) it hasn't helped DC's society anyways, b) you can't just go screwing with the constitution because you think you have a better way of doing things, and c) takes DC's effectiveness in preventing crimes to task, forcing the citizens to endure hardship, caught between the rock of a) the impossibility of law enforcement to be there all the time, and the hard spot of b) not having firearms for themselves for protection.

VII. Uses DC's own words against them to prove that "citizens aren't required to stand by while its citizens die."

This is perhaps my favorite part, rhetorically.

Petitioners correctly note that the Second
Amendment “does not require the District to stand by
while its citizens die.” Pet. at 30 (emphasis added).
Yet the city consistently fights to secure its right to
stand by while its citizens are victimized by crime.

For example, the city has successfully defended its
right to “stand by while its citizens” are raped, kidnapped
from their homes, and further abused. Warren v. District of Columbia, 444 A.2d 1 (D.C. 1981) (en
banc). The city has likewise successfully defended its
right to “stand by” in the face of the worst urban
rioting in our nation’s history. Westminster Investing
Co. v. G.C. Murphy Co., 434 F.2d 521 (D.C. Cir. 1970).
The city has even defended its right to “stand by
while its citizens die” when the perpetrator is a police
officer. Morgan v. District of Columbia, 468 A.2d 1306
(D.C. 1983) (en banc). Indeed, the city has asserted its
right to “stand by while its citizens die” in the course
of volunteering their assistance to the police. Butera
v. District of Columbia, 235 F.3d 637 (D.C. Cir. 2001).
Petitioners cannot be begrudged their arguments
that they are under no general obligation to protect
citizens from violent crime.

As a matter of tort law,
Petitioners’ position is consistent with accepted
notions of sovereign immunity and the public duty
doctrine. And as a matter of constitutional law, citizens
do not enjoy any positive right to police protection.
DeShaney v. Winnebago County Dep’t of Social
Servs., 489 U.S. 189 (1989); Castle Rock, 545 U.S.
748.

Petitioners’ sincere desire to reduce violent crime
is unquestioned. And Petitioners’ consistent assertion
of immunity for failing to police the city is valid
policy, borne of the regrettable truth that even the
best police force cannot perfectly protect the general
population against violence. Accordingly, the people’s
need for Second Amendment rights is inevitably, regardless of Petitioners’ best intentions, a matter of life and death.

Because of Petitioners’ demonstrated – even if
understandable – inability to police the entire city,
local government cannot substitute for the right of
individuals to keep functional firearms in their
homes. Washington, D.C. is, after all, the same city
whose police chief once lowered his aspirations to
solve only 50.9 percent of homicides because “t’s
more encouraging. . . . You get these stretch goals [65
percent], and when you don’t even come near it, you
get hammered for it.” David A. Fahrenthold, D.C.
Police Cut Goals on Closing Homicides: Ramsey Calls
New Target for Solving Cases Realistic, WASHINGTON
POST, June 25, 2002, at B1.7 The failure to timely
solve homicides allows perpetrators to commit additional
murders, for which the city is, of course, not
liable. See, e.g., Varner v. District of Columbia, 891
A.2d 260 (D.C. 2006).

Data on police response times are no more encouraging
than data on crime closures. While there
has been some improvement in recent years, the response time to a “Priority 1 call in fiscal 2003 was 8
minutes, 25 seconds, up over a minute from the prior
year. Matthew Cella, Police Response to 911s Slowing;
D.C. Cops Take a Minute More, WASHINGTON TIMES,
May 10, 2004, at A1. No doubt the city’s police force
would be more effective if it were adequately staffed.
But “D.C. police routinely staff neighborhood patrols
below their own minimum standards, with some
areas having just one officer or none at all.” David A.
Fahrenthold, Craig Timberg and Clarence Williams,
D.C. Patrol Staffing Falls Short; Some Areas Get Just
One Officer, WASHINGTON POST, May 4, 2003, at A1.

If the city does not wish to “stand by while its
citizens die,” it has many opportunities to act without
infringing upon the Bill of Rights. “ntil issues like
onerous requirements for officers to appear in court,
outmoded technology, counterproductive work rules
and lax attitudes are fixed, residents won’t see dramatic
change.” Shuffling the Force, WASHINGTON
POST, Sept. 29, 2007, at A18.

In the meantime, people need not stand by and
die while waiting for Petitioners to provide a safe city
in which to live. The Second Amendment guarantees
to citizens something that Petitioners have expressly
and consistently disclaimed any legal obligation to
provide: an effective means of preserving their lives.
 
So far I've read only the Summary of Argument, the "abstract" if you will.

I try VERY hard to set aside my biases in this case, and to view the proceedings objectively.

The summary is skillfully worded and written. It covers all the bases, and points out the flaws and oddities in the petition in subtle, yet clearly recognizable ways. It is professional, precise, accurate, and cuts like a knife. Like a razor.

As much as I HATE this word, the one word that can really summarize my take on this response, and at this time is.....OWNED.

I am delighted. Delighted, indeed. Heller's legal team are more than remarkable.

I do believe it is time this issue is taken back.

We the People.
 
How will this brief differ from the actual document submitted when/if cert is granted?

What is the next step from here?

Nick
 
Heller has some AMAZING representation. This, my friends, may well turn out to be the turning point in firearms laws in this country.
 
This, my friends, may well turn out to be the turning point in firearms laws in this country.

Maybe. I like to think that a big part of it is all the little victories won mostly in state legislatures over the past 20 years. Most of those victories were won by average, everyday people like us. Not the NRA or any big time political organization. The NRA did a pretty decent job of leading the tactical fight at the national level, even if they were imperfect at it. That gave us the breathing space needed to stem the tide, and maybe, just maybe, start to reverse things in our favor.

Add in some of the unsung heroes (as another poster mentioned) who decided 20-30 years ago that 2A scholarship was a good idea. It takes a long time to make a difference in that arena.

But do not fool yourself. It took four years for an absurdly obvious case to get this far. The next case won't be as simple, or as incompetently defended as this one, nor will it be about absolute prohibition of all functional firearms as this one is. The real test will come when the court decides what are reasonable limits to the "bear" part of "keep and bear". I am guessing such cases won't get decided for at least a decade.

The one really good thing about fighting it out in DC is that they have some of the most draconian laws on firearms. It makes the case much easier to make.
 
How will this brief differ from the actual document submitted when/if cert is granted?

This is merely the appetizer. The actual brief will be much longer and much more detailed.

What is the next step from here?

We await the Districts response to the conditional petition for cert which was filed on behalf of the parties who were denied standing. Once that is submitted, we wait on pins and needles to see if SCOTUS grants cert... Districts brief due 45 days after that, Heller brief due 35 days thereafter... then oral argument then decision...
 
Can they top this?

This has got to be some of the best legal writing I've read in quite a while. Sorry to be non-high road about this, but the DC Petitioners most definitely got OWNED.

My question is, if this case actually goes in front of SCOTUS, would the Heller team really need to present anything beyond what they've already stated? Just seems like it would be hard to top this.
 
My question is, if this case actually goes in front of SCOTUS, would the Heller team really need to present anything beyond what they've already stated? Just seems like it would be hard to top this.

Yes they will. They will do an in depth attack upon the primary antigun theories:
1.) Pure collective rights;
2.) Sophisticated collective rights; and,
3.) The new civic rights theory proposed by Saul Cornell.

In addition, they will need to address the District's argument that the 2nd does not apply to DC, but I anticipate that this will be closely associated with arguments on the pure collective right theory, since DC's theory only makes sense if you first adopt the pure collective position.
 
They used one hell of a quote in this thing...

Tench Coxe said:
Their swords, and every other terrible implement
of the soldier, are the birth right of
an American. . . . [The] unlimited power of
the sword is not in the hands of either the
federal or state governments, but where I
trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands
of the people.
 
Heller Petition said:
The case is further suitable for review because the question it presents is quite narrow. Contrary to petitioner's tendentious formulation of the question presented in their petition, the question presented by this case is whether the Second Amendment secures an individual right to keep basic functional firearms, including ordinary handguns, within the home. In resolving that narrow, specific question, this Court need not decide the full extent of Second Amendment rights nor even determine the appropriate level of scrutiny for regulations that implicate the Second Amendment.

Many have predicted the Supreme Court ruling would be narrow if it was an individual rights ruling. It looks like the plaintiffs are outlining the scope of the question they would like to see addressed and keeping it fairly narrow as well. I wouldn't expect the Supreme Court to rule beyond what they asked for above - which means that standard of scrutiny and other issues may wait until a later case (though the standard in D.C. will still be strict scrutiny based on the appellate court ruling, albeit a strict scrutiny that allows for a lot fo regulation).
 
Many have predicted the Supreme Court ruling would be narrow if it was an individual rights ruling. It looks like the plaintiffs are outlining the scope of the question they would like to see addressed and keeping it fairly narrow as well. I wouldn't expect the Supreme Court to rule beyond what they asked for above - which means that standard of scrutiny and other issues may wait until a later case (though the standard in D.C. will still be strict scrutiny based on the appellate court ruling, albeit a strict scrutiny that allows for a lot fo regulation).

Read a bit further. There are 5 separate sections they ask the court to address. But I agree, I am not holding my breath.
 
I've read the whole thing. The five separate sections are their response to the petition for cert and not necessarily things they are asking the Court to address. For example, the last section dealing with D.C.'s social science says that whether these claims are true or not is irrelevant to whether the law is constitutional; but takes some swipes at them all the same.

Likewise, later in the brief, they even make the argument that this case might be a bad case to determine the level of scrutiny applied because of the stark nature of the D.C. ban. Since it completely and utterly ignores the Second Amendment, it needs to just be struck down and later regulations that are less obstructive will be a better case for determining the type of scrutiny to be applied (Hope they have some of those cases lined up!)

I think the decision will be limited to the points I bolded; but after reading the D.C. submission and this one, I really, really like our chances. I think legaleagle45's call of 6-3 may be spot on. I am amazed by all the authorities and scholarship they have mustered in support (i.e. OLC, Justice Department, the Constitutional law professors at Harvard, Yale and University of Texas, etc.).

Seeing the table of authorities really made me appreciate all the earlier (and still mostly unrecognized) work that many here would deem insignificant; but work that was still necessary to allow this case to happen.
 
Gaiudo said:
What is the next step from here?


I believe the next step is for the clerk of the court to have it "DISTRIBUTED for Conference" upon a specified date at which the supremes will vote on whether or not to grant certiorari. I think if it gets four votes cert is granted.
 
The brief does a great job of trying to get a precise ruling. Are the SCOTUS justices generally open to that kind of "direction"?

I love this:

The city's handgun ban is not rendered constitutional simply because the city claims (mistakenly) to refrain from violating the Constitution in other ways, e.g. by not banning rifles and shotguns. The court of appeal aptly describe the argument as "frivolous." Pet. App. at 53a. By Petitioner's logic, the city could ban the practice of religions it believes foment a disproportionate level of violence so long as it "allowed" an array of other religious practices that still satisfy spiritual needs."


A thousand people have said this and similar things about all manner of weapons, and its great to see the argument put in writing in front of the SCOTUS. I like that, while Heller is arguing for handguns in particular, they are showing that most bans are bogus:

The question whether handguns are arms whose possession by individuals is secured by the Second Amendment must be answered under the test laid out for this purpose in Miller, or under whatever new test the Court might fashion.
 
That was the best legal brief I've ever read. You could almost taste the sarcasm in the "right to stand by.." section, yet it remained totally professional throughout.

How long does it usually take SCOTUS to decide whether to grant cert? I can't wait to see the fireworks in the full briefs! I imagine there will be some blockbuster amici curiae too.
 
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