Help! I want to get a rifle before potential bans go into effect and am clueless

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rob, if a young guy that has little driving experience or money asked if he should get a camaro or mustang, I'd tell him to get experience driving something that's good on gas and will help you learn proper technique. That's not the advice the guy would want to hear, but it's the advice he should hear.

I don't think anyone would argue that a 12 gauge is the rusted Ford pickup of guns, for that matter. Either way, the analogies are bogus. I'm just appalled by the fact that a forum of well-read people who are experienced with gun handling would recommend a semi-auto high-cap for someone who is self-declared "clueless." In five pages of feedback not a single person even hinted to the fact that this guy should get himself well-acquainted with proper gun safety and handling before making the plunge. I'm not trying to stir the pot, but from where I'm at this is called poor advice on a good day.
 
I have a question :: rasis hand anxuslly:: just remembering from a us goverment class he dosen't go into office till jan. so whats the hurry buy a bolt gun used, a used remington 870 learn on them and move up to an evil rifle.

and b/c were using car analogys you don't drive a porsche for your first time you drive a beat up camry then move up as you can handle it

sorry for my spelling
zach
 
younganddumb, that's exactly what I'm trying to say. This whole scenario reminds me of something that happened a few years back.

An old buddy of mine had a snub nose he messed around with from time to time, saw my AR 10, and wanted to shoot it. Okay, I said, no problem, assuming the guy knew his ass from a hole in the ground.

So we go out to the range, and I load five rounds into the magazine. I tell him "It's got five rounds in it. If you don't want to shoot anymore, put the safety on, and call me over."

He shoots three rounds and turns around with chamber loaded and safety off, pointing the barrel at every single person that was at the range (accidentally), including myself. Imagine about 15 people hitting the deck all at once. Needless to say, I never took him out again.

Now, I'm not saying this guy is as careless as my admittedly dumb friend. But the fact remains. Get something where you have to manually load the chamber each time. Pump shotgun. Bolt rifle. Et Cetera.
 
i agree with you 100% power167 I am young only 16 and am working my way up I got a shotgun next is a bolt but, before jan. if oboma gets in, I might buy a m1a and leave it in a box till i'm ready for it.

But I will have to see how the bolt go's before I get to far ahead
 
Most SKS rifles only hold ten rounds, but for about $250, they are simple/very dependable and always use the same ammo as any AK-47 or Saiga x39. If a ton of money were available as a pure investment, it would be for a dozen AKs and spare mags, plus several SKS.

If I could justify the money for a shotgun, it would be a Saiga combat shotgun, without a doubt.
My brother and I happened to be at a range near Evansville when several gentlemen tested a fully automatic Saiga 12 after we walked over, for which they are creating a patent.
Even the civilian semi-auto Saiga 12s are combat shotguns. Impressive.
 
Calm down everybody, lol. Power, not questioning your logic (in fact, you may be right, a used bolt gun may be a good route for me at this point if I decide the threat of a ban is minimal), but why would the elements of gun safety change when changing from handguns to rifles? It seems to me the same four safety rules that apply to handguns would apply the same to rifles, and the only difference b/w the semi-auto and bold would be that one is self-loading. It would prob take slightly longer to familiarize myself with all the extra controls on a semi vs a bolt-gun, but I don't see why one would be inherently safer than the other?

And just out of curiosity, what would you recommend as a good starter bolt gun for me (new or used)?
 
Let me guess, he should start on a .22 and a revolver first too?

That's outdated thinking. There is NOTHING that makes a bolt action rifle a better choice for a first gun than a semi-auto. Nothing.

Saying that there is just betrays a zumbo-like attitude.
 
SA XD-40, STI Spartan 1911, S&W M&P, and HK USPc (thinking about trading this one towards my rifle purchase though)

Been shooting for going on 2 and a half years now, and I go to the range on average once every week or every other week. Sometimes do some practical shooting as well


And just out of curiosity, what would you recommend as a good starter bolt gun for me (new or used)?

Also, anywhere I can view some good literature on the mini-14? Is the mini-14 the same as the m-14?
 
The action of the Mini-14 is based upon the M-14 action, but it is not the same rifle, nor is it made by the same manufacturer. Info can be found here: http://www.ruger.com/Firearms/FAFamily?type=Rifle&subtype=Autoloading&famlst=20&variation=Mini-14%C2%AE%20Ranch%20Rifle

If you have yourself set on an assault gun, I'd get the Mini-30, which is chambered in the AK 7.62x39. This is because the larger 7.62 bullet travels at a much lower velocity. The short and long of it is that the 5.56 will burn out a barrel much faster when compared to 7.62, especially in the type of rapid fire situations that assault guns are known for (that's where the "fun" comes in, I suppose).

In my former posts, I didn't mean to come off as dogmatic. It's just that you had presented yourself as clueless with regards to assault guns, and I wanted to make it clear one needs a fair amount of experience before taking that type of plunge.

Regarding a bolt gun, I'd look for one in .308, 25-06, or 6.5 x 55mm Swedish (a personal favorite of mine) because all these rounds are inherently accurate, and have low recoil, relatively speaking. You could find a Ruger Mark 77 for cheap, which is probably your best bet for quality vs. cost.

If you want the most bang for your buck, look into a Remington 870 12 gauge. I really mean it when I say a shotgun is much more versatile and more fun when compared to an assault gun. There's only so much you can do with a rifle, regardless of how many bullets it holds. Seeing little holes in paper or bouncing around a can loses its fun very fast, trust me. Shooting for accuracy is one thing, and is quite enjoyable, but I get the impression you're in it more for the casual plinking. Nothing wrong with that, everyone loves it, but believe me when I say an assault gun will get old for those purposes. But, on the other hand, making something completely disappear in one shot with a 12 gauge never gets old. Plus, a lot of ranges these days have capacity limits (3 to 5 rounds in the gun at any one time), so that pretty much nixes your assault gun fun.

Check out the movie Unforgiven to see what I mean with shotgun vs. single projectile. There's one scene toward the beginning that spells it all out.
 
If you don't want a bolt action rifle, then don't get one. You're right on the money, if you can't follow the Four Rules w/ a semi auto, then you won't be able to follow them with so much as a single shot airgun, either.

Folks enjoy different kinds of shooting. Personally, shooting flying clay discs with a shotgun sounds about as fun taking 10 lashes in town square. Popping steel plates, cans, paper targets, and running carbine competitions tickles my happy bone.

YMMV.
 
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The Kia is a car that requires proper maintenance to stay reliable, and has a WEAK little engine. Thats the AR to a TEE my friend. When you buy your AR, your "paying $50K for a Kia" just because its painted black.
Better analogy to the AR is a Lotus Elise. Lightweight materials, high-tech construction, not much horsepower but very precise handling. And yes, they're spendy.

You'd be silly not to give the Mini-14 a serious look. It's based upon the M14/M1-A action, but is much lighter and more compact. In my opinion, and that of many professional soldiers/armorers, the M14 action is superior to that of the AR/M16. The M16 was always a finicky gun, and always will be....

Mini14. If your money matters, get it. It's the only top quality "assault" rifle you can get for well under a grand.
When I was 18 or 19, I wanted an AR, but decided to get an mini-14 Ranch Rifle instead; this was around 1989. I enjoyed it and shot it a lot, but was very dissatisfied with the accuracy (5.5" at 100 yards with match ammo off a rest and rear bags), magazine availability was terrible, and I decided I didn't like the early-20th-century styling. I eventually bought an AK (more accurate than the mini), sold the mini, and set the money aside for a Rock River AR.

The Mini-14 would be a neat rifle at $350-$400. It's not as appealing when it costs as much as a basic AR, IMO. It's hard to accessorize, your optics choices are limited, good magazines are hard to come by. If you like straight wooden stocks, don't mind using magazines that are both proprietary and delicate, and can put up with the deterioration in accuracy as the barrel gets hot and the overzealous case ejection (Ranch Rifle), it's a good rifle, though pricey. But if someone's first choice is an AR, I don't think they'll be happy with a mini, IMO. That was certainly true of me.

The AK, by contrast, is quite reliable, but also cheap. It will run while it's still in good shape, but a lot of these less expensive AKs use garbage soft metal. So that gun you paid $300 for will be worth bubkiss in 10 years with average shooting. The only AK-based gun I'd even consider is the one offered by CZ (who make excellent stuff). But then, that's pushing $1K.
That might be true of an AK you build in your garage using a receiver you don't properly heat-treat, or possibly some of the AK's that Hesse let out the door years ago. But it's not true of even a $350 Century Romanian AK, never mind a Saiga or nicer AK.

Of course, one has to wonder why a college student needs a "room clearing" gun. You mentioned, on one hand, that you only want to use it for targets, but every one of your comparisons puts your rifle of choice in a combat situation.
When I bought my first rifle when I was in college, I specifically wanted one that could serve in a home-defense role down the road. A mini-14 and an AR will both serve in that capacity.

I think you should really evaluate what you want and need. Rather than blow your money on a toy that you'll certainly be bored with in a few years, get yourself a decent bolt gun and a shotgun. Those two will take care of any situation you can think up, whether it be sporting or defensive. On the used market, you can spend less than $500 total and have TWO kick-ass guns.
Where can you find a new bolt-action with optics AND a magazine-fed shotgun for less than $500?

BTW, once nice thing about an AR is that if you get bored punching paper at 600 yards with your 20" upper and scope, you can swap a 16" midlength upper and a red dot on there and shoot IPSC/USPSA/IDPA with it. Or a 6.8mm upper and hunt deer with it. Or a .22LR upper and plink with it. Optics can go over the receiver, or over the barrel, or you can use the excellent iron sights (better than you'll find on most bolt-actions). Ergonomics are top-notch, and fit and finish is first rate. And it looks like something that belongs in the late 20th/early 21st century rather than the 19th/early 20th.

Another way of looking at it: Ask any serious shooter, "Sir, if you could only have one gun, what would it be?" I guarantee you the serious hunters/shooters will say either A.) bolt-gun, or B.) shotgun. The vast majority of those getting these assault rifles are enamored by their image as an "evil" gun, period. Sure, you can shoot some cans with it, and that's about it, unless you want to break the law.
No. I am a pretty serious shooter, and I'd pick the AR over any bolt gun or shotgun.

The AR is the choice of a lot of serious shooters of my generation. I dare say it is the #1 choice.

Anyone that says an AR or an AK or any assault rifle is a viable defense weapon for the average civilian is full of ****, period, end of sentence. If someone breaks into your one bedroom apartment, you might get him before he gets you (better hope he doesn't have a shotgun), but you'll probably also get Suzy next door in the process.
If you have access to a good library, check out Roberts G.K., "Law Enforcement General Purpose Shoulder Fired Weapons: the Wounding Effects of 5.56mm/.223 Carbines Compared with 12 ga. Shotguns and Pistol Caliber Weapons Using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant, Police Marksman, Jul/Aug 1998, pp. 38-45.

Civilian lightweight JHP's penetrate less in building materials AND gelatin than handgun-caliber JHP's do. That's a big reason why so many police departments have switched from MP5's to M4's/AR-15's.

From experience, I can tell you an assault rifle is more fun on TV and in pictures than it is in real life. A bolt gun, with open sites or a scope, is much more enjoyable. Hell, a .22 is more fun. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to bust balls or anything. I'm just saying, if you're on a budget, an assault rifle is the last thing that should be on your list, ban or no ban. You said yourself you weren't one of those paramilitary freaks with the MREs and radiation tablets in your basement, so what legitimate reason do you have for owning one?
What the HECK? "What legitimate reason do you have for owning one"? :scrutiny:

The AR-15 is THE most popular centerfire target rifle in the nation, and THE most popular defensive carbine in the nation. The AR-15 DOMINATES centerfire target competition not only at 600 yards, but also at 15 yards in IPSC/IDPA style shooting.

An AR-15 kicks like a .22 but has the trajectory of a .270 and the accuracy of a bolt gun. What's not to like?

The AR is popular on its merits, not because its owners want to be Rambo.

If you have yourself set on an assault gun, I'd get the Mini-30, which is chambered in the AK 7.62x39. This is because the larger 7.62 bullet travels at a much lower velocity. The short and long of it is that the 5.56 will burn out a barrel much faster when compared to 7.62, especially in the type of rapid fire situations that assault guns are known for (that's where the "fun" comes in, I suppose).
Only if all you know about AR-15 and civilian AK owners comes from watching CNN and reading the New York Times.

Last time I took my AK to the range, I fired 50 rounds in 50 minutes. I was the only person there who spent any time at 200 yards.

If you want the most bang for your buck, look into a Remington 870 12 gauge. I really mean it when I say a shotgun is much more versatile and more fun when compared to an assault gun.
In my opinion, a shotgun is neither more versatile nor more fun.

Plus, a lot of ranges these days have capacity limits (3 to 5 rounds in the gun at any one time), so that pretty much nixes your assault gun fun.
Only a few, and none I've ever been to. Primarily ranges run by wood-and-blued-steel types who think us Gen-X and Gen-Y types with our newfangled modern-looking rifles with funny-looking scopes are only there to burn out our barrels and make noise, I suspect. :rolleyes:
 
I'm already planning on getting a shotgun, no need to persuade me there. An yes, shooting skeet (or trap, I always get them mixed up) is lots of fun (for me). But I'm not worried about getting the right to buy a shotgun or boltgun removed from me anytime soon. Seme-auto rifles otoh, I could see losing (or at least getting so expensive they were no longer a viable option).
 
ben, I'm just trying to give this guy some straight advice. I'm not trying to get into a forum "nitpick every two words" contest. By the way Jordan had set up this thread, it seemed as though he had next to no experience with guns in general. He elaborated, and thus I gave him advice based upon my experience. If you think the AR is the best thing since sliced bread, I'm glad for you. I personally do not, but I'm not going to go through your post and draw out every fallacy.

Good luck Jordan. Pick a good one.
 
Thx for all the help everyone (though I'm not sure whether I'm closer to a decision or more confused at this point, lol)
 
I owned a mini-14 for awhile and can testify on the barrel heat up issue. Mine was a synthetic stock stainless steel version and reliable as hell. First 5 round were the most accurate getting 2" groups with factory ammo.
 
Jordan85,

Two choices either get a AK based rifle or if budget permitting get an AR15. I've owned both types and both are well stupid fun. Seriously. Be sure to get plenty of quality mags and you're good to go.

If you have some money, I'd recommend the AR15 as you have so much more options you can get into versus AK type firearm.

Both rifles were designed for fast training for mostly teenagers going into combat, many of whom probably never shot a firearm before.
 
ben, I'm just trying to give this guy some straight advice. I'm not trying to get into a forum "nitpick every two words" contest. By the way Jordan had set up this thread, it seemed as though he had next to no experience with guns in general. He elaborated, and thus I gave him advice based upon my experience. If you think the AR is the best thing since sliced bread, I'm glad for you. I personally do not, but I'm not going to go through your post and draw out every fallacy.
An AR-15 functions no differently than the handguns he's indicated that he's had experience with. It's not an automatic weapon, it's a civilian autoloader, just like a mini-14, 10/22, or Remington 7400.
 
This is my first post here, but I hope it's a helpful one. It seems that Jordan is worried about a possible ban more than anything else. At the present time he has roughly $700 to spend. AK or AR?

Solution: Buy the AK..






..and also buy a stripped AR lower. That way you have your rifle to shoot and the lower to build up an AR in the future whenever you're ready. You should be able to do this for around the $700 mark. ;)

This also absolves the issue of owning the rifle before the ban as the lower of the AR that is considered the firearm part of the rifle.


I also want to thank Jordan85 for starting this thread and the other posters who have contributed to this thread. I have been able to use a lot of the information to further my education about ARs and AKs. (I am new to the firearm scene, goaded by my cigar buddies from clubstogie.com)

I currently have a WASR-10 (single stack) waiting to be picked up. Now I am going to pick up 2 AR lowers for the future and consider purchasing a double stack AK. (and a Marlin 60 for plinkin' :D)

Thanks,

Tam
 
rob_s, the reason so many of us holler about a bolt-action .22 rifle as a first rifle is not because it's any sort of "better gun". It's about the self-discipline in learning how to be a good shooter. An inexpensive way to develop eye/trigger-finger coordination with sight picture. The self-discipline to take aimed shots, rather than the fun and excitement of "spray and pray".

It doesn't take all that much experience to get up to "adequate, sorta" on the learning curve. But when you figure that it takes a few thousand rounds for a guy to get really, really good at this old shooting game, "inexpensive" is rather a key word.
 
That's antiquated BS IMHO. If someone has to be forced to learn how to shoot by using sub-optimal equipment then that is a training issue, not a gear issue.

We're teaching the 11 year old how to shoot with a 10/22 and he's progressing just fine. I almost fell victim to the old "everyone has to start on a bolt-action .22" nonsense, but then I thankfully remembered that the boy rides to school on a fullsize bus and can learn just fine.
 
everyone has to start on a bolt-action .22" nonsense

well, i did, and boy am i glad. when i got my first ar, i almost shot all my ammo shooting at nothing. that was with some degree of control, not a completly untrained shooter.

i am not saying that jordin should get a .22, i still think a ar would be best.
:)
 
I've been a shooter for almost 30 years. I started at age 6 on a bb gun, went to a pump .22 to a shot gun to a centerfire rifle.

I now own an AR-15 with a 5.56 upper and a .22 lr upper. If I had to, I'd sell all my other guns and keep the AR-15. I could hunt deer with 6.8, I have a blast plinking with the .22 for cheap and the 5.56 is great for varmits and any defense needs I hopefully never have. The only thing I couldn't do with it is hunt geese so the 870 might have to stay.

Learn safety first, but in the end it's all about what you want to do with it and what you want out of it. What do you love to do with a rifle and what do you need it to do for you? That's the million dollar question.
 
rob_s
That's antiquated BS IMHO. If someone has to be forced to learn how to shoot by using sub-optimal equipment then that is a training issue, not a gear issue.

We're teaching the 11 year old how to shoot with a 10/22 and he's progressing just fine.
I almost fell victim to the old "everyone has to start on a bolt-action .22" nonsense,
but then I thankfully remembered that the boy rides to school on a fullsize bus and can learn just fine.

:D I remember shooting a .22 once or twice when I was a kid, but the very first rifle I was taught to shoot was a Garand - no short bus or .22 here.
 
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