Help me choose a bolt-action rifle

[oss117]

I'm kicking around the idea of picking up a new rifle sometime this winter. I am not a rifle expert by any means, so I'm appealing to the wisdom of the High Road and hoping some of you have experience with the rifles I'm considering. I'm open to other suggestions too.

There are 3 things would like to be able to accomplish with this new rifle:

1) Learn some practical marksmanship: Think Appleseed or the type of shooting associated with Jeff Cooper and his scout rifles. Obviously going to involve the use of a sling. I'm not looking for a bench rest rifle, but something to learn on that isn't going to hold me back. I would like to become a competent shot and am willing to seek out the coaching and practice to get there.
2) This one might sound strange, but my local shooting club runs an occasional "carbine night" event. They're relaxed informal shoots with IDPA style courses set up for long guns and longer ranges. Most people will run them with AR's. I like to be different. I see the videos of folks doing similar run-and-gun courses with old military surplus rifles or Clint Smith's "old rifle class" and want to try it. Bottom line, I want to have some fun moving and shooting with this rifle, not just poking holes in paper targets off a rest.
3) Appropriate caliber for hog hunting. Not sure I ever will, but I'd like to have a rifle that's good-to-go if the opportunity presents itself.

I'm considering three rifles but have little to no experience with any of them:

Mossberg MVP Scout in .308 - There's a lot to like here. Size, weight, ghost ring sights, picatinny rail, threaded barrel, detachable M14 magazines. I even like the small rails on the sides of the stock. The price isn't out of reach, but it's really pushing the upper end of what I'm willing spend. I'm concerned that the bolt design and action are up to the strength and smoothness of the other rifles I'm considering.

Milsurp Mauser - I like the historical aspect and the action's reputation for strength and durability. From the videos I've seen, they do well when run hard. The stripper clips look like fun. Prices are coming up a bit, but some nice Yugo models are available. I would prefer one chambered for .308, but it's not a deal breaker. The downsides I see are weight, sights, and having to add a padded butt pad. I owned a Turkish Mauser several years ago; did not like it. I don't think it was a very good example of the breed though.

CZ 527 carbine in 7.62 x 39 - I like the size, weight, and supposedly Mauser type action. Never seen one in person though. Supposedly they're designed to work best with the cheap steel cased 7.62 x 39 ammo.

Thoughts?

 

[Ks5shooter]

TC Venture weathershield in 7mm-08 its my go to bolt gun for deer,hogs etc. 5r rifling,target crown ,freefloated barrel and adjustable factory trigger down to 3.5 lbs. Comes in many calibers,I have it in 25-06,.223,7mm-08.

 

[bikemutt]

CZ 527 in 7.62x39 may be designed to work best with cheap steel cased bloc ammo but mine shoots best with Hornady steel cased SST 123 grain ammo, which isn't exactly cheap.

I tried an MVP in 223 and never warmed up to it. It ran reliably but accuracy was unremarkable.

Consider a Howa mini-action in 7.62x39, or 6.5 Grendel (if you can find one). My Grendel turned out to be a tack driver, $650 plus tax.

 

[Coyote3855]

I recently acquired a Yugo SKS that I like a great deal. Around $400 - $450. Not .308 though, but would work for hogs, the carbine competitions, and general target work/plinking. Cheap ammo, runs on stripper clips. Doesn't need a recoil pad in 7.62x39. Downside, it comes loaded with cosmoline and is heavy, around 9 pounds. You probably won't ever use the bayonet.

 

[dranrab]

I have read very good things about that CZ. Having access to cheap ammo is certainly a good thing.

 

[oss117]

CZ 527 in 7.62x39 may be designed to work best with cheap steel cased bloc ammo but mine shoots best with Hornady steel cased SST 123 grain ammo, which isn't exactly cheap.

I tried an MVP in 223 and never warmed up to it. It ran reliably but accuracy was unremarkable.

Consider a Howa mini-action in 7.62x39, or 6.5 Grendel (if you can find one). My Grendel turned out to be a tack driver, $650 plus tax.

Hmmm. I wasn't aware of that Howa. Looks interesting. How do the actions and triggers compare between your Howa and CZ?

 

[ford8nr]

I have a Howa mini action in .223
Trigger is 2 stage and fantastic !
Bolt throw is short and smooth, not a big fan of their placement of the mag release on the front of the mag well. Shoots sub MOA 5 shot 100yd groups with 68gr handloads. Paid $249 at Cabelas plus had a $20 off coupon.

 

[ford8nr]

Just looked and Cabelas is sold out. When I bought mine they were on clearance, got the heads up from another THR thread.
Buds has the same gun for $338

Model
HMA60203+
Condition Factory New
Bud's Item # 719004200
UPC 682146370584

 

[maxxhavoc]

If you are thinking Appleseed, skip the bolt action until you hit Rifleman. Seriously, many folks have issues firing a .22 Semiauto under the time limit on the kneeling/seated stage. Recoil makes it much harder, bolt action more than that.

The fundamentals are the same whether it is a 22lr or a bolt action. However, it is much easier to practice cadence without heavy recoil and working a bolt. Also, an aperture sight is the Rifleman's best friend.

If you are set on using a hard-hitting bolt gun for fast action, skip the Mauser and look at a SMLE. Those things are capable of some VERY quick fire.

 

[mshootnit]

Savage scout.

http://www.gunbroker.com/item/602719695

 

[1stmarine]

+1 on the Savage 308 scout... or hog hunter (read below)

IMO, a 223 rifle is great but a 1:9 is a mistake since one will not be able to enjoy some of the best loads the 223 has to offer.
I think the light for caliber slow moving bullets like the 7.62x39 will have limited range in hunting applications but at least it has the case capacity
to be reloaded and pumped vs. a whisper/blackout.
I think a light 308 will fulfill all the roles you want and will have enough momentum to hunt with authority as well as knocking down heavy steel.
You also have the option of use reduced loads with light bullets from 110-130gr that should help get comfortable with the rifle.
A 18" 6.8spc II would be a perfect cartrige that will be easier to shoot and will perform very well in hogs, deer and tactical targets.
A basic savage will be a perfect donor to rebarrel with their barrel nut system.
Otherwise the 308 Savage scout is a great value out of the box.
You also have the 308 hog hunter for around $430 or that it becomes the scout only without the accustock nor the large magazine but you have
also retrofits for that.
I like the savage 10 and Remington 700 actions because a short action is not a lot larger than a mini action yet you have unparalleled
aftermarket support for anything you could imagine. Time tested and battle tested actions.

 

[ford8nr]

OP, what is your experience up to now and what other rifles do you own.
Answering those could lead to specific answers based on what to accomplish.
If you want to learn real marksmenship get an adult sized .22 rifle
Learn precision up close out to 100yds and how to read the wind over 100yds.
I shoot several steel plate matches out to 240yds with a .22
Wind becomes a REAL factor and teaches you to be a better centerfire shooter.

 

[LoonWulf]

Nother nod to the savage 10s. Ive never seen a scout in person, but have shot the hog hunter and a number of other 10/11s, all have been accurate, affordable, and comfortable. A savage axis in 308 might not be a bad option as well, If you really want a different stock type you could spend the saved money there.

I also like the Howa mini actions, and the CZs. Having handled both side by side (not the howa mini, but if its just a smaller variant of the standard short than the experience should carry over), I actually would prefer the Howa, BUT thats personal preference. Id also prefer the gerndel to the x39, also personal preference.

 

[Varminterror]

I'd recommend you take a long, hard look at the .243win.

Cropping out a lot of your quote for brevity:

There are 3 things would like to be able to accomplish with this new rifle:

1) Learn some practical marksmanship:

I've instructed & coached new rifle shooters for almost 2 decades, and whenever this is on the table, a low recoiling, low cost, high availability cartridge is in order. The 223rem is hard to ignore in this application - it's incredibly cheap, near-zero recoil, and frankly, its relatively poor ballistic coefficients make it GREAT for learning long range shooting techniques, as accurate range estimation and wind reading become even more critical. Making 600yrd shots on 4MOA steel at 600yrds with a 223rem rifle in moderate wind is often more difficult than making 4MOA hits on steel at 1,000yrds with a 308win or 7rem mag.

To be honest, I'd really limit yourself on recoil level (and ammo expense) in this decision. A 243win, 260rem, or 7-08 would be about as high as I'd climb. A bolt action 6.5 Grendel would be a fine choice. The 308win is a natural contender for its availability of ammo, but the recoil level is often an issue for run & gun matches. Don't neglect the fact 3 Gun matches have a special class for us masochists called "heavy metal" in which a 308win is required - this is in recognition of the 308's its inherent disadvantage to lighter cartridges in the run & gun game. The US military - and foreign/soviet militaries as well - went away from the 30cal for the same reason, the extra recoil is difficult to manage at high cycle rates - throw a manual manipulation of the bolt into the mix and your response to recoil time becomes even more important.

If you don't reload, your cartridge choices are incredibly limited - you should be in the 223rem vs. 243win ballpark, 7-08, 6.5x55 swede, 260rem, etc. As much flack as I expect to take for it, the x39 doesn't have the trajectory, in my opinion, to earn a spot on this list, and 308win has too much recoil.

If you DO reload, there are a LOT of options out there. 6SLR, 6XC, 6 Dasher, 6 & 6.5x47L, 6 & 6.5 Creedmoor, 243 AI, 6BR... the list goes on... Plus, if you do reload, you'll have the ability to download the 308win to keep your recoil down and run & gun speed up.

2) [...] my local shooting club runs an occasional "carbine night" event. They're relaxed informal shoots with IDPA style courses set up for long guns and longer ranges.[...] run-and-gun courses [...] Bottom line, I want to have some fun moving and shooting with this rifle, not just poking holes in paper targets off a rest.

For this kind of run and gun shooting, a lighter weight rifle in a shorter barrel is great. Enough barrel weight to keep it muzzle heavy for stability, but not so light you can't move and shoot. A short action, or better still, a mini-action is a slight advantage for cycling speed, but that's a long ways down the road.

This type of game isn't uncommon, pretty typical for 3 Gun, practical rifle, and PRS type clubs. In general, 223/5.56's will dominate until the ranges get over 300-400yrds, then for matches going out past 500, you'll see 6 and 6.5mm short action cartridges rule the roost. The .243win is one of the best performers for factory cartridges which can be had at low cost and with nearly infinite availability.

3) Appropriate caliber for hog hunting.

I've killed the vast majority of my hogs with a 223rem - despite popular internet rumor, it doesn't take a hugely powerful cartridge to kill a hog. Unless I'm planning my hog hunts under a feeder at 600yrds and further, I don't shoot anything as big as a 308win for hogs. A 6.8spc or 6.5 Grendel is as big as I go out to 400yrds, and again, I almost always do my hogging with a 223rem. A .243win will offer longer range, and plenty of stomping power.

Mossberg MVP Scout in .308 - There's a lot to like here. Size, weight, ghost ring sights, picatinny rail, threaded barrel, detachable M14 magazines. I even like the small rails on the sides of the stock. The price isn't out of reach, but it's really pushing the upper end of what I'm willing spend. I'm concerned that the bolt design and action are up to the strength and smoothness of the other rifles I'm considering.

First, don't discount the Mossberg's for irrational belief about strength. They'll be more than strong enough to be ran hard for what you're considering. The smoothness is another issue, but can generally be improved.

I never would have given the Mossberg rifles a chance, but had a chance opportunity at a range right when they came out to run one, and it did impress me. The owner saddled up at the lane beside my wife and I, and I took notice as he installed his newly purchased scope onto his newly purchased rifle ON THE LINE - he had my attention. After attempting to boresight it visually, then throwing shot after shot at the 50yrd target, creating a shotgun pattern, and adjusting his scope every shot - and after going back to the sales desk for his 3rd box of ammo, I offered to help. 5 shots later, I had him zeroed, and had printed a 3 shot group at 50yrds I could cover with the tip of my finger. Moving out to 100yrds, I printed a 5 shot group which fit under a quarter. With the Savage style trigger, it's able to have a relatively good quality trigger out of the box (relative for factory, budget rifles). Not sure what stock is on the Scout, but that can always be changed. I've handled a few more since then, done load development for a few, and as a budget friendly option, it's not a bad choice.

The 308win is probably a little heavy for hogs, and a little heavy for your run & gun carbine matches. It's serviceable, but you'd likely do better in your matches with a lighter cartridge, and you can kill hogs with a lighter rifle and a lot less recoil. You'll be faster with the 243win.

Milsurp Mauser - I like the historical aspect and the action's reputation for strength and durability. From the videos I've seen, they do well when run hard. The stripper clips look like fun. Prices are coming up a bit, but some nice Yugo models are available. I would prefer one chambered for .308, but it's not a deal breaker. The downsides I see are weight, sights, and having to add a padded butt pad.

Pass... Too heavy and too long without sporterization, and even then, still much heavier than a more modern bolt action design, especially a short action. Guys do it all the time, I even fell for it myself before I learned better. 100% hard pass on the milsurp mausers for a run and gun rifle. The yugo's are nice for what they are, but they're not nice by any reasonable standard. Mauser actions have their place, a run and gun carbine isn't one of them in my book. There's a reason militaries have gone away from them.

For your carbine matches, the long mauser action will slow you down, let alone the weight and length.

CZ 527 carbine in 7.62 x 39 - I like the size, weight, and supposedly Mauser type action. Never seen one in person though. Supposedly they're designed to work best with the cheap steel cased 7.62 x 39 ammo.

The 527 is kinda a mini-mauser action, bringing you into the size and weight range it should be. I've never seen a CZ which didn't shoot incredibly well, of course - that will depend on what you feed it. I shot thousands upon thousands of "cheap steel cased 7.62x39 ammo" before I knew better, but for the price, I'd rather have higher quality ammo. I'm not a huge x39 fan any more, although I still shoot it a bit in my Mini 30 and my SKS's, and in a bolt gun, there are other cartridges I'd prefer, but if you're dead set on one of these 3, I'd lean towards this one.

If you're open to other rifles, I'd be looking for a .243win.

 

[ranger56528]

I gotta say Savage...

 

[oss117]

Thanks for all the replies, guys. There's a lot to think about and consider. I'd pretty much given up on a 223, but will re-think it. I don't know much about 243 other than that is supposed to be very high velocity (and may have shorter barrel life?). I'm going to have to head to the gun shop and check out more of my options. I wasn't dead set on the three rifles I mentioned.

 

[greyghost01]

Savage 10FCP-SR change bottom metal to accurate mag and get 1 magazine for 205.00
243 is a great round have that in Mod 11, 6.5 creedmoore is supposed to be a great round I don't have one yet, I have 3- 308s so guess I like that one, The new BA Stealth is a shooter have one of them on the way in 308

 

[Varminterror]

I don't know much about 243 other than that is supposed to be very high velocity (and may have shorter barrel life?).

The lack of barrel life for the .243win is pretty over-rated for hunters. It's not the barrel burner that some other rounds can be, the 220 swift, 7RM, and 25-06 (if memory serves) are all more "over-bored" than the 243win. The 6.5 Creedmoor, 7-08, 260, etc somewhat improve that issue, but barrel life is pretty good for the 243win, somewhere in the 1,200-1,500 shot ballpark, in general, before groups start opening. Once things open up, you can either tolerate a little loss of precision, maybe go 2-3 times as many shots before it totally falls off of the map, or have it set back at that point and get half to 2/3 as many shots back on it... Or just rebarrel it. I've tended to tell people I've coached to expect to burn out at least one barrel to develop their proficiency at long ranges, and then if you're competing, expect to burn out a barrel or more every season. Barrels are consumable items - figure 10-25cents per shot as barrel expense, depending upon the cartridge they choose, and their degree of precision tolerance (.223/5.56's used in NRA-HP tend to go 3000-5000rnds, 6.5-284's we used to use in 600/1000BR go 1000-1500rnds).

But - what the .243win WILL do - is drive a 105grn Berger with a BC of .536 over 3000fps, keeping itself supersonic past 1500yrds, and do it all with 30-40grn powder, and brass available from Lapua for under $1 per piece, which will last you over a dozen firings.

Don't get me wrong, the .243win isn't my first choice for a reloader looking to do a lot of long range precision shooting, since it's a little difficult to get the long VLD's into mag length with the 243 case, and it's easy to pick up a lot of range with the improved aerodynamics of 6.5mm or 7mm bullets with less wind drift, but rather I just wanted to try to clear up some of the irrational rumor-driven fears people have for the .243win. I've been a huge fan of the 243win AI for many years, one of my favorite cartridges. It sounds like the 243win might be a very good option for you.

 

[ZGunner]

Savage 10FCP-SR change bottom metal to accurate mag and get 1 magazine for 205.00
243 is a great round have that in Mod 11, 6.5 creedmoore is supposed to be a great round I don't have one yet, I have 3- 308s so guess I like that one, The new BA Stealth is a shooter have one of them on the way in 308

+1, but...

I personally wouldnt mess with the BA Stealth. I would upgrade bottom metal on a regular Savage Model 10 and spend the difference on better glass. I just don't see the chassis system being that much better.

I like my 6.5 Creedmoor but brass other than Hornady or Winchester is hard to come by. Lapua isn't making it yet. I've just been using once shot factory stuff.

For anybody who doubts the ability of .243, there is a shooter in my neck of the woods who has done pretty well with it and I'm sure would suggest it. His name is John Whidden.

 

[dc.fireman]

Tikka T3, CZ, or the Savage 10/12 series rifles are all fine candidates, and come in a variety of options/calibers.

 

[Sunray]

Jeff Cooper's scout rifle was one of his more stupid ideas. He envisioned a bolt action rifle for issue to PBI "scouts" at a time when nobody but the occasional sniper used a bolt action. And the world was busy discontinuing the use of 7.62NATO for PBI rifles. Then he decided the relatively fragile(you kind of have to see how the average troopie treats his kit.) scope should go in the wrong place too. He had some good ideas about the use of cement bricks in combat though. It was a tongue in cheek article in Soldier of Fortune magazine a long time ago.
Anyway, you need to decide on a budget both for the rifle and the ammo/reloading kit(shooting factory ammo gets expensive fast) before you do anything else.
1) Think Appleseed. Also think NRA classes.
2) You'd be at a very decided disadvantage with a bolt action for that. An occasional "carbine night" event screams M1 Carbine to me. I'd go with one of the new manufactured Carbines(bit under a grand for the rifle alone. You'll need mags and pouches. They're also easier to find than a Plainfield in decent condition. Or a real milsurp Carbine.) and reload for it. Ok and AR or SKS(not accurate enough and the sights are poor) would do, but it ain't the same thing.
3) That's mostly about the size of the hog wherever you are. A Carbine would do(a 110 grain HP makes big holes, but you'd have to be able to accurately place 'em.) You really need more than one rifle for the kind of shooting you want to do.
"...lack of barrel life for the .243 Win..." 'Overrated' is being polite. snicker.

 

[boom boom]

As much as I love bolt actions and milsurps in general, I agree with those above that a semi-automatic magazine fed rifle in .223, 6.5 Grendel, or 6.8 Rem, or even 7.62x39 makes a lot of sense for what you are trying to do.
You can fire a bolt action pretty fast and accurate even in a battle rifle caliber. Some are better and smoother than others for this (Lee-Enfields and Springfields in particular, the French MAS 36 is another slick bolt gun). That being said, recoil recovery will always be slower and you have to practice with stripper clips and dummy rounds until it gets to be second nature. The advantage that battle rifles have chiefly rests in penetration and distance over the lighter assault calibers. The difference in semi-auto rifles largely rests with your personal preferences and your tolerance for spending money.

Try John Farnam's book on Defensive Rifles as he talks about the different calibers and rifles in a chapter and their advantages and shortcomings. Clint Smith is another old-school guy worth listening to.

 

[P89DCSS]

I'd buy an AR with varmint/target upper, good to 300~500 yards. Wish I did a few years ago instead of going with a Remington 700. Cycling the bolt is a distraction compared to running a semi-auto.

 

[Sav .250]

Opinions at times are valuable. More biased than not. Even with your lack of knowledge about the subject "opinions' call be confusing.
Plus putting your self in corner by thinking about 3 rifles rather than looking at the full spectrum available doesn`t serve you well.

Get your opinions but educate yourself by reading /learning about what does what. Someone giving you the answers serves no purpose in the long run. Broaden you knowledge . Do the home work.

No disrespect to all giving their opinions.

 

[Bart B.]

The most reliable, smoothest operating, fast lock time, reliable safety, stiff action with easiest maintenance is probably the Winchester 70 classic controlled feed version. They have a better track record than any other internal box magazine bolt action rifle in matches where 10 shots rapid fire are needed; you have to reload with stripper clipped ammo. They're near 3 times stiffer than the Rem. 700 action and their flat bedding surfaces hold better than round actions. Match rifles built with them are as accurate as any of the huge single shot actions so popular in long range benchrest events. But most folks are ignorant of these facts.

Military snipers well familiar with the Winchester action wanted it to stay around when something new was proposed in the 1960's. But Winchester was in financial straits at the time so the government big wigs on the military and political side of things decided to go with Remington; in spite of all their action's frailties. Yes, the Reming was popular in bench rest matches but it shot pip squeak 22 and 24 caliber cartridges and it was never stressed in operation and maintenance during combat environments. Most of its short comings were quite visible in rifle matches when they failed to feed, broke extractors or twisted out of good bedding contact.