Help me design a class for backup guns

[Oleg Volk]

I'd like to address several concerns common to backup pistols:

- accessibility or lack thereof (belly band, pocket, Thunderwear)
- drawing speed or lack thereof
- drawing while moving (from pocket, ankle)
- safety while drawing
- accuracy enough to compensate for low power
- accessing spare ammo and reloading
- malfunction drills

Many people I know carry BUGs as primary weapons and few of them show any competency with those arms. I'd like to devise training that would turn that warm feeling of security into actual security.

 

[BullfrogKen]

Andy Stanford's Snubby Summit, a conference discussing the use of the short barreled revolver might be a helpful resource to start with.

Perhaps he could put you in touch with those who spoke and you could get their outlines. I know that Tom Givens' presentation touched on the little semi-automatics, especially the Kel-Tec, serving as the "new snubby for the 21st century".

 

[El Tejon]

Lots of one handed shooting and in awkward positions, especially the ground (may trip and lose primary weapon or on deck for 100 reasons), drawing with non-dominant hand, some drill to simullate loss of blood, maybe run people and make them do jumping jacks and then draw and shoot bug.

 

[Jeff White]

Make them practice their presentation dry several times. Videotape is good because you can show them how they are covering bystanders with their muzzle and fumbling for their weapon as they retrieve it from pockets or other deep concealment.

A good course on shooting from retention positions. Again, start this with a lot of dryfire. You don't want anyone shooting their offhand or burning their clothes with muzzle flash.

Talk about those times when your BUG may become your primary because it's easier to access then your primary i.e. seated in a car with BUG on ankle and primary on hip.

If they carry their BUG on the weak hand side for weak handed presentation, make sure they shoot it weak handed.

I've seen too many BUG qualifications that ended up as marksmanship training because it was considered too unsafe to actually draw from the place you carried the BUG.

Jeff

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I'd like to address several concerns common to backup pistols:

- accessibility or lack thereof (belly band, pocket, Thunderwear)
- drawing speed or lack thereof
- drawing while moving (from pocket, ankle)
- safety while drawing
- accuracy enough to compensate for low power
- accessing spare ammo and reloading
- malfunction drills

Very simple -- convert your objective to tasks, using an actioin verb, like this:

The student will access his weapon from whereever he carries it (belly band, pocket, Thunderwear)

You might do this in a real-world scenario -- "Vern Humphrey was on his hands and knees, attaching a "flat-fix" areosol can to the tire valve when he was approached by a mugger. Assume that position and draw your weapon."​

The student will draw and present his weapon withing 2 seconds.

The student will draw and present his weapon while moving.

The student will be penalized for safety infractions while drawing

The student will achieve a score of XX on the ZZ target.

The student will perform a reload within 2 seconds.

The student will perform the following malfunction drills:
-failure to fire
-failure to go into battery
-locked cylinder.

That's your whole lesson plan (except for listing what you need to conduct the class and a short introduction.)

 

[Johannes_Paulsen]

Oleg,

Just curious -- do you have a defintion of "backup gun"? Like any gun that is less than x inches in length? Caliber? Method of carry? I only ask because you mentioned that some of your friends carried "backup guns" as their primary carry weapon....in which case, in my mind, it isn't actually a backup gun.

Would a Kahr MK40 qualify as a "backup gun", for example?

 

[Oleg Volk]

MK40 (and my PM9) seem to be backups to me...guns carried primarily for their small size rather than for their effect. In other words, absent a requirement for concealment, most users would carry a K40 or a P9 or something larger.

Maybe "hideout" gun is a better term.

The reason I want this course is the number of friends who carry anything from a PM9 down to 22LR 2-shot Hi Standard derringer or hard-kicking titanium 38s...and who barely practice fighting with them. Too many assume they'll be touching the target when firing those. "These are for contact distances", they say. And the perp would be doing what while you are making that contact?

 

[Vern Humphrey]

As I have said many times, most disasters happen because people plan to have disasters.

I think you ought to run your course, and let your friends see the consequences of their choices.

 

[BullfrogKen]

I agree with Vern. Oleg, I'm not sure why you feel compelled to make your friends self-evaluate their choices of a carry gun through a class. If they have come to you asking for a class because they recognize the need, that's another story. But I wager it'll be about as effective as trying to persuade a man who feels he has no need of training to take a weekend class.


Trying to convince your friends their choices are less than optimum is rather fruitless. Let your friends deal with the choices they make. The only way they'll reconsider it is the day they really need that gun, and realize all they have to produce is that tiny thing.

 

[shotgunkevin]

I know nothing of designing a class, but it seems to me that a gunfight is a gunfight, regardless of the tools one may bring to it. Shouldn't the standard for those carrying a BUG be the same as the standard for those with a service weapon? Winning the fight is the only acceptable goal, how one goes about it is trivial. BUG, carbine, car bumper, Nikes - all are mere tools to get one through the night.

 

[GEM]

Michael Beautencourt (sp?) runs a two day snubby class. He has been written up in some gun rag. Also, Paladin press has some snubby books.

 

[KINGMAX]

For a backup, KISS = Keep it simple = it's up close work = keep it small and short, hammerless if possiable, how about a 357 - 5 shot revolver, use PLUS P's

 

[<SLV>]

One thing is apparent... you shold cover the available types of BUGs and the pros/cons of each. Many students might be trading in after they try their gun in your course.

 

[Johannes_Paulsen]

I carry a "hold-out gun" as Oleg defined it as my only piece (MK9)...I think the only thing that would need to be stressed in such a class that would NOT necessarily be covered in any 'standard' class would be drawing/presentation of weapon/method of carry. In the only classes I've been exposed to so far (I've only taken one,) the class requires you to have your weapon in a strong-side OWB holster, with a weak-side OWB magazine carrier. All draws/presentation are done from an exposed OWB holster. I've found that when I carry, I've only used an OWB holster occasionally, and pocket carry (in either front pants or jacket pocket) is more the norm. I'd say that this class, in addition to the 'usual' fundamentals should stress practice of drawing from the carry location.

Assisting the students in finding the best way for THEM to carry might also be a side benefit.

 

[1911 guy]

Backup gun VS. Little gun.

If it's a class deisgned specifically for pocket sized guns, I'd say that more attention needs to be given to drawing from "unconventional" holsters, anything not a standard IWB or OWB. A lot of small guns are carried in belly bands, pockets holsters, pockets, thunderwear, etc. Acessibility is usually the trade-off issue with these methods of carry.

Other than that, I tend to agree with shotgunkevin. A gun is a gun and you "dance with who brung ya."

If it is geared toward those who carry small guns as backups to a larger size/caliber handgun, consideration needs to be given to weapon transitions, commonality/familiarity and when to deal with primary malfunctions and when to ditch it and go to the back-up.

 

[Oleg Volk]

Some allowance must be made for difference in power. 22LR ratget pistol would look better on paper than 45LC snubbie revolver, but 22LR would lack power to penetrate much. Maybe use steel spinners for some stages -- but then ricochets can become an issue up close.

 

[fireflyfather]

Oleg: Milk jugs full of water, covered with scrap denim using duct tape on the edges. Set them up about 6 jugs deep, by 3 jugs wide at belly button height (adjust up for closer shot, down for longer shots)...like the box of truth setup, but three jugs wide to account for less than optimal shot angle or a poor shot from a snubby/BUG. Just make sure to have them aim at the center jug.

Don't have them do it during any kind of drill. Let it be an aimed shot, just to demonstrate relative penetration (about twice what it would be in flesh). Make sure they use their regular carry ammo.

That ought to give them an idea of relative penetration and expansion (VERY ballpark, but nonetheless). It's also fairly cheap. Figure each person running the course should fire one good round from each weapon they carry (1 or 2), and probably won't penetrate more than six jugs per shot....fairly cheap.

Again, that is assuming you really want to have a discussion about the effectiveness of a BUG.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Oleg,

I'd suggest taking 'Southnarc's' ECQC class to get an idea of the sorts of things that you need to consider teaching your friends. Most people don't figure that 'the bad guy' will ever lay hands on them, since they carry a gun.

That is a serious misapprehension, a mistake, and potentially a fatal one. S'narc's intro is that what he teaches comes into use "when your awareness fails" and an assailant closes with you. Avoiding contact by movement and use of verbal ripostes is the very first thing to keep in mind.

Then comes the physical contact stuff. This is not just gunfighting but up close and dirty fighting to keep your attacker from accessing the gun you are carrying and using it on you, and to enable you to draw and fire safely while at literal contact distance. The gunfighting part is at ranges of 0-3 feet, and that's a range almost no one ever trains at or thinks about. Yet that is precisely where trouble can come most unexpectedly.

hth,

lpl/nc

 

[Ex-MA Hole]

Michael deBethencourt's class on snubbies is GREAT. I have taken his course.

Oleg-

Shoot me a PM if you want his contact info. He is great, down-to-earth ,and VERY nutty guy.

He'll be able to steer you in the right direction.

Really, really, really good course.

Eye opening, too.

 

[Geronimo45]

I'd suggest, if you were sure you could trust 'em to keep their fingers off the trigger, letting 'em draw from their typical holster - be it shoulder, ankle, pocket, afro...
Not everybody carries OWB... and that's a big failing of 'tactical handgun' classes, IMO.

 

[James T Thomas]

backup stance and change of mind

Perhaps most of those in the survey, carrying the snub; who exhibit a "warm feeling" are suffering from fatal naivete'.

The answer to your question may not be a curriculum and exercize, but rather a preliminary education of case histories where the those so armed have not fared well, and were wrong in their perception that they may never need to defend themselves or others. I'm presuming here that this may be the underlying cause for the lack of skill development.
If you could alter that decieved misconception they hold, you may encourage them to develop some skill.

I suppose their motivation would be the beginning of your instruction.

Sorry Oleg, I've not carried, nor posess a snub nose pistol, though I do admire the S&W 638. My only contribution to your question might be a defensive posture for contact distance shooting that would make it difficult for the gun to be snatched, and yet offer body index position for point shooting technique.

 

[crebralfix]

Oleg,

Some points to consider:

1) Will you be instilling the warrior mindset? Or is that assumed because they have taken your other courses?

2) If it's a "technical" only class, then I'd break it up into several parts:

a) Running the gun
b) Speed and accuracy drills out to 21 feet
c) Speed drills in at 3-9 feet
d) Basic combatives
e) Combatives + gun (shooting while in contact after using combatives to get them off you)
f) Moving off the line of force and engaging with empty hand and gun.

I deliberately excluded knives because Oleg expressed intent to focus on guns. However, some combatives training is required in order to generate time to access the handgun.

For parts "e" and "f", you'll probably need to do uncooperative force on force drills with airsoft or Simunitions. They really will need to test whether or not punching the gun hand during the draw messes up the attacker's initiative and game plan.

"Don't believe me; try it for yourself and get the experience."

--Tom Sotis

The above quote is an essential element to this stuff. They really do need to feel the sting of the airsoft pellet to know they missed the block, didn't dodge fast enough, and so forth.

 

[crebralfix]

Another point to consider: ambushes.

They really do need to learn about reacting to threats from behind.

 

[Johannes_Paulsen]

I like the ambush idea.

 

[Gordon]

My "Back up gun" is a S&W Scandium Commander or a Colt Defender in a left hand draw holster with a 5" 1911 in a right hand draw holster

My CCW gun is one of those two left hand drawn lightweight weapons in a right IWB holster.

My "Deep cover " gun is a snubby Colt Agent .38 in an ankle holster or a jacket pocket in a Mika holster.

If you get the latest Issue of SWAT magazine you will see the review of the Close Quarter Combat course I took with Louis Awerbuck this spring. It included disarming techniques with real close shooting.I shot a P-14 right and a P-13 left in matching comptac holsters for that, as I didn't want to carry alot of magazines. The weapon malfunction drills are a breeze by drawing the left hand (weak) gun.