I'm a newbie so forgive the ignorance. I've been reading about defensive carry calibers and it seems that there are only two camps: one is carry as big as you can handle with the .38 being the smallest acceptable; the other is those who carry a small caliber (380, .32, .22) and argue that a small gun that you carry is better than a big gun left at home. Some talk about carrying the larger as primary and the smaller as a BUG, but in this case they still are in camp number one. Does anyone think that both are primary? What I mean is that a large caliber in IWB is necessary and so is the mousegun in the front pocket - not as a backup or last ditch, but potentially as a primary. My point is that they are both primaries. It's not an either-or proposition. The BUG is not a BUG - it may be a primary depending on the situation. Let me give an example: if I'm approached by someone on the street (who may be just asking for directions), I would have my hand on my pocket gun ready for action. It's not practical to lift up my shirt and draw my big gun. But, if the situation starts to deteriorate, then I'm ready to surprise him with the small caliber weapon. On the other hand, if I'm in a mall and I hear shooting, then I will go for the larger caliber. My point is that you need both - equally. One is not a backup as it depends on the situation. I guess I'm confused by the backup gun in an ankle holster proposition as it truly is a last ditch gun. I think you should have one in the pocket and one (larger) in the waistband (I guess you could carry 3). I plan to carry a NAA mini revolver in my pocket and a SIG in the waistband. Maybe this is just a philisophical question, but I'm wondering what others think. I understand that some in the small caliber camp argue that they may only be able to carry the pocket gun due to environment, and maybe that's where this arguement comes from. Maybe I've just read too much arguing about big gun vs. small gun. This is a great forum and I'm wondering what others (more experienced) think. Have I missed something? Thanks.
Misunderstood Backup Gun
- Thread starter iceman
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David E
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A Secondary gun could be pressed into Primary service, but I'd prefer the primary if at all possible.
In your case, how fast can you draw, cock, fire and HIT an IPSC target @ 5 yds in the head one handed? (weak hand, no less) Now try the same drill drawing your primary. Which is faster? Which is easier to hit with? (misses don't count)
Granted, a pocket gun gives you another option, but I chose a particular gun as my primary for a reason.
In your case, how fast can you draw, cock, fire and HIT an IPSC target @ 5 yds in the head one handed? (weak hand, no less) Now try the same drill drawing your primary. Which is faster? Which is easier to hit with? (misses don't count)
Granted, a pocket gun gives you another option, but I chose a particular gun as my primary for a reason.
Carrying any gun bears a huge responsibility. If i was to walk up to you in the street and ask for directions, and i notice you're putting a hand on your pocket gun, that's going to make you look dangerous. I don't know if you want to rob me or if you're just scratching your balls. Show some common courtesy in public, especially if you are carrying a pistol, or two, or three.
Floppy_D
Member In Memoriam
No, I don't think so. A firearm is a tool, nothing more. As if you were working on a project, you tailor your tools to your job. That job changes daily, but purpose doesn't; be able to be ready to do what's necessary, when needed. Whatever you feel you need, you should have. A pocket 38, a locking folder and a cellphone... I'm ready for about anything I could encounter. Odds are I'll need the latter two much more than the first... but it's nice to have the first.
Mr. Bojangles
Member
A very interesting question indeed! You will likely receive a plethora of varying responses to your question. My opinion, for what it's worth, is that a larger caliber is generally preferable to a smaller caliber. That being said, any firearm that is so large that it is left at home isn't of much value to you. I prefer to carry a P220 in .45acp, but frequently carry a smaller firearm, especially during summer months.
I do like your idea and rationale about carrying two firearms. I feel that an individual has to carry/use whatever is right for her/him given the individual circumstance. There is never one right answer.
I do like your idea and rationale about carrying two firearms. I feel that an individual has to carry/use whatever is right for her/him given the individual circumstance. There is never one right answer.
Go to the local dollar store and buy a couple of cheap cell phone cases. Put a roll or two of quarters in each while carrying them where you would wear a holster. After a couple of days of this (at least it's winter so you won't look stupid) decide if you really want to carry a large gun around all of the time or if it's going to sit in a drawer after the novelty of carrying concealed wears off.
I've got the NAA Mini Revolver. It's better than nothing but someone had better be very close and I would not expect it to put someone down in a timely manner. It was a gift and it's a fun little gun though.
I've got the NAA Mini Revolver. It's better than nothing but someone had better be very close and I would not expect it to put someone down in a timely manner. It was a gift and it's a fun little gun though.
MinnMooney
Member
This is an old argument that is very hard to answer because everyone's situation is different.
The best answer (possibly) is to carry the most powerful weapon that you can for the circumstance that you're in. Going to the beach for some fun & sun? Only the smallest of the small will be concealable.
Church on Sunday morning (or Saturday) then your suit jacket will cover a nice Kahr P9 or the looser leg material will allow a S&W 340PD in .357Mag. around the ankle. Very potent carry weapon.
Driving to work or shopping in Minnesota in Dec. - Feb.? A cute little Rem. 870 Wingmaster with the pistol grip butt, side-saddle shell storeage, extended mag., laser, pulsating StreamLite, ghost ring sights and 18.5" barrel can be properly concealed under any fashionable parka.
The best answer (possibly) is to carry the most powerful weapon that you can for the circumstance that you're in. Going to the beach for some fun & sun? Only the smallest of the small will be concealable.
Church on Sunday morning (or Saturday) then your suit jacket will cover a nice Kahr P9 or the looser leg material will allow a S&W 340PD in .357Mag. around the ankle. Very potent carry weapon.
Driving to work or shopping in Minnesota in Dec. - Feb.? A cute little Rem. 870 Wingmaster with the pistol grip butt, side-saddle shell storeage, extended mag., laser, pulsating StreamLite, ghost ring sights and 18.5" barrel can be properly concealed under any fashionable parka.
Welcome to THR!
Your post delves into two things, the small-vs-large handgun, and the subject of secondary/alternate weapons. The terms "BUG" and "backup" are just words, and some folks can get all wrapped up in the meaning of words. One way to look at a BUG is that it is any firearm that is not in the "go-to" carry position, regardless of the size or capacity of the weapon. A snubby carried in one's usual carry position may therefore be more "primary" than a Browning Hi-Power carried in a shoulder rig or book bag. We could call this "Positional BUG." Another way to look at the BUG/primary relationship is that any weapon that is not in hand, or not the handiest to access, at a given moment in time, is the backup. That certainly makes sense, too. This might be called "Situational BUG." Either way, a smaller weapon could be one's "go-to" weapon.
Then, there is the familiar concept of one's larger weapon being primary, because in a gunfight, the larger weapon will usually throw a larger and/or faster projectile, which will be more effective under a wider variety of circumstances, plus, the larger weapon is normally going to have better handling qualities, allowing better shot placement under stress.
I reckon I am the guy who just doesn't worry about the terminology, just as I don't care how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. From early 2002 to late 2007, my usual carry guns when not at work were two, and sometimes even three, SP101 snubbies. I virtually always wore one on my right hip, so it would be the "go-to" gun most of the time, though if one was in a pocket rig, and I was walking past or through I "bad" area, my hand in a firing grip on the pocketed snubby, it would certainly be primary at that moment in time. Regardless, the guns were relatively equal. My right hip is my default location to always reach for a weapon. At work, I wear a badge, and the "strong side" hip is where I carry at work. Consistency is a good thing. (Yes, for those who have seen my lefty posts, I am indeed a lefty, but I am a very complicated lefty. Long story, and this factor is one reason I do carry multiple weapons.)
FWIW, I started carrying concealed in 1984, and still do so. I used the 2002-2007 time period in the above paragraph because I carried two equal guns most of that time, and really started the habit of carrying multiple guns when off the clock at that time. Since late 2007, I have carried at least one P229 virtually all the time, and still carry alternate weapons, often a second P229.
I have already said much, and don't want to put anyone to sleep, so I won't get too deeply into the small-vs-big gun debate, except to say an NAA Mini-revolver is not something I would consider an adequate secondary weapon. I don't have large hands, and a mini-revolver is just too small for me to manipulate well in a hurry. Guys with bigger hands will have even more issues. Such a tiny weapon might be of comfort and utility if one is taken hostage, as it might be overlooked during a search of one's person; for that reason, I will not argue against such weapons. We must all choose our own salvation. I strongly disagree with the choice micro-firearms for gunfighting. It is not so much the tiny cartridge, as the size of the weapon. Gross motor skills are much more likely to be successful during body alarm reaction, than fine motor skills.
Your post delves into two things, the small-vs-large handgun, and the subject of secondary/alternate weapons. The terms "BUG" and "backup" are just words, and some folks can get all wrapped up in the meaning of words. One way to look at a BUG is that it is any firearm that is not in the "go-to" carry position, regardless of the size or capacity of the weapon. A snubby carried in one's usual carry position may therefore be more "primary" than a Browning Hi-Power carried in a shoulder rig or book bag. We could call this "Positional BUG." Another way to look at the BUG/primary relationship is that any weapon that is not in hand, or not the handiest to access, at a given moment in time, is the backup. That certainly makes sense, too. This might be called "Situational BUG." Either way, a smaller weapon could be one's "go-to" weapon.
Then, there is the familiar concept of one's larger weapon being primary, because in a gunfight, the larger weapon will usually throw a larger and/or faster projectile, which will be more effective under a wider variety of circumstances, plus, the larger weapon is normally going to have better handling qualities, allowing better shot placement under stress.
I reckon I am the guy who just doesn't worry about the terminology, just as I don't care how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. From early 2002 to late 2007, my usual carry guns when not at work were two, and sometimes even three, SP101 snubbies. I virtually always wore one on my right hip, so it would be the "go-to" gun most of the time, though if one was in a pocket rig, and I was walking past or through I "bad" area, my hand in a firing grip on the pocketed snubby, it would certainly be primary at that moment in time. Regardless, the guns were relatively equal. My right hip is my default location to always reach for a weapon. At work, I wear a badge, and the "strong side" hip is where I carry at work. Consistency is a good thing. (Yes, for those who have seen my lefty posts, I am indeed a lefty, but I am a very complicated lefty. Long story, and this factor is one reason I do carry multiple weapons.)
FWIW, I started carrying concealed in 1984, and still do so. I used the 2002-2007 time period in the above paragraph because I carried two equal guns most of that time, and really started the habit of carrying multiple guns when off the clock at that time. Since late 2007, I have carried at least one P229 virtually all the time, and still carry alternate weapons, often a second P229.
I have already said much, and don't want to put anyone to sleep, so I won't get too deeply into the small-vs-big gun debate, except to say an NAA Mini-revolver is not something I would consider an adequate secondary weapon. I don't have large hands, and a mini-revolver is just too small for me to manipulate well in a hurry. Guys with bigger hands will have even more issues. Such a tiny weapon might be of comfort and utility if one is taken hostage, as it might be overlooked during a search of one's person; for that reason, I will not argue against such weapons. We must all choose our own salvation. I strongly disagree with the choice micro-firearms for gunfighting. It is not so much the tiny cartridge, as the size of the weapon. Gross motor skills are much more likely to be successful during body alarm reaction, than fine motor skills.
Unless you're living in an open-fire zone (and we do have such places), this level of preparation is excessive. Other citizens may approach you for all manner of reasons. To thank you, to smile at you, and yes, to ask for directions.
Goblins will approach with hard-luck stories about needing money for a bus ticket or gas, a request for cigarettes or a light, those are the times to get nervous. From a study posted here earlier, the majority of shootings occur in the 3-to-6 foot range. Statistically, you won't have time to draw and aim in a typical street encounter. Be prepared to use boxing skills or similar to engage the first threat parameter.
michiganfan
Member
There is also the possiblity that your strong hand will be injured or will be otherwise occupied in trying to fend off an attack. In that case having a gun your support hand can access on your suppport side becomes very handy.
I'm fairly new too and will offer you some newbie-to newbie suggestions. Let's not confuse ourselves. I took a CCW follow-on class after the basic permit course, and the instructor stressed carrying all the time, the same way, every day, and training the same way you would fight. You don't want to be walking around as a new guy, then having something go down and wondering which pocket you ought to reach into, etc., etc. He warned us not to overestimate our ability to think through options under stress. People tend to revert to their training in a gunfight. I have a S&W 442 in a Nemesis pocket holster. It's always there unless I'm in a place where I'm not legally allowed to carry. I'm responsible for that gun, I know where it is at all times, I know how to use it and how to secure it. I wouldn't want to try to keep track of more than one weapon at this point, I'm just learning how to handle CCW and don't want any screw ups under stress. K.I.S.S., and the second "S" applies especially to ME. 
I am going to take more SD courses later this spring / summer. Training and practice are key.
I am going to take more SD courses later this spring / summer. Training and practice are key.you are right
That is to say , at least you are not wrong. A secondary gun gives you more options. Whether you call it a BUG or your second primary really doesn't much matter. There are people who carry two, or more, full sized guns. If I could comfortably carry two large guns I would. As it is, I carry either a 1911or a Glock 23 on my right hip and an LCP in my left front pocket. As you say, in your post, having your hand in your pocket doesn't usually raise a red flag to most people. As a Cowboy action shooter I taught myself to shoot with my left hand. I now consider it a valuable skill and practice it regularly with my defensive handguns.
When you practice, try to use your BUG as you would in a real fight. Don't just draw it from your pocket and shoot as you would if it was your primary. Regardless of size, should the need arize, it is indeed your backup gun. Employ it as such. What I do when I practice is this. While shooting my primary, I induce failures by putting dummy rounds in some of my mags. I have several so it is easy to not know when a failure will occur. I will load 2 dummy rounds back to back in some mags and one in others and most mags with no dummy rounds at all. If a single FTF occurs I clear the round and get back into the fight. If two failures occur in a row I now have a choice to make, either change mags or go to the backup gun. When I go to the BUG I do not waste time trying to reholster the primary. Since my primary is in my right hand I must draw and fire using only my left hand. I also like to incorporate movement into my practice. Try shooting your BUG while "moving to cover" then get your primary back up.
While I know that the NAA revolver is a fine little pistol I think you would be better off with a small pocket auto like the Kel-tec or the LCP or even a J-frame sized revolver.
That is to say , at least you are not wrong. A secondary gun gives you more options. Whether you call it a BUG or your second primary really doesn't much matter. There are people who carry two, or more, full sized guns. If I could comfortably carry two large guns I would. As it is, I carry either a 1911or a Glock 23 on my right hip and an LCP in my left front pocket. As you say, in your post, having your hand in your pocket doesn't usually raise a red flag to most people. As a Cowboy action shooter I taught myself to shoot with my left hand. I now consider it a valuable skill and practice it regularly with my defensive handguns.
When you practice, try to use your BUG as you would in a real fight. Don't just draw it from your pocket and shoot as you would if it was your primary. Regardless of size, should the need arize, it is indeed your backup gun. Employ it as such. What I do when I practice is this. While shooting my primary, I induce failures by putting dummy rounds in some of my mags. I have several so it is easy to not know when a failure will occur. I will load 2 dummy rounds back to back in some mags and one in others and most mags with no dummy rounds at all. If a single FTF occurs I clear the round and get back into the fight. If two failures occur in a row I now have a choice to make, either change mags or go to the backup gun. When I go to the BUG I do not waste time trying to reholster the primary. Since my primary is in my right hand I must draw and fire using only my left hand. I also like to incorporate movement into my practice. Try shooting your BUG while "moving to cover" then get your primary back up.
While I know that the NAA revolver is a fine little pistol I think you would be better off with a small pocket auto like the Kel-tec or the LCP or even a J-frame sized revolver.
I will carry two guns on occasion. When I do it's usually some configuration of Springfield XD45 (OWB or IWB), and a Ruger LCP in the front pocket. I don't care if my hand is in my pocket, on the grip, I can still draw and hit faster with the big gun. The back-up is there for back-up, or to arm a trusted friend who would otherwise go without in an emergency situation.
A BUG is a good option. Having said that, if your thinking is anything like my wife's, more is always better. Why not several bugs? I would only carry one, always having it in the same place on your body and having the mindset that it is secondary. The last thing you want is a moments delay in responding to a threat because of indecision. The only exception I would make to that is if you're ankle carrying. Then your position and the situation might dictate that the BUG is a better option at that particular time and place.
The perfect system i have settled on over time is a g30 at 3oclock and a g27 either in my back pocket or ankle or at 6 oclock sometimes. It always depends on clothing. I have to consider perspiration damage to my guns due to a hot climate. Therefore my sigs and such are retired. I did have a sig all hardchromed for when i get dressed up to go out with the wife. Weddings ,funerals and dinner out ,etc.
The g30 , g27 bu combo is great. Both in crossbreed supertucks of relative size. A glock is a super reliable ,high cap sd firearm that will never let you down once broken in. BTW ,very short breakin times i have found. 75 to 100 rds of what i carry(hydra shoks or hornady xtp's)
One thing i heard ear;ly on in my carrying sd guns was "if you have a ccw you better have at least 100.000 bucks in the bank allocated for just that. If you have to use it ,good shooting or not ,it's gonna cost you in lawyer's fees one way or another "
Not quite at the $100.000 mark and don't see it happening anytime soon but i carry anyway because i like another saying better.
"better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6" Amen.
The g30 , g27 bu combo is great. Both in crossbreed supertucks of relative size. A glock is a super reliable ,high cap sd firearm that will never let you down once broken in. BTW ,very short breakin times i have found. 75 to 100 rds of what i carry(hydra shoks or hornady xtp's)
One thing i heard ear;ly on in my carrying sd guns was "if you have a ccw you better have at least 100.000 bucks in the bank allocated for just that. If you have to use it ,good shooting or not ,it's gonna cost you in lawyer's fees one way or another "
Not quite at the $100.000 mark and don't see it happening anytime soon but i carry anyway because i like another saying better.
"better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6" Amen.
armoredman
Member
dromeo, shockwave, you are both missing a huge thing in his post - howinthehell are you going to know his hand is on a pocket gun? It's concealed. I carry a BUG, Taurus CIA Ultralite 38 snub, in a Mikas pocket holster, and I can draw, fire and hit a B-27 in vital zones at 7 yards rather quickly, weak hand only. If someone sees me standing with my hand in my pocket, what's to say I am not just standing there casually? That's the massive advantage to the poclet gun, whether it bew 38 Snub or 380 subcompact, is you can have a grip on it with no one being the wiser. One 23 year veteran of Detroit PD Homicide said he often has a hand wrapped around a J frame in a pocket rig, on and off the job. I don'tt live in Beruit, but I also don't live in Utopia. I'll keep my BUG, and a good way to unobtrusively have it available.
moxie
Member
Good advice above. Short answer is carry as much gun as you can, consistent with the threat. This might mean an AR, or a Model 12, a 1911 on the hip, and a pocket gun, along with a bayonet, Gerber Mk I, and the proverbial general purpose all purpose multipurpose knife, in the boot. On the other hand for many of us the threat is rather remote. And we're limited by concealed carry laws. That generally means a fairly small gun on/in the belt under clothing (small Glock, for example), or a pocket gun like the 642. Or both if you feel the need. You get to define your perceived threat. Carry what you think you need, consistent with the law. Oh by the way, it is not legal to carry concealed in church in many areas.
Stars and Stripes
Member
Backup Gun Holster
Speaking in terms of any assignment where you would wear body armor, I carry a S&W model 469 (older model, but its been very good to me) in a vest holster as a backup. The gun has a 12 round mag and is fairly heavy, but very comfortable, secure, accessible and concealed in the vest holster. Couldn't find many other places on my 6'3" frame to carry that size of a gun. This particular holster sews onto your vest cover and essentially becomes one unit with your vest cover.
With this holster, if you wear a vest, you'll always have your backup gun holster with you. It also comes with a ballistic panel that covers your gun, which minimizes the chances of suffering any injuries from a ricochet or bullet fragments should you take a round in your backup.
This is the same holster Calibre Press used to sell. To check it out, go to www.bugpocket.com.
Speaking in terms of any assignment where you would wear body armor, I carry a S&W model 469 (older model, but its been very good to me) in a vest holster as a backup. The gun has a 12 round mag and is fairly heavy, but very comfortable, secure, accessible and concealed in the vest holster. Couldn't find many other places on my 6'3" frame to carry that size of a gun. This particular holster sews onto your vest cover and essentially becomes one unit with your vest cover.
With this holster, if you wear a vest, you'll always have your backup gun holster with you. It also comes with a ballistic panel that covers your gun, which minimizes the chances of suffering any injuries from a ricochet or bullet fragments should you take a round in your backup.
This is the same holster Calibre Press used to sell. To check it out, go to www.bugpocket.com.
I haven't read all the responses but feel like responding anyway with a few things I've come to believe in during my short time carrying (where I can carry).
1. Get some training and then get some more training.
2. Practice what you learned regularly.
3. Three seconds into a self defense situation you are going to be wishing you had more firepower. Even if you are carrying a 12 gauge you're going to be cursing yourself for not getting that magazine extension.
4. Select your carry weapons based on need and dress around them, not the other way around.
5. Learn how people (threats) are incapacitated by handguns. Don't expect that six or twenty shots from your weapon is going to stop the threat. Many people have been killed by mortally wounded bad guys. (I met a guy once that had been shot 14 times by a 9mm and while it was a lousy experience for him not one of the bullets hit a vital area. Yeah he had some very interesting scars from the experience too.) Shot placement is everything.
1. Get some training and then get some more training.
2. Practice what you learned regularly.
3. Three seconds into a self defense situation you are going to be wishing you had more firepower. Even if you are carrying a 12 gauge you're going to be cursing yourself for not getting that magazine extension.
4. Select your carry weapons based on need and dress around them, not the other way around.
5. Learn how people (threats) are incapacitated by handguns. Don't expect that six or twenty shots from your weapon is going to stop the threat. Many people have been killed by mortally wounded bad guys. (I met a guy once that had been shot 14 times by a 9mm and while it was a lousy experience for him not one of the bullets hit a vital area. Yeah he had some very interesting scars from the experience too.) Shot placement is everything.
Primary is the first line of defense, the larger more eficiant weapon, secondary is your fallback position, should you not be able to use your primary for any reason. That's why in Combat AR, is primary and auto pistol is second. Then it's a knife and after that bare hands. Unless you have some grenades on you. The ability for a civilian to carry around large amounts of weapons depends on their individual preference and daily routine. It's tough to walk around wallgreens with an M4, so we take it down to an acceptable level.
bustedknee
Member
My "backup" is usually a .22. Either a S&W 63 (j-frame) or a NAA .22 in a pocket.
If it was strictly for backup I would carry the same caliber as my main gun.
However, it serves a second duty. 22 rf is a great cartridge for snakes or fininshing off a deer hit by a car. The j-frame is a dandy grouse shooter.
I should trade that S&W 63 for a S&W 317 and carry it on my ankle.
If it was strictly for backup I would carry the same caliber as my main gun.
However, it serves a second duty. 22 rf is a great cartridge for snakes or fininshing off a deer hit by a car. The j-frame is a dandy grouse shooter.
I should trade that S&W 63 for a S&W 317 and carry it on my ankle.
You probably won't. One thing you learn from martial arts training in general is that you cannot defeat all threats. If a little girl selling lemonade from a sidewalk stand decides to detonate her suicide vest as you approach, you've had it.
So you can only rely on your situational awareness. Let me give you an example. My sword school is an a very bad part of town (great place to be carrying swords, I'll tell ya) and I was at a gas station there filling up and this lower SES woman approaches me with some hard-luck tale about needing gas money, purse stolen, etc. I give her a buck and wish her well. Then I see her companion walking with her into the store and he gives me a look. At that point, I went to a much higher level of preparedness.
Earlier in the year, walking to the entrance of the supermarket, an old fellow down on his luck begged me for a cigarette. I don't smoke, but I asked him what he liked and he said, "Kool 100s" so I bought him a pack and gave him a 5-spot to boot. You learn to read everything and gauge threats based on pattern recognition. This may be a level of skill beyond the norm.
Elm Creek Smith
Member
I generally carry two primaries, a .357 Magnum and a .38 Spl. If I'm only carrying one of them, I have a KelTec P32 in my pocket.
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