Help me not lust after a EAA Witness...

[Caimlas]

So I became aware of the EAA Witness last night, and it's been driving me crazy.

I've been lusting after a CZ75B for a year or so now, but I just haven't had the money. I've looked at them at gun shops and almost fell to the temptation to whip out the credit card.

From all appearances, the Witness is a good $100 less and nearly identical except for finish and a small difference in the metal grip's contour.

My question, for those who have shot both, is what, if any, practical difference is there between the Witness and CZ75B grip contours (the Witness appears to be a little more 'rough' with more of a bump)? Do you prefer one over the other? Which fits the hand better?

Also, the CZ site mentions the cz75 is 2.2lb (35oz) whereas everything I can find on the Witness says it's 33oz. But, the CZ looks like it's had a significant amount of 'extra' metal cut off of it (at least from pictures I've seen. Are they using different "base" gun configurations to do the weight analysis or something?

Is there any other significant difference I should be aware of? Like, how is EAA Q/A? Wear of the Wonder Finish (which, personally, I think looks awesome)? Any "caliber compatibility" issues w/ the Witness frame (ie switching from 9mm to .45 or .22)?

Please, help!

 

[papajohn]

I don't know how much help I can be here, but I'll try. I've had a Witness 40 since 1991, but I haven't done anything with it but hammer bowling pins and harass clay pigeons at 50 yards. I have close to 35,000 rounds through it, and unless it's absolutely filthy, it's as reliable as any gun I've ever seen. I've often said it would feed gravel, if I could figure out a way to get it in the magazine.

A buddy recently let me talk him into buying a CZ-75 in 40, black finish, full size. Nice gun, I've shot it almost as much as he has.

Both guns are well-designed, but there are a few differences. I think the finish on the CZ's is nicer, and the trigger is better, especially in DA fire. I can't tell any difference in accuracy between them, but most of the shooting has been pretty fast, and not too far.

I think it's mostly an aesthetic issue, but if I had to buy one or the other, I'd probably go with the CZ this time. Not knocking the Witness, I was excited when I got it, but that was 16 years ago. The black finish on mine has been gone from the circumference of the grip for a LONG time, but the rest of it looks good, and it gets carried Mexican-style fairly often. I think you get a little more fit and finish on the CZ, and you pay for it. Aside from that I doubt there's much real difference between them. Hope this helps.

Papajohn

 

[wally]

In 9mm or .40S&W get the CZ. In .45ACP, 10mm, or .38Super get the Witness since CZ doesn't have a CZ-75-like pistol.

I've a pretty full set of EAA Witness pistols and I've had troubles in 9mm and .40S&W with hot loads because the short rounds move around in the long (.45ACP sized) magazines leading to feed failures. EAA is supplying 9mm and .40S&W mags with an internal spacer which helps but did not cure the problem completely for me. I have managed to adjust the feed lips to seemingly get all my EAA 9mm and .40S&W mags working well now.

If you can scrape up an extra $100 or so, the EAA Witness Elite Match are much better than their modest price premium would indicate.

A big plus of the standard EAA steel framed Witness is you can add calibers by buying spare uppers for ~$200.

Use the search, I've posted a lot about my experience with my EAA Witness pistols. They are among my favorite range guns, one pretty much always comes along as does a 1911. I rate the Elite Match triggers second only to the 1911 trigger. The standard triggers get almost as good as the Match with a lot of shooting, but the Match don't give the DA option, but since the guns lack a decocker, its no loss IMHO.

Another thing I really like about the Witness is you can rack the slide with the hammer cocked and the safety on for loading and unloading. CZ 75 or 1911 won't do this.

--wally.

 

[66912]

Before I got my first CZ 9mm, I had both a TA-90 and then a Witness. Both of these guns had rubber grips so the contour felt more squared than a CZ (I hope that makes sense). Both guns were also full size 9mm's so compared to the full size CZ I currently have, they were much heavier. CZ has the best finish of all of them, but I still think the others were very nice, accurate handguns.

 

[dalepres]

I know what you mean about lusting for the Witness. I first discovered them a couple month's ago and it seems that hardly a day goes buy that I don't look at them online or read a forum about them online.

No matter what else I look at, Taurus, Glock, Sig, or anything else, I keep coming back to the Witness.

I still haven't found a source for conversion kits and that is one of the reasons - but not the only reason - that I want a Witness.

I'm waiting for the loooooong 90+ day CCW application process in OK so it's not a huge hurry but I keep drooling none-the-less.

Dale

 

[loop]

The Witness is made by Tanfoglio in Italy. I have two in .45. One is a full-size steel version and the other is the compact with the polymer frame.

Both are extremely reliable and accurate. The compact gets a bit finicky about some hollowpoints or semi-wadcutters, but as long as I stick to ammo I know it likes there are no glitches.

The full-size steel frame has become my IDPA and USPSA competition gun. I shot a Kimber in IDPA for more than 10 years and then I had to order a part. I took a SIG P220 and the Witness to the next match. I realized I could shoot the first string on two mags with the Witness and it would take three in the SIG so I tried the Witness.

I won the match and it wasn't even close (and I'm usually a middle-of-the-pack shooter). Since then it has become my primary "big" .45.

I don't know about the other calibers because all I shoot in a handgun is .45 ACP, even in my revolvers (well, I've got Makarovs, TT33s, CZs, a Kahr in .40 and some other oddballs, but they only come out for kicks and grins). But, I'd rather shoot my Tanfoglio than any of the others.

It is heavy, but that means follow-up shots are quicker because recoil does not pull it as far off the target. It doesn't matter what I feed it, as long as it is 230-grain its dead on.

It is imported by EAA and that is a negative. Their customer service sucks. But, there a number of suppliers of parts and accessories and custom smiths that can take care of any issue you might have.

It is also worthy of note that outside the U.S. the Tanfoglio is considered the top competition gun in the world. Eric Grauffel has won four straight European championships and a world championship with a Tanfoglio. http://www.ericgrauffel.com/

What is really amazing to me about my competition gun is the only things I've ever done to it is replace the mag springs, the recoil spring and put a drop of red paint on the front sight.

I like it so much I bought a custom holster with hand-tooling to carry it in at matches. Holster cost half as much as the gun.

I don't shoot 9mm so can't answer the 75 question. But, I have shot a 97 from CZ and it is not the same as the Witness.

Also, if you're looking at 9 or 40 there are lots of goodies out there for the Tanfoglio. Check out this site: http://www.tanfoglioparts.com/

Do I like my Tanfoglio? I'll sell my SIGs, my Kimbers and even my highly-customized Para, but my Witness ain't for sale. You can offer me five times what it lists for, it ain't for sale.

 

[loop]

Forgot, conversion kits for .22lr, 9mm, 38 super, .40 S&W and 10mm are available through EAA for about $229. You can usually find them cheaper through secondary suppliers though.

http://www.eaacorp.com/

They can be converted to 41 AE, 400 Corbon and 357 SIG and some other chamberings through specialty suppliers as well.

 

[wally]

I still haven't found a source for conversion kits

You can get them direct from EAA or shop.reedsammo.com sells them a bit cheaper without the green box.

My Witness .45s have all been 100% out of the box, just wish I could say the same about the other calibers.

--wally.

 

[Caimlas]

wally, have you had signicant problems with the other calibers? I was thinking of a 10mm (possibly). Is it the conversion - ie, a known problem with the conversion - or is it just luck of the draw with EAA products? IE, they've got poor product QA control.

 

[Craig M. Arnold]

Witness vs CZ

Well I've had them all and a lot of each type. My advice would be to get a CZ over a Wintess. However, for a little more than the CZ you could have a Witness Elite Match. I had one in 9MM it was very good. However the one I have now is in 45acp and it is one of the finest pistol I ever had. It is as accurate as some of my handguns that cost four to five times as much.

BTW - What ever you get, Witness, CZ or Witness Match, you will not go wrong.

Best regards.

 

[schmeky]

Craig Arnold,

I always like your input. Respect it. I have been thinking about an Elite in .45 to go with my CZ-SP-01. I think you may have just pushed my over the deciding line.

 

[kennedy]

I have a witness silver team in .40 and its my favorite gun to take to the range, am now reloading for it and getting 2inch groups at 25 yds, it has a aimpoint red dot up on top and a real hoot to shoot, so far no problems with jamming or anything else.

 

[dalepres]

I understand that earlier .40 and 9mm were smaller frames than the comparable .45 or 10mm - i.e. compact against compact or full-size versus full-size.

Is it correct that they are all the same now? I need a .45, I'd like to have a 10mm, I'd like a .40SW and would love a 9mm.

The nice thing is, the Witness can be all of those if I buy the .45 and order conversion kits for all the rest. On the one hand, they're inexpensive enough to buy them all but I like the idea of carrying the 45 and, in an emergency, I can have a roll up pouch that will allow me to use almost any ammunition I can get my hands on.

I read somewhere else, I think on these forums, that the best model for defense guns is to use the same gun for everyone in the family. Not everyone may agree with that but it made sense to me. The Witness seems to fit that role, too. I could have 9mm for the wife and .45 for me and the only parts that are different are right in my grab kit.

Ok. Enough drooling, huh?

Thanks to all of you experts for your great suggestions and info. Sorry, Caimlas - don't mean to hijack your thread.

Dale

 

[wally]

wally, have you had significant problems with the other calibers? I was thinking of a 10mm (possibly). Is it the conversion - ie, a known problem with the conversion - or is it just luck of the draw with EAA products? IE, they've got poor product QA control.

Use the search, I've posted quite a lot about my Witness experiences. I love the guns but except in .45ACP the mags are a crap shoot.

Other than the cracked Compact 10mm slide which was repaired door-to-door in 7 days, all my 10mm problems have been the magazines. I posted a thread about how I fixed them. I got he Compact and Standard steel frame guns as 10mm and added .45ACP conversions.

I've the Elite Match in 10mm, .45ACP, 9mm, & .40S&W. Also had mag issues with the 9mm and .40 that appear to be resolved now.

Until I adjusted the feed lips, the 9mm would not feed anything but FMJ and the .40S&W had the same problems as the 10mm -- nose up jams from the mag losing control of the top round under recoil, the spacer in the new .40S&W mags help but I had to adjust the feed lips and then modify the follower so they'd lock back again.

My .40S&W EAA mags were fine out of the box with Wolf ammo which seems loaded light and the steel cases have more friction than brass cases, the combination of light load and extra friction kept the rounds under control in the mag and the gun was fine. But hot loads were unreliable until I gave the feed lips more purchase on the rounds which then required work on the followers to get them to lock back again.

I agree that the Elite Match series are the best ~$500 gun available and well worth getting. Its just I'd hesitate to recommend the 9mm, 10mm, or .40S&W versions for other than range use, but if you get mags that work it shouldn't be an issue. Mags seem to be the crap shoot with EAA guns except in .45ACP where I've had no problems with either the EAA or Mec-Gar .45 Witness mags.

There is another aggravation with the EAA mags and the Elite guns, the mag than comes with the gun has had the base plate "fitted", the spares you get from EAA do not so often they will not lock in because the baseplate is too thick. The standard guns have a gap between the baseplate and bottom of the frame so this is not an issue but with the Match a few strokes of a large file on the top of the baseplates is needed to "fit" them so they will lock in the gun.

I also have a Limited in .45ACP with a Red Dot on it and it is really sweet, but this is a $1000 gun when you add the scope mount. All my EAA .45s have been 100% out of the box.

--wally.

 

[papajohn]

For what it's worth, my gun is one of the older ones in 40SW, and none of my magazines have spacers. In fact, my buddy with the CZ and I can swap mags, they're completely interchangeable. And as I said before, mine is 100% reliable for 500 rounds or better, unless I'm shooting lead, which I avoid, too much dirt and smoke. I've loaded ammo every length possible, trying tomake it choke, and it just won't. Maybe the newer standard guns are a compromise, to make them cheaper to manufacture. Anybody know?

I've recommended this gun in 40 to a lot of people, if they've changed the design platform and compromised the quality I'd like to know.

Papajohn

 

[wally]

my gun is one of the older ones in 40SW, ... In fact, my buddy with the CZ and I can swap mags, they're completely interchangeable

If you can use CZ mags, you have the "small frame" Witness which can not take 10mm, .45ACP or .38Super uppers. These would be immune to the problem I'm talking about since the lengthof the mag matches the lengrh of the round.

In fact, I "fixed" my Witness-P .40S&W by epoxying a spacer in the rear of the mag well so I could use the Baby Eagle mags CDNN was selling -- these are sized for 9mm and .40S&W.

I think EAA stopped importing the small framed guns a year or two ago. Their existence confuses any discussion of EAA Witness pistols.

--wally.

 

[jakeswensonmt]

Can't help you. I'm in the same boat and will only make it worse.

 

[mxa]

Does anyone know where you can buy the Witness elite models on-line?

 

[ChrisMG]

MXA, reeds ammo sells them online, and you can also find them occasionally on GunBroker.

wally: I'm interested in an Elite Match in 10MM but am wondering if the conversions fit the match well (i.e. using a 9MM conversion slide on the 10MM match frame)? Also, does your 10MM match feed 40S&W decently or is that asking for trouble?

 

[Omega]

Both are a great guns - accurate and reliable.

 

[wally]

I've tried the 10mm mags in my .40S&W Witness, very unreliable. Shooting .40S&W ammo in a 10mm barrel is not a great idea.

The standard uppers fit my Match frames but part of what makes the match better is the frame to slide fit is much tighter so I never shot the standard upper on the Match frame. I've heard that EAA will fit and sell additional Match uppers to your frame. Don't know the cost.

--wally.

 

[schmeky]

I wish I could help you. I just order a Witness Elite Match .45ACP off Gunbroker.

I'm so weak . . . . .

 

[wally]

I just order a Witness Elite Match .45ACP

You won't regret it!

--wally.

 

[schmeky]

Thanx Wally. I have 1911 .45 & 1911 9mm combo. This will be my "CZ" combo to go with my SP-01.

I'm sure I'll post some pics and target results in the next few weeks with this new Witness.

 

[Scratchy]

I too have been lusting over a 10mm Witness but do not know if I should get the Elite or save money for ammo and get the regular one. Is the Elite that much better? And do I have to carry it cocked and locked like my 1911?