Serpico
Member
Alan...When I see someone with 3, I feel silly not having at least one.....off to the store....well, the grocery store anyway...
Help me pick my "primary" CCW
- Thread starter Alan Fud
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Maddogkiller
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- Mar 29, 2003
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Someone on this board, and I think it is someone that has posted on this thread sent me an email and I deleted it before I realized that it wasn't spam.
If you still want to communicate with me, resend and I will look more carefully next time.
If you still want to communicate with me, resend and I will look more carefully next time.
Jeepin' Lawyer
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- Joined
- Apr 11, 2003
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- 28
I had to go w/ the .45.
Love the LDA trigger.
Love the LDA trigger.
chaim
Member
At first I was avoiding posting here because my first thought was that you were trying to start trouble but you may just be sincere (at least in an "academic" way trying to see people's choices and rationale) so here is my take on this.
Two similar sized guns, no capacity advantage to the 9mm due to same number of rounds. I still don't see it as clear cut one way or the other.
Both are very capable calibers. I think all the major calibers (9mm and up for auto calibers) in quality premium defensive loadings are very similar in capability. Yes, there may be small differences, but are the small differences outweighed by other considerations? Maybe. It is true that 9mm may have a power advantage over .45acp in the smallest barrels since the .45 drops off faster out of small barrels and 9mm doesn't need much barrel length to achieve its top power. However, your two choices are long enough I don't think that is a factor, and without that the .45 (again assuming good defensive ammo) has a slight advantage (for the major advantage of the old reputation you need to use ball ammo which isn't well suited to self defense anyway)- but again that is only in power.
Other considerations I think can make the real difference.
As you know, while it is valuable to practice your accuracy generally the most valuable practice and training is the training you do with the gun you actually use for self defense. Unless you are rich or reload most people can afford to do a lot more practice with the 9mm. If you can't afford to practice as much (or very close to it) with the .45acp then you should consider staying with the 9mm.
Weight? The LDA is heavier (probably significantly so). Are you sure you are comfortable with its weight? Would it affect your carry style, carry location, or even how often you'd carry your main gun?
Familiarity. Which are you more familiar with? In this case, since you've had the 3913 for some time, and you have three of them
, that has the clear advantage here. If you want to use the LDA I would keep using the 3913 for a while and get a few months more practice w/ the LDA first.
Manual of arms (related to above). These two are very different and to top it off you occasionally use a snub as well. The LDA has a light enough trigger that, just like a SA, I would never consider using it without the safety. Do you use the safety on the 3913 or do you decock it and use the long DA first trigger pull as your safety (point and shoot)? Either way the transition to the LDA could get you in trouble in a self defense situation. The safeties work in opposite directions so you could find yourself trying to push the safety in the wrong direction to disengage it in a high stress SD situation (even with a lot of practice you still have, what, years of practice with the other system to overcome and the chance of reverting to that under stress is there). If you are used to point and shoot (if you decock and then disengage the safety in the S&W) then you may end up forgetting to disengage the safety in a high stress defensive situation (again, even with a lot of practice with the new system there is the chance of reverting to the old system under stress). Also, the point and shoot option on the S&W is especially valuable since you sometimes switch off to a snub (the same manual of arms is a very valuable characteristic).
Reliability? Since you've had about 500 good rounds out of the LDA but some trouble in the first 200 it is up to you. 500 is pretty good w/out a hiccup. However, compared to what in the S&W, how many rounds w/out a hiccup? I do know the S&W is generally more reliable, but once you have the gun each one is different and your LDA may be great.
Which platform do you prefer? I love 1911s but I also love S&W autos (they have grown on me and I can't wait to get one). Which do you like better? We see which you are more familiar with, but caliber independent would you still be thinking about switching? If yes, train and develop the LDA familiarity and switch (assuming the other criteria I've mentioned point that way). If no, then you may want to stay w/ the 3913.
To me the number one criteria here are (in order): reliability, whether you can afford to practice enough with the .45, which platform you are most used to and keeping as consistent as possible a manual or arms are about equal (both can be addressed w/ more practice though), which you like better, everything else. Given that, and your degree of familiarity with the S&W and its manual of arms, if you really want to switch to .45acp I'd strongly suggest getting a gun closer to what you are already familiar with (S&W or other traditional DA auto, followed by DAO since that would be the least adjustment, and last a SA or LDA type action).
Remeber, we aren't talking .45acp JHPs or 9mm ball, ball in both or .32acp v. 45acp. We are talking about two calibers where there is a difference in power, but not a huge one. When they are relatively close you really need to look at other criteria other than just power (how many other issues do you decide what to buy/use based on only one out of several possible criteria).
Two similar sized guns, no capacity advantage to the 9mm due to same number of rounds. I still don't see it as clear cut one way or the other.
Both are very capable calibers. I think all the major calibers (9mm and up for auto calibers) in quality premium defensive loadings are very similar in capability. Yes, there may be small differences, but are the small differences outweighed by other considerations? Maybe. It is true that 9mm may have a power advantage over .45acp in the smallest barrels since the .45 drops off faster out of small barrels and 9mm doesn't need much barrel length to achieve its top power. However, your two choices are long enough I don't think that is a factor, and without that the .45 (again assuming good defensive ammo) has a slight advantage (for the major advantage of the old reputation you need to use ball ammo which isn't well suited to self defense anyway)- but again that is only in power.
Other considerations I think can make the real difference.
As you know, while it is valuable to practice your accuracy generally the most valuable practice and training is the training you do with the gun you actually use for self defense. Unless you are rich or reload most people can afford to do a lot more practice with the 9mm. If you can't afford to practice as much (or very close to it) with the .45acp then you should consider staying with the 9mm.
Weight? The LDA is heavier (probably significantly so). Are you sure you are comfortable with its weight? Would it affect your carry style, carry location, or even how often you'd carry your main gun?
Familiarity. Which are you more familiar with? In this case, since you've had the 3913 for some time, and you have three of them
, that has the clear advantage here. If you want to use the LDA I would keep using the 3913 for a while and get a few months more practice w/ the LDA first.Manual of arms (related to above). These two are very different and to top it off you occasionally use a snub as well. The LDA has a light enough trigger that, just like a SA, I would never consider using it without the safety. Do you use the safety on the 3913 or do you decock it and use the long DA first trigger pull as your safety (point and shoot)? Either way the transition to the LDA could get you in trouble in a self defense situation. The safeties work in opposite directions so you could find yourself trying to push the safety in the wrong direction to disengage it in a high stress SD situation (even with a lot of practice you still have, what, years of practice with the other system to overcome and the chance of reverting to that under stress is there). If you are used to point and shoot (if you decock and then disengage the safety in the S&W) then you may end up forgetting to disengage the safety in a high stress defensive situation (again, even with a lot of practice with the new system there is the chance of reverting to the old system under stress). Also, the point and shoot option on the S&W is especially valuable since you sometimes switch off to a snub (the same manual of arms is a very valuable characteristic).
Reliability? Since you've had about 500 good rounds out of the LDA but some trouble in the first 200 it is up to you. 500 is pretty good w/out a hiccup. However, compared to what in the S&W, how many rounds w/out a hiccup? I do know the S&W is generally more reliable, but once you have the gun each one is different and your LDA may be great.
Which platform do you prefer? I love 1911s but I also love S&W autos (they have grown on me and I can't wait to get one). Which do you like better? We see which you are more familiar with, but caliber independent would you still be thinking about switching? If yes, train and develop the LDA familiarity and switch (assuming the other criteria I've mentioned point that way). If no, then you may want to stay w/ the 3913.
To me the number one criteria here are (in order): reliability, whether you can afford to practice enough with the .45, which platform you are most used to and keeping as consistent as possible a manual or arms are about equal (both can be addressed w/ more practice though), which you like better, everything else. Given that, and your degree of familiarity with the S&W and its manual of arms, if you really want to switch to .45acp I'd strongly suggest getting a gun closer to what you are already familiar with (S&W or other traditional DA auto, followed by DAO since that would be the least adjustment, and last a SA or LDA type action).
Remeber, we aren't talking .45acp JHPs or 9mm ball, ball in both or .32acp v. 45acp. We are talking about two calibers where there is a difference in power, but not a huge one. When they are relatively close you really need to look at other criteria other than just power (how many other issues do you decide what to buy/use based on only one out of several possible criteria).
OKC .45 ACP
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- Dec 29, 2002
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- 15
Given the fact
that you can shoot both equally well, hit with both equally well, and both are equally reliable, I would choose the .45ACP.
As the Mariner alluded to, the experts overseas have had problems with 9mm doing what it's supposed to do in tight quarters. The .45 has legendary battle-proven stopping power. I'm not saying it's a one shot stop---none of them are. But .45 is well known for its battlefield efficiency and our Delta Force currently uses .45ACP--and they are the ones that know the answer to your question.
Stay safe,
Bob
that you can shoot both equally well, hit with both equally well, and both are equally reliable, I would choose the .45ACP.
As the Mariner alluded to, the experts overseas have had problems with 9mm doing what it's supposed to do in tight quarters. The .45 has legendary battle-proven stopping power. I'm not saying it's a one shot stop---none of them are. But .45 is well known for its battlefield efficiency and our Delta Force currently uses .45ACP--and they are the ones that know the answer to your question.
Stay safe,
Bob
Sean Smith
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- Dec 28, 2002
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- 4,925
I personally wouldn't trust Para-Ordinance "quality." 
Just my opinion.
Just my opinion.
chaim
Member
Apples to oranges.
The military is limited to ball ammo in which case .45acp has a clear power advantage over 9mm. However, 9mm ball does have a big penatration advantage over .45acp ball, and in a military situation where overpenatration isn't a disadvantage and where penatration is sometimes a big plus this gives 9mm an occasional advantage over .45acp. Hence, even in a military situation 9mm v. .45acp isn't clear cut (though I would agree, in a .45 ball v. 9mm ball situation, that I would prefer .45acp).
It is also noteworthy that while Delta uses .45acp (and sometimes the Marines do too) other special operations usually use 9mms- Army Special Forces (aka the Green Berets), Navy Seals, Army Rangers, and Air Force special operations guys use 9mm almost exclusively and Marine special operations forces use both.
In civilian situations though, where good HPs and modern ammo designs are options, both are perfectly good and what the military uses isn't really pertinent. Taking the military experience (limited to ball ammo) and trying to draw a conclusion for civilian defensive choices (where modern defensive ammo is available) is comparing apples and oranges- it is not a valid comparison.
Again, in civilian and police situations where quality modern defensive ammo is available the power difference is small enough that I think the other considerations when choosing a defensive gun should take precedence.
The LDA is not a true da/sa, so if your first shot misfires you can't just pull the trigger again. Also you have no exposed hammer on the LDA.
Sorry, while I like the size of the LDA, I just didn't like the one I handled. Given those two choices ONLY, I'd opt for the SW.
Sorry, while I like the size of the LDA, I just didn't like the one I handled. Given those two choices ONLY, I'd opt for the SW.
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