Help me pick out my first AR

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With in the last day or so, I had a good friend ask me about which AR he should get and the resulting conversation brought some things to the front of my mind.

We have an Academy Sports nearby and they carry Bushmaster and Smith ARs. A local dealer also carries Rock River ARs, so those brands did come up in our conversation and talking about the stuff really put things into perspective for me.

At the conclusion, what it came down to was this. Most of the bigger names make good rifles. Bushmaster, DPMS, RRA, etc. There is no doubt that the odds are in your favor that you could buy one of these and not have any problems and be perfectly happy with them. But, then again, you could spend roughly the same amount of money and get a rifle from Bravo Company. I'm just using BCM because I'm familiar with them, although there are other firms that sell similarly built equipment.

My buddy really wanted to be able to buy locally, because he could have gotten it now. When he asked, "why would I go through the trouble of buying the BCM rather than a rifle from a local dealer," my response was that for the same amount of money, he could get equipment that had a MP test bolt carrier, MP and HP tested bolt and barrel, with a milspec buffer. To me, those are the most important parts of an AR.

The BCM may or may not run better than one of the more commercial brands, but for the same money, you could get a bit more piece of mind knowing that you got milspec stuff that has been tested.
 
I have to agree with Azziza, why on earth would you choose DPMS or RRA when you could have Spikes, or BCM (recently reduced their price on uppers) for the same price, or even less?! $480 gets you a complete Spikes lower, $380 gets a BCM minus bcg and charging handle. No DPMS is not terrible, they just aren't as good as the aforementioned mfrs.
 
+1 to the last two comments.

There's nothing necessarily wrong with DPMS, RRA, Bushmaster etc. I'm sure they work out great for the majority of their customers. But the fact remains they compete primarily on price, and we have reached a point where the price gap vs. some of the upper tier manufacturers is small enough that I think it's very hard to justify the budget brands mentioned. The savings is too small.

The listed price of the RRA in the original post was~$1k. The base BCM carbines are roughly the same price. The Daniel Defense I mentioned earlier is around $900. True, the BCM and DD don't come decked out with a rail and some of the other accessories, but should prove to be excellent starter carbines. Both are superior products compared to RRA, DPMS, etc.

I'd recommend the OP check out m4carbine.net , ar15.com , or similar forums that focus on the AR platform. They have quite a bit of information, as well as occasionally will point you towards a deal.
 
Yeah, who wants air gauged barrels, guaranteed accuracy, tight tolerances and reliability when they can have "milspec" stuff instead. Same reason I buy $600 surplus toilets for my house, milspec is always synonymous with quality.

PS DEA seemed to think Rock River had enough heart and soul to award them contracts for ARs, or are we all just really casual shooters here? The point of any firearm purchase is reliability and accuracy. It's one thing to suggest a true gem of a bargain but to pan DPMS and the other big boys is a waste of breath. For every bad experience there are dozens of positive ones.
 
So Sky, you'd recommend RRA/DPMS/Bushy over a LMT/BCM????




The DEA probally isn't a good source to base your weapon needs on. The DEA is stupid. The war on drugs is over, they lost. Maybe next time they'll actually use thier rifles. (on something other than dogs at the wrong house)

There was a time when the competition community looked towards the military for carbine advice. Now the roles have changed. The skill in comps is insane good, and the .mil looks towards competitiors for advice now. Funny how that table turned, some of the best advice I ever got was from plain old civvy Americans.

The .mil still uses alot of carbine length handgards, LOLz. I do as well, but that's for lightweight KISS builds, not Light/laser equiped carbines.
 
Skyler you really need to do some more checking.
Tighter tolerances between the upper and lower don't mean squat with an AR. It as designed the way it is not to be air tight. And for the same reason an AK is not made super tight.

Air Gagued barrels are not on their normal ARs they are on the Stainless barreled version. Which are ok for that purpose I guess but if I want a really accurate gun I am not going to waste my money on a RRA I am going to get a gun made with a Noveske barrel.

RRA, Sig, and Colt all one part of that contract. The guns made for the DEA are not the same as a RRA Entry Tactical you buy off the shelf. And even then the DEA has not been overly happy with the weapons they received.

There is actually a thread going on over at M4C.net about this right now.
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=60027
 
I shoot what I recommend. Aside from the first 500 rounds of FMJ I used as a source for brass to reload, I've loaded every round since. I've never had a failure of any kind, it shoots touching groups at 100 yards all day long. What is it people want in a carbine?

Would I recommend it over a Lewis? At 1/3 the price, in a heartbeat. I'm sure if I told you I enjoy my Remington 700 and wouldn't care to trade for an Aunschutz you'd call me a fool but name dropping of brands doesn't impress me or make me a better shooter nor does having their name on the same forging.

If there are specific reasons for not buying brand X, do please tell. If you've never owned brand X then STOP whining about it. It's simply not beneficial to say big manufacturers don't care. Rock River is nothing more than a non-descript pole building. I passed it hundreds of times without knowing it was there. (my girlfriend lived in Colona, she's my wife now). If that's not a boutique builder then I'm not sure what qualifies.

All else aside, to the op: what, if any plans do you have for an AR? It might be helpful in making specific recommendations rather than Ford/Chevy arguments. The modern AR has a dizzying array of configurations, some useful, tacticool, worthless and everything in between.
 
If a DPMS really was 1/3 the price of a LMT, or BCM then you MAY have a point. However the realistic price difference is more like 100-150 bucks. With that being the case I could never in good continence recommend a DPMS, Bushy, or RRA to anyone. They cut to many corners and have to shabby of QC.

I am glad yours has worked for you but there are legions of storied from even basic classes of these rifles failing. And while not unheard of, the stories of failed Colt, LMT, BCM, etc guns are much harder to come by even though they are more common in these classes.
 
Let's just cut to the chase Azziza, you distribute BCM and have severed relations with Rock River so now BCM and S&W are the only game in town.

According to your previous posts:
Sig Saur: not worth considering
Rock River: overpriced, not reliable?
Ruger: not synonymous with quality, POS
Oly: pure crap
Del-Ton: junk
YHM: overweight POS
Colt: reliable but not accurate.
I'm not going to bother reading further back than July.

How about coming clean with a list of whose wares you hock so we can cut through your commentary a bit easier?

Stop the trolling and get back to the question at hand. My apologies for the hijack, it isn't very High Road, then again neither is telling tales about the competition for personal gain.
 
Chainsaw, I'm one of the unwashed mass that shoots an out of the box Stag, LH, in 6.8. No problems, everything works as it should, good fit and finish. My advise, save for what you want. You might be surprised at what you can do without, when your saving for something you really want. Besides, it will give you more time to study out just what it is you truly want.
Good luck!
Robby
PS, You might want to check out Brownell's tutorial on building these gun's. It doesn't take much to be an AR gunsmith the variety, and availability of parts is staggering, kind of like a Smorgasbord to a hungry man.
 
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Skylerbone don't talk about things you have no knowledge of. I no longer work in the firearms industry. In fact I Haven't for years. When I did, I worked at a shop in the wholesale section. We sold Rock River, DPMS, Bushmaster, Colt, and LMT as well as YHM accessories. My opinions on differing brands comes from owning (And using) them, feedback from people I sold them to, and listening to people who know a hell of a lot more than I do.

So please continue with your ad hominem attacks and avoid the actual subject at hand.

I have been trying to answer the question at hand by helping the OP pick a rifle that will serve him well for years.

And while I shouldn't let me address the rest of your post

Sig Saur: not worth considering - They have gone down hill since '06. To much for what you get.
Rock River: overpriced, not reliable? - Cost as much as much better brands. No way to argue that.
Ruger: not synonymous with quality, POS. - How many recalls have they had?
Oly: pure crap - Well yeah. Would anyone really say otherwise?
Del-Ton: junk - Pretty much
YHM: overweight POS - POS may be a bit strong but their rails are heavy as hell.
Colt: reliable but not accurate. - Hmm not sure the reference here. Colt is not know for precision rifles. But they will do quite well at any range I can shoot at. And they are very reliable.


Not really sure what your point is now that I look at it. /shrug
 
Azizza, read your past threads. You were recommending Rock River and DPMS in the same sentence two years ago. You haven't worked in the firearms industry for years but in good conscience you recommended them then?

I attempted to answer the op's question too (that's the correct usage of "too" in this context) but all you seem to do in any response is rip everything you don't personally like. So just as you preferred 1:9 twist rates in Feb. of last year and didn't care about milspec or commercial and you owned a Bushmaster that was your favorite, I am of the opinion that your suggestions aren't the only ones the op ought to listen to (again, the correct use of "to" in context).
If you see this as an ad hominem attack then consider not changing your mind every six months without any supporting evidence about every manufacturer.

We've got some common ground here man, I just don't dig on your flush every other suggestion down the toilet style. I think that is a great disservice to the op and what I didn't care for. I can tell you've got experience, I do too but I don't know everything about every model and knock on wood no weapon of mine has ever failed me.

My apologies to all, I'll bow out now.
 
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Well I certainly don't work in the firearms industry, I am a cop. When I first got into Ar's I did a little research on the net. I saw lots of debate and I wound up believing that "as good as" WAS, primarily because I found a great deal on one of the "as good as" and I wanted to believe it. Turns out, while it was a pretty good plinker, and pretty accurate, it had reliability problems. Traded it for another "good as" and my reliability problems got even worse.

To the OP, you will find that pretty much everyone on the internet has an opinion. The problem is, at first it is hard to tell who shoots a few rounds a year and who shoots thousands, or to tell who has a broad base of experience and who doesn't. It seems that most guys on the internet spend more time behind their keyboards than their guns.

It is easy to say that "I have brand XXX and it has been 100% reliable". Well that is great. How many rounds has that been over? 30, 300, 3000? I always get a kick out of people that say they have only had time to "run a few magazines through it" and then talk about how reliable it is. Well yeah, it would have to be a real POS to conk out that fast. Even if you happen to get a rifle and run 10,000 rounds through it with good success, that is one rifle out of tens or hundreds of thousands made by that brand. Not a good base of experience.

I started having a lot better luck with AR's when I started listening to some of the guys who were basing their opinions on a LOT more experience than what I saw from most of the opinionated internet posters. One of these people was Pat Rogers, who sees thousands and thousands of AR's come through his courses every year. He is seeing many representatives of each brand being used hard, not just for occasional plinking at the range. It will take some time to get through, but reading this one thread can be an education by itself with regard to AR-15's. http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=360169&page=1

These days we are very fortunate to have several companies manufacturing high quality AR-15's for not much if any more than some of the older names. BCM, LMT, Daniel Defense, Spikes all produce carbines that cut no corners in striving for ultimate reliability. Notice I did not say accuracy. Although these brands can turn out some rifles capable of fantastic accuracy, the specs they are built to are made up for maximum reliability, especially under hard use. Many times we say "best" when we mean "most reliable", and sometimes there is a difference. For a fighting gun reliability has to be number one, but if you are competing to try to produce the smallest groups possible from a bench or on a range, you are probably worried more about accuracy since you aren't staking your life on what you are shooting.

You have to ask yourself what you want out of the rifle. Every brand has produced duds. Every brand has produced samples that were extremely accurate and every brand has produced samples that were extremely reliable. By and large, certain brands like BCM, LMT, DD, and Spikes will produce more rugged and reliable rifles than brands like Bushmaster, RRA, DPMS, etc... If you are looking for extreme accuracy then that RRA NM with a nice trigger and stainless barrel will be a much better value for you than a BCM. A DPMS or Bushmaster varminter would also probably be better buys. If you really value reliability and ruggedness though, and you are on a budget, then there is no reason not to buy a BCM, LMT, DD, or Spikes.

Of course, all of us want a rifle that is BOTH reliable and accurate. Personal experience owning a couple dozen AR's, and using others in classes issued by my dept, as well as listening to those with far more knowledge and experience than I, has convinced me that you get more accuracy from the Tier 1 guns than you get reliability from the others.

Some, with all the fanboy and internet nonsense aside there remain a few facts. The FACT is that a RRA NM will usually be more accurate than a BCM because it is built to be. A better trigger, stainless barrel, and tighter tolerances make it indisputable. The FACT is that a BCM will usually be more reliable than a RRA because it is built to be. MPI'd and Shot Peened Bolt, Shrouded Carrier, properly staked keys, etc... make it indisputable.
 
Daniel Defense or the M&P are my recommendations. I would be happy with either, but the DD is a special gun...pick up a DDM4 sometime and you'll know what I mean.

As to the "low grade guns", take that with a grain of salt. DPMS, Bushmaster and RRA far outsell all the other brands combined. Scores of LE personnel are armed with these brands and have found them perfectly adequate for life and death needs. The drawback is that the more of any one product that is sold greatly increases the sample size for failure and the louder the cries when something does fail. These guns are not mil-spec, but that doesn't mean they are bad arms and you may find your DPMS is just as rock solid as the Colt owner's pony down the street. Additionally, just because the chart says a certain manufacturer meets or doesn't meet mil-spec in a certain area, doesn't necessarily make it so. For example, I know of Bushmaster rifles that do in fact have M4 feed ramps, and very nicely parkerized ones at that!

Bottom line, buy a rifle that you can afford and that is configured with the end in mind, or buy a starter platform gun for building off of. The brand isn't as important as some might indicate, especially with the fact that a $160 BCG upgrade will bring most guns into maximum reliability. Throw in a buffer and spring, and for $225 you turned that $700 carbine into a gun every bit as reliable as a Colt.
 
Rock River, Stag, Dpms, Del-ton there are no others worth looking at unless you a. have a lot of money b. build your own
 
Of course, all of us want a rifle that is BOTH reliable and accurate. Personal experience owning a couple dozen AR's, and using others in classes issued by my dept, as well as listening to those with far more knowledge and experience than I, has convinced me that you get more accuracy from the Tier 1 guns than you get reliability from the others.
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An interesting thought, and the primary reason why top tier AR owners seldom discuss accuracy. It is possible to have accuracy and mil-spec reliability, but it raises the price significantly. White Oak and Noveske are the way to go, with Daniel Defense just behind them. The DD is the only gun that meets those criteria at a reasonable price differential over a tier 1 gun, IMO. Or, you could buy a tier one and drop in a BCM or DD BCG and get both for a cheaper price.

The world of the AR is far less clear cut than some posters might try to make it out to be.....
 
Snakeman what makes you think that?

For instance you mentioned RRA. Well an Entry Tactical will run you around 990 in the current market. A Daniel Defense M4 will run you the exact same. And the Daniel Defense is superior in every way. A BCM would cost even less than either of those and be equal to the DD and superior to the RRA. Del-TonStag and DPMS would be a bit cheaper but not by much and would not be near as good a rifle either.
 
$700 carbine into a gun every bit as reliable as a Colt.
Click to expand...

if you're lucky enough to have your chamber cut correctly. and your gas block doesn't come loose when it gets warm. and you'll want to be a bit more gentle with your extruded charging handle... etc...

btw, as far as i know, white oak doesn't make anything 'mil-spec'. and while noveske may make some things that are mil spec, that's not what they're known for.
 
Noveske Barrels are not Milspec although they do Exceed the spec. They actually use a heavier duty steel, etc. But no they are not Mil Spec.

People often get caught up in Mil spec. But the TDP is important for one thing. It shows a MINIMUM specification that a part must meet. If you can do better great. If you can't even meet that minimum then you need to do better.
 
if you're lucky enough to have your chamber cut correctly. and your gas block doesn't come loose when it gets warm. and you'll want to be a bit more gentle with your extruded charging handle... etc...
Click to expand...

Not to be too contradictory here, but I have yet to see the "incorrect" chamber malady that so many claim to see in tier one rifles. While I am sure it happens, it is WAY overblown on internet forums like these, just like failures with Colts and other "top tier" rifles are understated. I also fail to see the gas block issue when the FSB is pinned correctly. What are the failure rates here? 1% of all product sold? I would bet even the mighty Colt has at least that number of anomalies. Your dealing in generalizations and internet anecdotes as if they were quantitative evidence.

btw, as far as i know, white oak doesn't make anything 'mil-spec'. and while noveske may make some things that are mil spec, that's not what they're known for.
Click to expand...

If you re-read my post, I didn't say they were mil-spec, I said they provide mil-spec reliability and while providing accuracy. I think that is a fair statement based on failure rates of said guns going through the much ballyhooed torture test of the "carbine course".
 
I'm thinking of getting an AR also.

Do I get a bonus for reviving this thread?

I'm thinking about getting a first AR myself and I've been trying to gain some knowledge by reading threads on here, youtube videos, etc. (Background on me: Own 3 pistols, a Garand & a Ruger M77 mk2 7mm rem mag. I've previously owned a PTR-91 & mosin-nagant. Very mechanically inclined mechanical engineer. Looking to spend 1000-1200 total on this.)

What I've learned so far:

Bravocompany-usa (BCM) is pretty good. I've seen the suggestions to buy an upper from them and build my own lower, which may be a viable option, however I find myself getting easily overwhelmed by the sheer magnitude of parts/kits for the AR & I'm a very mechanically inclined engineer.

How is Del-ton? I've seen some of their rifles for surprisingly cheap prices and I'm not sure if that would be a good buy or not.

Rock River Arms. Seems like most people on thehighroad have a decent opinion of them, but I've seen some other reviews on diff't websites that didn't think so highly of RRA. Mostly they were being picky about M4 feed ramps and bolt staking. Since I don't have much experience with AR's I'm thinking of just buying a complete rifle like an RRA Operator2 that's on sale right now: http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=464 Bonus: There are a couple RRA dealers near me.

From what I've seen it's very easy to spend $800-$1000 on an upper alone so I figure I might as well just purchase a complete rifle. Any feedback/advice about this RRA rifle? The other 2 models on sale have the half round/half railed forend and look kinda confused IMO.

Lastly, I've been looking at CMMG and all their rifles/uppers come with full auto bolt carriers. The fire control group controls semi/full auto fire right? I see full auto bolt carrier and it makes me think it's a full auto weapon and thus Class 2 / LE / military only.

Does anyone know of some AR oriented shooting clubs around St. Louis? I'd be interested in attending one of their meetings to educate myself and maybe handle a few different weapons before I invest in one of my own.

I know you guys will ask, so: I have a Springfield operator .45 that I plan on using for home defense. I'm thinking of using this for shooting / home defense. If I can find a shooting club around me I may join and shoot with them for fun.

Update: Basically I'm thinking of either
a) The RRA Operator
b) BCM/Stag complete upper and building up a stripped POF lower.
 
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Krusty, you can order any lower you want fully assembled, from just about any gun store. I'd order a complete LMT with the SOPmod. That's one of my favorite built lowers

It really deosn't matter what lower you get, the important stuff is in the upper. Rainier arms would probally be more than happy to build whatever you want in a lower. Just more research to know what you want.

I'd recommend a Noveske lower, Stag ambi safety, Magpul Moe Grip, and Magpul ACS stock with a H, or H2 buffer.

BCM uppers are really the way to go right now. Way beyond milspec, barely any more expensive than regular AR's. Auto parts are fine in uppers. An SA and FA upper can be the same. Only the trigger group allows the AR to shoot auto. You don't have to worry about that. You can't buy an FA AR on accident. LOLz.

One of my favorite uppers:
http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-...iver-LaRue-Tactical-p/bcm-urg-mid-14 lt12.htm
 
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I have stumbled into some info regarding who produces (read "manufacturers") most if not all lowers currently available (speaking about 223/556 AR15's). I will attempt to cut and paste this info here.

Lewis Machine & Tool
• LMT
• Lauer
• DS Arms
• PWA
• Eagle
• Armalite
• Knights Armament
• Barrett

Continental Machine Tool
• Stag
• Rock River Arms
• High Standard
• Noveske
• Century (New)
• Global Tactical
• CLE
• S&W
• MGI
• Wilson Tactical
• Grenadier Precision
• Colt

LAR Manufacturing
• LAR
• Bushmaster
• Ameetec
• DPMS
• CMMG
• Double Star
• Fulton Armory
• Spike's Tactical

JVP
• Double Star
• LRB
• Charles Daly

Mega Machine Shop
• Mega
• GSE
• Dalphon
• POF
• Alexander Arms

Olympic
• Olympic
• SGW
• Tromix
• Palmetto
• Dalphon
• Frankford
• Century (Old)

Sun Devil
• Sun Devil forged billet receivers

Superior
• Superior Arms
• Lauer (New)

Aero Precision
• Aero Precision

Some people think that their favorite company actually produces their rifle or parts and while this is partially true, I believe (I could be wrong too :rolleyes: ) that most sub-out their milling duties for their lowers to manufacturing companies as the milling, forging and anodizing processes require some room, equipment and expertise to maintain the tolerances and...er...quality.

I have compared my Del-Ton lower (still don't know if "they" make them or if not who does) to a S&W, Spikes, Armalite and BCM and after measuring the clearances and looking at the machining, they appear to be virtually identical.

I think where the real quality factors come into play is with the CBG, upper assembly and barrel. This is where BCM, Spikes, LMT and a few others really have their collective "stuff" together.

I haven't been able to totally verify the list above but it stands to reason that these manufacturers are better equipped to provide quality parts and put whatever names on them depending on the order for the day/week/month.

JMHO though...:D
 
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Sorry for the long post above.

I am looking at building the upper for myself with the following components:

Upper - Spikes

Bolt - Young Mfg. (there is that pesky "MFR" again...:D)

Charging Handle - Vltor (or others if they feel better)

Gas Block - Young Mfr. (low profile, railed)

Gas Tube - Armalite

Handguards - Young Mfg. or Daniel Defense or sim.

Barrel - Lothar Walther (with probably a Wylde chamber)

Muzzle Brake - Troy "Medieval", maybe others as I would like a FS+MB with impact tip

Sights - unsure ATM

Optics - when the ducats are available as Aimpoint and others are $$$$

Trigger - not sure, Timney looks good but I have heard about reliability issues and need more real world info.


Let me know what you think about this "group of parts" as I am eager to learn
 
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