help with .223 reloads

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tggdeer

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I have been reloading for about a year now. 308,,3006,,40 s&w,,9mm,,35 rem. . Have not had any problems until now. Just started .223 for a rock river ar 15. I have lee .223 dies, Rcbs RC press. problem,,,,, my first ten rounds are getting in the chamber. I am not firing these, just running them through by hand.Seller at gun show said these were military cases. On the case is L C 7 8 . The bullets that I have came from the gun show in zip lock bags, don't know the brand name, but they are 55 grn. FMJ.. According to harnady info. the OAL should be 2.200, but when I seat to the cannelure 2.255 is the deepest I can go.I thought the bullet was too long and hanging up in the chamber, so I ran a few sized cases (empty) through and still hung up. the case at it's widest point should be .376 or less. Mine is .373, so should work. But it does not. I sized the brass a second time and got it down to.372-.371 which is what my new rem. ammo measures and they work now.
My lyman 49 manual says.376, but that will not fit.All my brass is trimmed to 1.751.
Questions are
1-Has anyone experienced this problem with military brass
2-should I be using military brass
3-Does military brass create more pressure due to thicker case walls,,If so, do I need stay away from any max loads.
4-Do I need to seat the bullet to the cannelure, or be more concerned with the OAL.
5-Is it normal to have to size twice
6-My AR is chambered for 556 so data for 223 is ok right
 
Be sure to set your sizing die down a 1/4 turn past shellholder contact, LC brass is all I use and it holds up well. 2.260" is max oal, but you can go shorter. I run my 60gr Sierra Varminters to 2.250" I don't run max loads since I've always seen the best accuracy closer to mid level loads, I like 24gr H335, with the above stated bullet. Run of the mill 55gr FMJ bullets will likely shoot poorly, I've since went with the Sierras. I've had properly sized rounds stick in my RRA Predator Pursuit, while hand cycling, but all have shot fine without a hitch.

Good luck, and load save!:)
 
I'll just betcha that your cases are too long or the shoulders need to be pushed back. Full length resize them and then measure them they should be between 2.150"- 2.160". A little shorter is ok 2.140". longer is a bad thing.

1- biggest problem is the crimped primer holes.

2- not a reason in the world not to.

3- that is a good question since some mil brass has thinner walls. Start your loads low and work up. Max loads sometimes aren't what you need, or want.

4-you can seat the bullet any where you want as long as it fits in the chamber and or the magazine. And there is enough neck tension to hold the bullet in place during recoil.

5- No it's not normal. Standard Theory is to Full length size each time for semi's and neck size for bolts after the first time the brass has been fired in the bolt gun. BUT you still have to full length size your "new" brass before you shoot it for the first time.

6- yep!
 
1-No. People shoot a ton of LC brass. Good stuff. You will need to remove the crimp from the primer pocket, and trim to length after sizing like all .223 brass.
2-Yes
3-Some military brass is lighter, and some heavier than commercial brass.
4-Seat to the cannelure and forget about it.
5-No
6-Yes
 
Military brass is 5.56. I bet your AR is chambered for .223 only. You can shoot 223 in a 5.56 chamber, but not 5.56 in a 223 chamber.
 
Military brass is 5.56. I bet your AR is chambered for .223 only.
Click to expand...

The Rock River Arms is supposed to shoot either 223 or 5.56 ammo.

I shoot LC brass in my RRA. After full length resizing and primer pocket prep, I trim my brass to .010" shorter than the case length shown in the books. Then seat the bullet by desired OAL, not the position of the cannelure. Cannelure means nothing unless you intend to do a military style crimp, which is not needed for civilian shooting and would be highly ill advised due to pressure concerns. This since the loads in your reloading manual are for un-crimped civilian ammo.

The dimensions in the manual are the SAAMI maximum lengths. These are not numbers to aim for, these are numbers not to exceed. So you can (and should) go slightly shorter on case length and OAL.

Hope this helps!
 
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Thanks for all the info.. My RRA AR is 556. Will try suggestions on some reloads, maybe shoot Saturday, and post results. Again, thanks to everyone. I know there is no substitution for reloading manuals, but THR has been one of the best tools that I have.
 
Once it has been fired, all 5.56 ammo becomes .223 cases. The physical outside dimmensions of .223 vs 5.56 are the same +/- . The difference is the powder charge and primer.
 
I have weighted lots of LC cases and I have found them to actually be lighter (thinner) than winchester commercial cases I have?? Probably just a thinner run but still they were thinner (lighter). Isn't the 5.56x45 just our nod to the European NATO countries using the same caliber (matching their metric scale and making everything uniform as the military has a tendency to do)...I was always under the impression that 5.56x45 is the chamber dimension not the case dimensions? So that would mean that .223 remington and the 5.56x45 are the same size? I'm sure someone will correct me forthwith but I welcome enlightenment.

5.56 chambers are cut with longer throats and leads to compensate for grime in the chamber and the higher pressures tha 5.56 is loaded too. The 223 chamber is cut to tighter tolerances for accuracy purposes. The reason you souldn't shoot 5.56 in a 223 chamber is due to the higher presures that it is loaded too and not the brass thickness, wieght, or dimensions. They are all basically the same its the chamber you fire the round in that makes the difference. Thats why there is no such thing (that I ever saw) as a 5.56x45 die...the 223 is the same.
 
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5.56 brass is thicker than 223 brass, and it will not become a 223 case when you fire it, despite the fact that the external dimensions are the same.
Click to expand...
Hmmmm?
As a matter of fact, it will.

Nobody, and I mean nobody sells 5.56 NATO specific loading dies.
They only sell .223 dies.

And as BsChoy noted, there is no set-in-stone rule that 5.56 brass is thicker then .223 brass.

I have a ton of LC 68 brass that is both thinner and lighter then 2,000 commercial Remington .223 cases I bought a couple of years ago to prove it.

Thinner & lighter translates to my 5.56 brass having slightly more case capacity then my commercial .223 brass.

When reloading, it makes no difference whatsoever if the brass started out as 5.56 or .223, as you will work up a safe load for it anyway.

The OP's problem is that his 5.56 cases will not chamber after sizing.
All that means is he hasen't got his .223 sizing die adjusted properly.

rc
 
The LC brass I have weighed was heavier than commercial brass.

If it is in fact thinner, then there should be more case capacity. Does the rule of downloading military brass slightly compared to commercial still apply? or is that an old wives tale?
 
It's an old wives tail that you should probably follow.
I concure that most 5.56 brass is heavier, and will have less internal volumn.

But the point I was trying to make was, that it is not always true.

If in doubt, weigh the brass after trimming and removing the primer crimp.

If it is heavier then the commercial .223 brass you compare the weight to, it is safe to assume it has less capacity.

But in any event, you always should start 10% below max when working up a load with different components then those listed in the load data.

So, whether 5.56 has less capacity then .223 is a moot point anyway if you work up your load with it.

There is a great weight comparison here about 1/5 way down under
Brass--New and Once-Fired.
http://www.6mmbr.com/223Rem.html

rc
 
assuming the OP has set his dies up right. You might want to try small base dies. I have loaded for 2 different AR's both the same make and model. one wouldn't chamber unless you used small base dies. the other would eat everything you put in the mag.
 
I got a prob.with about every 10 rds. 2 or 3 of them get the bullet jammed into the case.
Powder all over:fire:
I follow the Hornady man.
1.75 trimmed
2.23 OAL
Full size
It sounds like I need to adjust my dye.
But should I tighten the crimp??
 
I wouldn't roll crimp unless you have a magazine tube gun or a revolver. If you want SHTF ammo, then crimp on the cannelure. Else for accuracy, adjust OAL for best performance. Some loaders go with a standard charge, then use OAL extensively for tuning. I think Mr Lee uses crimp as a tuning aid for improving accuracy, and there are times it may help.

I like ball and short cut powders for .223. Benchrest has been great, better than R10x, but I like Varget and R15 as well. AA2230 has been great, but the expelled brass seems hotter than with other powders.

Although, Varget and R15 are not cut short. I think their lengths are between Benchmark and IMR 4350.

I've loaded from 36gr Barnes VG to 75gr Hornady BTHP Match, and not had issues with Lee dies or Redding Match dies, except when I tried to use the Lee collet (neck only). Those loads wouldn't chamber and were a pain to extract.

SAAMI is 60,000 CUP for 5.56 ammo and 50,000 for .223 Remington.

I use Remington brass as it has been most common in once firect. But also have a lot of LC. They shoot great. Haven't done a side by side comparison yet. I never thought the LC brass would be as good, since the primer pockets are crimped, but the accuracy has been great. I've avoiding Lapua since it is for a AR.

Some loaded resize twice. I do. If accuracy improves, then go for it. If the neck tension is not holding the bullet, then need to cook the necks with a torch. Or using a smaller ID bushing in bushing die.
 
Several points here. First of all, your chambering problem is caused from the cases not being sized properly. As jenrob pointed out, you may want to use a small base resizing die. This would eliminate the problem, and would negate the need for any case length gauge. I use the RCBS Small Base Die Set #11103. The procedure is as follows: Screw the sizer die into the press until the die touches the shell holder when the shell holder is broght up to the top of the press stroke. Be sure all the play is removed from the press leverage system. To do this, adjust the die as above, then lower the shell holder and set the die 1/8 to 1/4 turn FURTHER DOWN, so that the press cams over center. Set the large lock nut and you're ready to size. This is full, full length sizing. It don't get no better than this. That's what you want for your Rock River.
Also, there is no difference between Lake City brass and any other commercial brass. The outside dimensions are identical. The INSIDE will vary the same as any brass, commercial or otherwise. Even lots of the same make can vary in thickness, thus why we are taught to reduce loads and work up again if we change any component, or even lots. Military LOADS are different because of the LOAD. But once they are fired, AND YOU RELOAD THEM, they are the same animal as any other .223 round that you load.
Your Rock River will handle both with no problem.
 
I disagree that a small base die would solve the problem, or that one is needed.

First, we don't know what the problem is yet, so a Sm. base die would not solve it.

If it's a matter of an improperly adjusted sizing die, or or improperly adjusted crimping die, an improperly adjusted sm base die wouldn't solve the problem either.

Anyway, I have used nothing but a standard die set to reload GI brass .223/5.56 for a number of different AR-15's, mini-14's and bolt-actions since 1970.

I have yet to own or need a small base sizing die for anything.

rc
 
By his own admission, he indicates that when he moved his die down, he reduced his dimensions just above the head. That indicates to me that they are not sized enough.
By using a small base die, he CANNOT size any more than this, and would eliminate insufficient sizing as a source of his problem.
Yes, you can use standard dies and get good results. I'm not implying that you can't. My point is that in an auto loading rifle, consistent loading is a top priority. Accuracy is secondary. It it don't load, it don't shoot.
 
I have used both small base and standard .223 dies for my Varminter. I have not noticed a difference between the two in the chambering of rounds. Either seems to work just fine when adjusted properly. COAL is 2.260"

Historian
 
,,,,, my first ten rounds are getting in the chamber. I am not firing these, just running them through by hand.

Just thought of another possibility. I wonder if he is letting the bolt slam shut, or is he "riding the charging handle" back with the bolt carrier? If so, he may be robbing the carrier of the energy it needs to fully chamber the rounds. Just another thought.
 
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