moxie
Member
Help!! Anyone have some good loads for .357 Mag, 158 gr. hard cast SWC, using Unique?
Help with .357 mag loads.
- Thread starter moxie
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P95Carry
Moderator Emeritus
My old Hercules load book gives a load for Unique of 8.5 grns .. giving about 1385 fps ..... not a hot load but useable. This in fact for lead RN 158.
This does however sound a tad heavy a load when compared with the Lee book ... 6.1 to 6.8 grn in that case .. and an MV just below 1300 fps.
Best to work up a load IMO .... maybe kick off at 6.5 grns.
Lyman book #47 doesn't cover this powder.
This does however sound a tad heavy a load when compared with the Lee book ... 6.1 to 6.8 grn in that case .. and an MV just below 1300 fps.
Best to work up a load IMO .... maybe kick off at 6.5 grns.
Lyman book #47 doesn't cover this powder.
Shooter973
Member
357 loads
I've used 7 gr of Unique under a cast slug of 150-158gr for years as my standard shooting load. Nice shooting load and plenty of power, more oomph than a +p 38 but not a red line 357 load. Works well on bowling pins and every other type of shooting. Even as a good hunting load. This load also shoots to the fixed sights on my 3" Ruger GP100 and I've got most of my other 357s sighted for this load. Plus you get 1000 rounds out of a pound of Unique, so its cheap to.
I've used 7 gr of Unique under a cast slug of 150-158gr for years as my standard shooting load. Nice shooting load and plenty of power, more oomph than a +p 38 but not a red line 357 load. Works well on bowling pins and every other type of shooting. Even as a good hunting load. This load also shoots to the fixed sights on my 3" Ruger GP100 and I've got most of my other 357s sighted for this load. Plus you get 1000 rounds out of a pound of Unique, so its cheap to.
GooseGestapo
Member
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2003
- Messages
- 6,153
My favorite load for the .357 is the 6.8gr with a Lee 150gr GC-HP cast bullet. This load chrono's at 1,385 from my Ruger Secuity-6 with 4" bbl. The reason for the difference in weight listing is that over the years, the burning speed of Unique has been increased to make it cleaner burning. The same thing has occured with Alliant 2400 too, as the formulations have changed slightly. However, I have shot a lot of 158 SWC over 6.0gr of Unique and Hod. Universal Clays, and find it to be a good general purpose load. Realize too, that the factory standard velocity for the 158gr bullets is about 1,280fps to put these loads in proper perspective. The above cast HP-GC bullet will do anything I need a .357 handgun to do and accuracy is equal to or better than anything I can buy factory loaded. (Approx 2"@25yd with this gun).
Don't believe some of the velocities (or charge weights!)from that old manual. Get a recent manual and still take the velocities as what they found that day, with that test barrel, with that lot of powder, under the prevailing conditions in their test lab, that day.
Don't believe some of the velocities (or charge weights!)from that old manual. Get a recent manual and still take the velocities as what they found that day, with that test barrel, with that lot of powder, under the prevailing conditions in their test lab, that day.
Johnny Guest
Moderator In Memoriam
* * *APPLAUSE * * * *
There's some VERY good advice in the above posts.
GooseGestapo's comment about change in formulation of Unique is right on point. Another aspect is that a lot ot the "Classic" old loads were espoused by people, and some component manufacturers, who had ZERO pressure testing gear when tho older manuals were published. Modern instrumentation makes this gear and advanced data more universally available, and with it, somewhat saner loads.
A recent manual is an absolute MUST! Most of the reduced load data nowadays is NOT a result of attorney nervousness. Using old data is very risky.
P95Carry, well might you be uneasy about the 8.5 gr load from the old book! I recall that 30 years ago, I decided on my own that 8.0 with a JSP was too durn hot for a M19 S&W. the pressure curve of Unique is a bit abrupt for such heavy loads. Better to seek higher velocities with the slower-burning powders, if you need TOP END performance.
Shooter973 beat me to it with my own favorite Unique/cast bullet load in .357. I don't own a .357 with a barrel longer than four inches, but the 7.0 gr of Unique is a joy to shoot with my old 165 LSWC bullets. Plenty of penetration for medium game hunting, flat-enough trajectory for medium-long range plinking, and plenty of recoil, to remind yourself that this is a major caliber. If I need much more storm-and-thunder, I have a couple of very good loads with 2400 powder, and I have barely begun to explore H110 and W296.
Elder Son and I went out last weekend and had a GRAND time working out with the .36 calibers. Most was with .38 SPL cast bullet loads and 115 gr FMJ 9mms, but had fun with mag handloads in S&W K and N frame and a Colt .357 as well. ESon commented that my Hdy 158 XTP load with * *mumble * * grains of 2400 was almost TOO hot in the model 19, but the 7U/LSWC load was nice in all the mags.
We both carry .45s to work, but last Saturday was a good reminder that there was a time when a man with a .357 (or even a paltry .38) on his hip was considered pretty well armed.
Best,
Johnny
There's some VERY good advice in the above posts.
GooseGestapo's comment about change in formulation of Unique is right on point. Another aspect is that a lot ot the "Classic" old loads were espoused by people, and some component manufacturers, who had ZERO pressure testing gear when tho older manuals were published. Modern instrumentation makes this gear and advanced data more universally available, and with it, somewhat saner loads.
A recent manual is an absolute MUST! Most of the reduced load data nowadays is NOT a result of attorney nervousness. Using old data is very risky.
P95Carry, well might you be uneasy about the 8.5 gr load from the old book! I recall that 30 years ago, I decided on my own that 8.0 with a JSP was too durn hot for a M19 S&W. the pressure curve of Unique is a bit abrupt for such heavy loads. Better to seek higher velocities with the slower-burning powders, if you need TOP END performance.
Shooter973 beat me to it with my own favorite Unique/cast bullet load in .357. I don't own a .357 with a barrel longer than four inches, but the 7.0 gr of Unique is a joy to shoot with my old 165 LSWC bullets. Plenty of penetration for medium game hunting, flat-enough trajectory for medium-long range plinking, and plenty of recoil, to remind yourself that this is a major caliber. If I need much more storm-and-thunder, I have a couple of very good loads with 2400 powder, and I have barely begun to explore H110 and W296.
Elder Son and I went out last weekend and had a GRAND time working out with the .36 calibers. Most was with .38 SPL cast bullet loads and 115 gr FMJ 9mms, but had fun with mag handloads in S&W K and N frame and a Colt .357 as well. ESon commented that my Hdy 158 XTP load with * *mumble * * grains of 2400 was almost TOO hot in the model 19, but the 7U/LSWC load was nice in all the mags.
We both carry .45s to work, but last Saturday was a good reminder that there was a time when a man with a .357 (or even a paltry .38) on his hip was considered pretty well armed.
Best,
Johnny
bpisler
Member
I've used unique for years with a 158 lswc,5.7gr in a smith M-60 (357) not a 38 spl model.
6.5gr in my 65-3 and as high as 8.3gr in my M-28.All of these loads proved to be accurate on paper and it's not hard on the hands.
6.5gr in my 65-3 and as high as 8.3gr in my M-28.All of these loads proved to be accurate on paper and it's not hard on the hands.
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Johnny Guest
Moderator In Memoriam
bpisler - - -
Re your, "158 lswc,5.7gr in a smith M-60. . . " Is your M60 chambered for .357? If you're putting this into .38 Spl cases, it is WAY up there in pressures. I don't have references at hand, but I believe this may be well above published specs for .38 Spl. I personally have stopped putting really heavy loads in .38 cases, for fear one might inadvertently find its way into one of my beloved lightweight pieces.
If you're loading it in .357 cases, excuse my comments. I realize this thread deals with .357 loads, so maybe I'm just being a bit nervous . . .
Best,
Johnny
Re your, "158 lswc,5.7gr in a smith M-60. . . " Is your M60 chambered for .357? If you're putting this into .38 Spl cases, it is WAY up there in pressures. I don't have references at hand, but I believe this may be well above published specs for .38 Spl. I personally have stopped putting really heavy loads in .38 cases, for fear one might inadvertently find its way into one of my beloved lightweight pieces.
If you're loading it in .357 cases, excuse my comments. I realize this thread deals with .357 loads, so maybe I'm just being a bit nervous . . .
Best,
Johnny
moxie
Member
Thanks to all. Good advice.
Paul "Fitz" Jones
Moderator - Emeritus
.357 Mag rifle
In walking around my high altitude ranch in Northern California my favorite weapon is an 1892 Winchester I converted to .357 Mag. I have nailed dozens of coyotes with it.
I worked up some loads for it with 125 grain hollow point bullets for 2,000 fps and used a wide tip marking pen to paint the heads and lower part of the cases black.
I call them my "Black Bottom Loads" marked so that they will not be used in any revolver by my family. I won't mention the charge.
The pistol I carry is my Colt Gold Cup with 230 gr. Round noses
I have met a few bears and they left me alone so I did the same.
John Paul
In walking around my high altitude ranch in Northern California my favorite weapon is an 1892 Winchester I converted to .357 Mag. I have nailed dozens of coyotes with it.
I worked up some loads for it with 125 grain hollow point bullets for 2,000 fps and used a wide tip marking pen to paint the heads and lower part of the cases black.
I call them my "Black Bottom Loads" marked so that they will not be used in any revolver by my family. I won't mention the charge.
The pistol I carry is my Colt Gold Cup with 230 gr. Round noses
I have met a few bears and they left me alone so I did the same.
John Paul
Several years ago, I dug up a batch of 158 grain cast hollow points loaded in .38 special cases over 5.5 grains of unique. These were about 20 years old. I then loaded up a batch with the unique that was current in the late 90s. the old loads were actually going a few feet per second faster than the new.
I recall a time in the late 60s when the unique formula changed and people were talking about the "new unique" the point being to stop loading 10 grains under lightweight 38 bullets - a practice that would no doubt have been unwise in the extreme even when unique was invented in the 1890s.
The 5.7 Grain charge was a popular police load in the early '60s especially combined with the lyman 3258429hp. They used it with no desaster in k and j frames. Load probably came from PO Ackley or one of the handbooks.
More recently, the Hornady books would list 6 grains as max for 158 grain lead 39 specials. These do mid 1000s and will make the lyman hp open up. I tried the charge in .357 gp 100 with the hornady swaged lead hps and accuracy was not great. I dropped the charge to 5.5 unique, accuracy improved and the bullets were still mushrooming in a classic manner in the mid 900 fps range.
I recall a time in the late 60s when the unique formula changed and people were talking about the "new unique" the point being to stop loading 10 grains under lightweight 38 bullets - a practice that would no doubt have been unwise in the extreme even when unique was invented in the 1890s.
The 5.7 Grain charge was a popular police load in the early '60s especially combined with the lyman 3258429hp. They used it with no desaster in k and j frames. Load probably came from PO Ackley or one of the handbooks.
More recently, the Hornady books would list 6 grains as max for 158 grain lead 39 specials. These do mid 1000s and will make the lyman hp open up. I tried the charge in .357 gp 100 with the hornady swaged lead hps and accuracy was not great. I dropped the charge to 5.5 unique, accuracy improved and the bullets were still mushrooming in a classic manner in the mid 900 fps range.
bpisler
Member
Johnny guest
I'am bad,i should have said it's a 60-15 in 357.Thanks for the heads up on that
I'am bad,i should have said it's a 60-15 in 357.Thanks for the heads up on that
winwun
Member
Paul, I thought I was the only soul with a 92 in .357. The rifle is generally in poor condition, so I shoot 5 grains of BE with the 110 grain Win HBHPMJ. The barrel marking of .25-20 has been X'ed out and beneath that is stamped .357. The bore is excellent with sharp rifling. Whoever did the conversion knew their business. Even with the equivalent of a .38 plus P load, out of a .357 case, it is a tack driver at up to 100 yards. I like it a lot. It holds 11 in the tube, which is a lot of shooting before reloading.
El Tigre
In the '60s some outfit in south america converted a bunch of Villa era 92s to 357. A lot of them had a bushing and smaller firing pin added and there was a warning not to dry fire them. I believe they were called "El Tigre" carbines.
I bought one because it had a beautiful stock. I got rid of it not long afterwards. John Paul
In the '60s some outfit in south america converted a bunch of Villa era 92s to 357. A lot of them had a bushing and smaller firing pin added and there was a warning not to dry fire them. I believe they were called "El Tigre" carbines.
I bought one because it had a beautiful stock. I got rid of it not long afterwards. John Paul
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Clark
Member
In 1964 in "Speer 6":
38 sp 160 gr LSWC 5.5 gr Unique
357 mag 160 gr LSWC 7 gr Unique
In 1998 "Speer 13"
357 mag 158 gr LSWC, 6 gr Unique
Now the Alliant web site:
http://recipes.alliantpowder.com/rg.taf?_function=pistolrevolver&step=1
38 sp 158 gr LSWC 4.3 gr Unique
38 sp +P 158 gr LSWC 4.5 gr Unique
357 mag 158 gr LSWC 6.8 gr Unique
These are all wimpy loads compared to _____ gr LIL'GUN
38 sp 160 gr LSWC 5.5 gr Unique
357 mag 160 gr LSWC 7 gr Unique
In 1998 "Speer 13"
357 mag 158 gr LSWC, 6 gr Unique
Now the Alliant web site:
http://recipes.alliantpowder.com/rg.taf?_function=pistolrevolver&step=1
38 sp 158 gr LSWC 4.3 gr Unique
38 sp +P 158 gr LSWC 4.5 gr Unique
357 mag 158 gr LSWC 6.8 gr Unique
These are all wimpy loads compared to _____ gr LIL'GUN
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JackM
Member
_____ grains is a mite more than Hodgdon's recommended 18.0 grains. http://www.hodgdon.com/data/pistol/357mag.php
Sounds like a maximum overload to me.
Bye
Jack
Sounds like a maximum overload to me.
Bye
Jack
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Johnny Guest
Moderator In Memoriam
Posting Extreme Overloads
Please, everyone - - -
Mention of warmish loads - - -even those beyond currently published informaiton - - is tolerable if you can point out where the load has EVER been suggested in recognized manuals and such.
If you have no published authority for a certain hot load but have been using it yourself, and want to share it with the membership, please be sure to include appropriate Bold Face warnings and a disclaimer. Something as simple as - - -
CAUTION: This load data EXCEEDS CURRENTLY PUBLISHED MAXIMUMS. It may cause damage to firearms and personal injury. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK.
A lot of newcomers to handloading read what we write here. Fair play requires that we be careful about offering loads that might cause harm to them. Some here enjoy - - - and can afford to test loads and guns "to destruction" and others can't. What might simply lock up or de-tune one shooters gun in a cool climate might blow up another's in a warmer locale. Let's truly "take the High Road" and make certain to give others fair warning when we write about going beyond the line.
Thanks, all - -
Johnny Guest
H&R Modertor
Please, everyone - - -
Mention of warmish loads - - -even those beyond currently published informaiton - - is tolerable if you can point out where the load has EVER been suggested in recognized manuals and such.
If you have no published authority for a certain hot load but have been using it yourself, and want to share it with the membership, please be sure to include appropriate Bold Face warnings and a disclaimer. Something as simple as - - -
CAUTION: This load data EXCEEDS CURRENTLY PUBLISHED MAXIMUMS. It may cause damage to firearms and personal injury. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK.
A lot of newcomers to handloading read what we write here. Fair play requires that we be careful about offering loads that might cause harm to them. Some here enjoy - - - and can afford to test loads and guns "to destruction" and others can't. What might simply lock up or de-tune one shooters gun in a cool climate might blow up another's in a warmer locale. Let's truly "take the High Road" and make certain to give others fair warning when we write about going beyond the line.
Thanks, all - -
Johnny Guest
H&R Modertor
Clark
Member
I wrote Hodgdon and asked why they don't publish my load, and the response was that they couldn't fit that much powder in the case. I use double compression.
Johnny Guest
Moderator In Memoriam
I can't help myself, I just GOTTA ask - - -
Clark you wrote,
Aside to other members: It has been established elsewhere that Clark is indeed a pretty advanced experimenter in the realm of super high pressure. gun wrecking, hand loading. Kids, don't try this at home!
Best,
Johnny
Clark you wrote,
With some fear and trepidation, I must question: What do you mean by "Double Compression?" You are invited to go ahead and mention specific charge amounts in your answer.
Aside to other members: It has been established elsewhere that Clark is indeed a pretty advanced experimenter in the realm of super high pressure. gun wrecking, hand loading. Kids, don't try this at home!
Best,
Johnny
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Clark
Member
By double compression, I mean that I fill the case with powder and then I compress the powder before adding more powder to the case. Sometimes I compress the powder with a bullet held in an RCBS collet bullet puller die mounted in a press, and sometimes I use a pin gauge held the same way.
I thought I was inventing the process and gave it a very good name because other loaders I talked to were quick to pick up the lingo. Then I found out that the black powder people invented the process a long time ago and incredibly.. gave it the same name. Of course there is the possibility that I read about double compression years ago and forgot about it, but I don't think so. I have almost no exposure to black powder.
Sat, 15 Mar 2003 To: [email protected]
>> Hi,
>>
>> I got your [Annual] Manual.
>>
>> I have been loading 26 gr LIL'GUN and 158 gr LSWC in the 357 magnum.
>> This seems to be the most powerful 357 magnum load I have found by a wide margin.
>>
>> 1) Why do you specify LIL'GUN 158 gr JHP 357 mag at 18 gr 25.8 kcup, when you spec other powders at much higher pressures?
>>
>> 2) You do not show any 158 gr lead bullet loads for LIL'GUN in 357 mag. Is there a problem with LIL'GUN and lead bullets?
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>> Clark Magnuson
>> Mercer Island WA
Monday March 17, 2003:
> 1) we run out of case capacity and cannot get more powder into the case.
>
> 2) large charges of LIL Gun tend to melt the base of plain base lead
> bullets.
>
> Mike Daly
> Director of Customer Service
I should say that I don't own any REAL 357 magnum revolvers, only about ten 38 specials that I have converted with a reamer. I got 5 police surplus Colt Police Positive 38 specials for destructive test from AIM for $80 each, and these have turned out to be of outstanding quality. They are better than half my modern Smith and Wessons.
I thought I was inventing the process and gave it a very good name because other loaders I talked to were quick to pick up the lingo. Then I found out that the black powder people invented the process a long time ago and incredibly.. gave it the same name. Of course there is the possibility that I read about double compression years ago and forgot about it, but I don't think so. I have almost no exposure to black powder.
Sat, 15 Mar 2003 To: [email protected]
>> Hi,
>>
>> I got your [Annual] Manual.
>>
>> I have been loading 26 gr LIL'GUN and 158 gr LSWC in the 357 magnum.
>> This seems to be the most powerful 357 magnum load I have found by a wide margin.
>>
>> 1) Why do you specify LIL'GUN 158 gr JHP 357 mag at 18 gr 25.8 kcup, when you spec other powders at much higher pressures?
>>
>> 2) You do not show any 158 gr lead bullet loads for LIL'GUN in 357 mag. Is there a problem with LIL'GUN and lead bullets?
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>> Clark Magnuson
>> Mercer Island WA
Monday March 17, 2003:
> 1) we run out of case capacity and cannot get more powder into the case.
>
> 2) large charges of LIL Gun tend to melt the base of plain base lead
> bullets.
>
> Mike Daly
> Director of Customer Service
I should say that I don't own any REAL 357 magnum revolvers, only about ten 38 specials that I have converted with a reamer. I got 5 police surplus Colt Police Positive 38 specials for destructive test from AIM for $80 each, and these have turned out to be of outstanding quality. They are better than half my modern Smith and Wessons.
Johnny Guest
Moderator In Memoriam
Clark - - - Thanks for the answer.
I wondered if it might be something of the sort, but I'd never tried it, even when trying to load a LOT of black powder into modern solid web .45 Colt cases. Wish I'd known about the technique at the time.
Interesting about the Police Positive Specials. I'd always thought the all steel Colt D frames were a good deal stronger than some of the web comments indicate. Had no idea they were THAT surdy, though.
I wondered if it might be something of the sort, but I'd never tried it, even when trying to load a LOT of black powder into modern solid web .45 Colt cases. Wish I'd known about the technique at the time.
Interesting about the Police Positive Specials. I'd always thought the all steel Colt D frames were a good deal stronger than some of the web comments indicate. Had no idea they were THAT surdy, though.
Clark
Member
I can experiment and blow up cylinders and maybe even predict the ratio of fatigue strength to yield strength, but this shooting loose probem is not predictable. If the cylinder lines up with the barrel perfectly, there may be no forces from hot loads twisting on the cylinder.
I have an S&W 29-4 that has never got any looseness [at all] to the cylinder is years of full house 44 mag shooting, and with the same N frame, I have a 25-2 that shot loose with 30 years of wimp 45 acp loads.
What I like about the Colt Police Positives is that they have never got any looseness for me. They may blow up with AA#5 or LONGSHOT, but they hold together perfectly and kick like a mule with LIL'GUN.
I have an S&W 29-4 that has never got any looseness [at all] to the cylinder is years of full house 44 mag shooting, and with the same N frame, I have a 25-2 that shot loose with 30 years of wimp 45 acp loads.
What I like about the Colt Police Positives is that they have never got any looseness for me. They may blow up with AA#5 or LONGSHOT, but they hold together perfectly and kick like a mule with LIL'GUN.
JohnK
Member
They ran out of room in the case and couldn't fit any more than 18.0 gr in?? Did someone trim their magnum brass down to 38 Colt length?
Or maybe they're using a different Lil'Gun than that what came in the canisters I bought because the 357 Magnum cases I have hold a lot more than 18.0 gr, even without using a trickler or any other special techniques, just dropped from the powder measure like any other load.
To get back to the original question I've always liked 5.5 gr of Unique under 158 gr cast bullets in the 357. It's not a hot load, about a low end +P 38 special, but it works well and is fun to shoot.
Or maybe they're using a different Lil'Gun than that what came in the canisters I bought because the 357 Magnum cases I have hold a lot more than 18.0 gr, even without using a trickler or any other special techniques, just dropped from the powder measure like any other load.
To get back to the original question I've always liked 5.5 gr of Unique under 158 gr cast bullets in the 357. It's not a hot load, about a low end +P 38 special, but it works well and is fun to shoot.
Clark
Member
JohnK,
The Midway Load Map says that 5.5 gr of Unique and 158 gr lead in a 357 mag is 28.8kpsi.
If 38 sp is 17 kpsi
+ P is 18.5 kpsi
then 5.5 gr is +P+++++++
That is 8 plusses.
What went wrong that Midway could get the max loads so far off and make
a useless load book, when Speer had that load working in 1964?
They used an "Oehler System 83 and piezoelectric transducers, the latest
in industry standard equipment".
The Midway Load Map says that 5.5 gr of Unique and 158 gr lead in a 357 mag is 28.8kpsi.
If 38 sp is 17 kpsi
+ P is 18.5 kpsi
then 5.5 gr is +P+++++++
That is 8 plusses.
What went wrong that Midway could get the max loads so far off and make
a useless load book, when Speer had that load working in 1964?
They used an "Oehler System 83 and piezoelectric transducers, the latest
in industry standard equipment".
JohnK
Member
That's interesting, Alliant shows that 7.8 gr of Unique under a 158 gr JSP with a shorter OAL is 33,200 PSI.
Alliant also lists 4.5 gr of Unique at 17,100 PSI in 38 Special +P. One more grain in the larger 357 case with a longer OAL shouldn't raise pressures that much, and the velocity doesn't indicate high pressure, that load still does right around 950 fps.
I think the Midway roadmap took a wrong turn somewhere.
Alliant also lists 4.5 gr of Unique at 17,100 PSI in 38 Special +P. One more grain in the larger 357 case with a longer OAL shouldn't raise pressures that much, and the velocity doesn't indicate high pressure, that load still does right around 950 fps.
I think the Midway roadmap took a wrong turn somewhere.
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