Help with a 1911 chronic jam please (pics included)

[realmswalker]

I have a springfield milspec.

It has jammed on me every magazine at least for one round. I took it to a gunsmith who said my mag catch needed to be raised. so I did it. Took it shooting. It still jams. Did a little research that said it might be hanging up on the extractor if the extractor was too tight. So I loosen the extractor. Shoot said gun again. Same jam. I buy a new extractor. Same jam.

I do a little research that says to test it without an extractor in the gun to see if the extractor is the problem. Firing pin and extractor removed. first round into gun, same jam. I have 5 different magazines, a colt OEM, a chip mcormick powermag, a chip mcormick shooting star mag, and two unknown mags. It does this with all of the magazines. My magazines are not dirty. it doesnt matter if I have 10 rounds or three rounds in the mag, it will usually jam in this manner. Gun is very well maintained and properly lubed. I am not limp wristing, it mainly does this upon releasing the slide on a fresh magazine.

If my sentences seem short and choppy it's because i was trying to make this story as brief as possible.

Here are pictures of the problem.

The ammo is my own reloads. 230 grain jacketed round nose. 1.260 OAL. crimped. These same rounds run just fine in my USP fullsize, my usp compact and my colt mark IV series 70 using these same magazines. It seems the round is either entering the chamber at too sharp an angle and getting caught on the top part of the chamber, or it's getting hung up on the breech face somehow. Pistol experts please tell me what I must do to fix this gun, I like it when it works. Thank you in advance for your help.

 

[Oro]

This is a feeding issue, correct? The rounds are failing to feed and hanging up, not failing to eject? I ask as pictured is a fired case, but I am guessing you used that to illustrate for convenience and safety - correct?

If that's the case, then I suspect you need to examine the frame ramp and barrel mouth to see if they:

1) have been modified
2) have any defects

Lastly, it COULD be your ammo - I have seen reloads that run in some guns and not in others, depending upon variables in the gun in question. However, a Springer Mil-Spec should not be so overly tight as to make this an issue, but it's possible. Before doing anything else to the gun, I would also suggest trying it with factory ammo. Is your crimp tight enough and not driving the bullet in when hitting the ramp? Try measuring rounds before you attempt to load them, then after a jam. You might want to load some dummy rounds sans primer and powder for these tests.

In a last case scenario, from what I understand of SA's cs policy, they will likely fix it for you if none of the above apply.

 

[realmswalker]

Oro, you are correct this is a feeding issue, not an ejection issue. These are live rounds, but the ejector and firing spring have been removed so I feel confident I will not have a round go off.

I have examined the frame ramp and barrel mouth pretty closely and they look to have no modifications and no defects as far as I can tell. I can post more detailed pics if needed of these areas. my bullets are crimped quite tight, they are not being pushed back into the case in any way shape or form. The gun fired and ejects perfectly, this is strictly a feeding issue. Factory ammo gives me the same issue.

I am going to have a smith polish everything he can and see if that helps. If not I will send it back to springfield. Thank you for the help.

 

[INSULATION TIM]

I have been having the same issue with my RIA 1911 that is new. It is more sporadic and I only shoot factory fresh ammo, Blazer, Winchester White and Speer Lawman. Always on the first round. The mags I use are RIA that came with the gun and 2 Kimber magazines that the salesmen recommended.

Last night I honed the ramp very lightly with a Spyderco Ultra Light sharpening rod and then polished everything with Flitz. If I can get to the range today, I'll report back.

 

[Oro]

I am thinking then you have a ramp angle/shape or a barrel mouth with a bad angle. You have been very thorough in describing the problem and helping rule out mags/rounds/etc. with comparisons and cross-testing.

I have had this problem myself in a custom built 1911 in .40, and it came down to the wrong ramp angle.

The other thing to consider is barrel fit - it can induce this if it is really poorly fit to the slide or frame via the lugs or the link. On second examination of your photos (and I should have noticed this the first time), it looks like there is a lot of wear on the top of your barrel hood from the frame - do you see the marks I mean? I have some experience with this with a few guns, but there are more knowledgeable folks here who may chime in with better ideas soon.

With your gun sitting unloaded, how much vertical play is there in the barrel-to-slide in the vertical if you push down with your thumb on the barrel hood? A little, none, etc?

 

[RogersPrecision]

real,
Check the width of the breechface.
Should be .480" minimum.

 

[rcmodel]

Take a black magic-marker and completely color a round, then try to feed it into the gun.

Note where the marker rubs off when you take the round back out.

BTW: Take out the recoil spring so you have complete control of the slide as you move it slowly into battery. You can then feel the exact point where the problem occurs.

I suspect a sharp edge on the feed ramp/chamber break-over is grabbing the side of the case and stopping it.

Polishing it just enough to break the sharp edge & round it very slightly might be all it needs.

PS: A short OAL can also help cause this problem.
You might want to seat the bullets just a tad longer.
GI mil-spec ball ammo is loaded to 1.266" - 1.271" OAL.

rc

 

[realmswalker]

Thank you for your help guys.

oro, with no magazine i the gun and the slide closed, I push on the Barrel hood and there is NO play whatsoever, it is solid as a rock.

Rogers I will measure the width of the breachface.

Rc I will also color a round and see what happens.

I will report back with my findings shortly.

 

[JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone]

I will report back with my findings shortly.

Well?

I would do exactly what RC said. Been there.. Done that.. Oh so many stories those little scrapes tell.

But, before you do any polishing, talk to Springfield first if there's any warranty available on this pistol. Doing any work yourself may void your chances of Springfield making repairs for free.

-Steve

 

[2RCO]

Swap out the barrel and link with one of your other 1911's and see what happens. I'm thinking the feedramp is not the proble but rather the chambering is off (see manufacturer defect) If the swap works buy yourself a new barrel.

 

[JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone]

Swap out the barrel and link with one of your other 1911's and see what happens.

While not being a gunsmith myself -so I am certainly not an expert, I might try something like this with my own guns. I would just switch the whole upper (if compatable), for the first attempt.

But I would never suggest this to anyone with an issue to do it with their guns. While it could transfer the problem to another frame, if there is something that has worn out of spec, could introduce a new new issue.

I'd refrain from that until the 'sharpie pen scrape test' results have been analyzed.

I have to ask though.

it mainly does this upon releasing the slide on a fresh magazine

Me thinks that from the photos, these stuck rounds will actually sail home with a little push. Will they? A new recoil spring might only be the answer.

but the ejector and firing spring have been removed

Firing pin and extractor removed.

Huh?

-Steve

 

[Ridgerunner665]

Polish the breechface and replace the recoil spring and shorten the OAL of your ammo to 1.25".

EDIT: Shorten the OAL first...that may fix it. If that don't do it polish the breechface...it looks rough to me, it should be as smooth as the feedramp. If it still does it, replace the recoil spring.

I bet 1 or all of those suggestions will fix it...it could be any combination of them, or only 1 of them.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

One more question...when you say "jacketed round nose", do you mean that bullet has an exposed lead tip? (If so, that may be your problem...along with OAL too long)

Or is it FMJ?

1911's vary greatly sometimes when it comes to what OAL they like...it could be anywhere between 1.25" and 1.27". It just depends on the chamber, feedramp, where the mag sits in the frame, and sometimes even spring weights.

 

[JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone]

and shorten the OAL of your ammo to 1.25".

Although his ammo is 1.260" and runs fine in two other pistols, I'd figure that lengthening his load toward the upper end of spec at .1.27" so the longer bullet as it rides into the chamber would kick the heal up a bit.

I'm still leaning on the ink test.

I do well with ink blots.

-Steve

 

[Ridgerunner665]

I'd figure that lengthening his load toward the upper end of spec at .1.27" so the longer bullet as it rides into the chamber would kick the heal up a bit

Or it could produce the infamous "3 point jam" (stem bind)

In all honesty you may be right...OAL's can go either way.

But when I look at the pics...the first thing I see is the rough looking breechface and the possibility of a weak recoil spring.

Pics help, but they don't always tell the whole story...I'm no expert anyway (but I'm learning)...where's 1911Tuner these days anyway???

 

[JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone]

True. Photographs don't always tell all. My breach faces are smoother than his appears to be, but I've seen some pitted faces that still allow ammo to feed reliably. If they'll slide home with a push then I'd lean spring and some thorough cleaning and a little polish. The ink test will prove that one way or the other.

He doesn't mention any dents in his cases on the bottom... He doesn't mention whether he's tested his loaded rounds without primer/powder. Primers not seated deep enough might do this too..
But he says that "Factory ammo gives me the same issue." So, I'd lean away from the ammo.

The heavy crimp does have me perplexed. Needs to read Tuners thread on head space.

-Steve

 

[Ridgerunner665]

Heavy crimps can cause problems in some guns, while others are fine.

I crimp mine a .468 and they headspace fine in my Stinger. That said...not all chambers are exactly the same either. I get better accuracy and more consistent velocities with a heavy crimp.

Some 1911's headspace off the extractor...thats not the proper way to do it I know, but I have seen a few that do and they run fine (but seem to break extractors more often).

 

[realmswalker]

Jack I meant the extractor, not the ejector.
And they will not chamber with a push, but If I pull back the slide just a tad then let it come forward, the round feed will feed 9 out of 10 times.

Ride I meant FMJ. My spring does feel tight on this gun.

Jack, my primers are seated deep enough, I inspect each one and use an rcbs aps hand primer. My crimp is no really heavy, I just know that it is is crimped well enough. I have put 100's of my reloads through other pistols with not even a hiccup, so I am confident in my ammo. I am a very thorough and methodical reloader. I load everything on a single stage press.

Here are the pictured of the magic marker bullet.

In the first pic the bullet chambered just fine, I inspected the round for marks and found only a slight dent on the bullet itself near where the case mouth is, probably from where it hit the feed ramp, but still chambered just fine.

[/IMG]

These two pictures are from my second attempt to load the pistol which produced the jam. This picture of the only mark I can see that was made on the pistol that messed up the sharpie. the brass is scored a little bit and an edge does catch on my fingernail when i run it across that mark.

[/IMG]

[/IMG]

 

[Ridgerunner665]

OUCH...1 more pic please.

Of the pistol with the slide locked back...try to show the feedramp and chamber.

 

[Odd Job]

Try factory ammo first.
If that works, compare the measured diameter at the case mouth between your rounds and the factory rounds.

Edit: I didn't read properly, disregard

 

[Taurus 617 CCW]

It may be as simple as chamferring the outside of the case more. A guy I work with was having problems with his reloads (he is an ISPC shooter and expert loader). After using the dial calibers on every square inch of the case I noticed that he didn't chamfer the outside of the case mouth and they were hanging up in the chamber. You may also try playing with the factory crimp setting on your loading die.

 

[JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone]

Wow! RCMODEL please respond.

He doesn't mention any dents in his cases on the bottom...

OK, he does now..

Again, I'm no gunsmith.. So I look to RC's advice. Or Tuner.. Where's Tuner?

I don't see this as an ammo issue at all.

OUCH...1 more pic please.

Of the pistol with the slide locked back...try to show the feedramp and chamber.

Yes please, need that view too.

The two latter photos tell exactly where the bind is. (Not sure we needed ink for this one.) The bottom of the entrance to chamber/feed ramp. Ah, but why? is this a case of too sharp of lip or is it a timing issue with the barrel riding too high before going into full battery?

This gun doesn't appear to be new. Are you the original owner? Has the barrel or link ever been replaced?

-Steve

 

[rcmodel]

Most assuredly a sharp edge in the feed ramp/ chamber break-over point. Polish it until the sharp edge is rounded just a tiny bit, like a .001" - .002" radius. Just enough so it won't dig into the cartridge case.

You said you were seating 1.260 OAL.
See post #7 again for the correct OAL for 230 RN-FMJ.

If it won't feed 230 grain ball ammo at an OAL of 1.266" - 1.271", you have a gun problem.

Seated shorter then that will cause the bullet ogive to hit the top of the chamber too late and cause the break-over out of the magazine feed lips to happen at a too steep angle, causing the damage shown in your photos.
Especially if the feed ramp transion has a sharp unpolished edge.

rc

 

[Landor]

I had some S&B ammo that did exactly what is happening to you. The case seems to get tilted in the barrel and the extractor is trying to pull out a crooked case with no luck. Check your case dimensions.

 

[JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone]

Says that this gun will function 9 of 10 times it cycles. I would guess that there are minute brass bits in the magwell and other internals after a shooting session.

If any gun is chewing up brass, there's an issue.

RC, is this sharp point at the forward top of the frame feed ramp, or the lower inside edge of the chamber entrance? It would appear that this stuck is well past the feed ramp. Or could that be cutting brass enough to create a bur that could be catching as it enters the chamber?

-Loading ammo to spec might still be warranted.

-Steve