rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Chamber feed ramp break-over point, where the sharp edge of the chamber intersects the feed ramp cut in the barrel.
rc
Help with a 1911 chronic jam please (pics included)
- Thread starter realmswalker
- Start date
- Status
rc
JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone
Member
Thanx RC,
that was more for 'Reams' clarification than mine. Correct me if I'm wrong.. a little 600grit with light oil using a 3/8" wooden dowel with some inward rolling strokes should do the trick. Right?
If he posts the pic of his slide locked back, one of us might be able to edit it and circle the right spot to pay attention to...
-Steve
that was more for 'Reams' clarification than mine. Correct me if I'm wrong.. a little 600grit with light oil using a 3/8" wooden dowel with some inward rolling strokes should do the trick. Right?
If he posts the pic of his slide locked back, one of us might be able to edit it and circle the right spot to pay attention to...
-Steve
Last edited:
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Yes, a dowel & 600 paper should do the trick.
I prefer to use an extra-fine Cratex point in a Dremel, but I hate to recommend a Dremel to anyone!
As for a photo?
I don't have one handy, but it should be pretty evident from relmswalker's photo what put that divot in the case.
rc
I prefer to use an extra-fine Cratex point in a Dremel, but I hate to recommend a Dremel to anyone!
As for a photo?
I don't have one handy, but it should be pretty evident from relmswalker's photo what put that divot in the case.
rc
realmswalker
Member
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2003
- Messages
- 415
Thank you guys for the help. I will get some more pictures to you today. I will get some very detailed pictures of the feed ramp and barrel chamber. would you like pictures of it with the slide locked back, or would you like me to strip it down and take some more closeup shots?
Jack I am not the original owner and I do not know if the barrel or link has been replaced.
Jack I am not the original owner and I do not know if the barrel or link has been replaced.
JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone
Member
I think a photo of the uncleaned pistol from the top looking forward from the rear, with slide locked back would be a good start. One of us should be able to edit exactly where you need to touch up.
I'll give it a crack and RC can slap my wrist if I'm wrong.
Feeding round nose ball... Heck, with a little attention you'll have the thing feeding semi-wad cutters in no time!
-Steve
I'll give it a crack and RC can slap my wrist if I'm wrong.
Feeding round nose ball... Heck, with a little attention you'll have the thing feeding semi-wad cutters in no time!
-Steve
Last edited:
realmswalker
Member
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2003
- Messages
- 415
Ok here are the pics I have, let me know if you want different angles or want me to take the slide off.
[/IMG]
[/IMG]
[/IMG]
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Nothing there is a picture of what we are talking about.
Look inside the chamber, at the bottom where the feed ramp cut ends, for a sharp edge!
I don't know how to better describe it with words then I already have several times!
This is not a 1911 barrel obvously.
But imagine where the round would contact this chamber were it tilted to the same angle as the one stuck in your pictures.
rc
Look inside the chamber, at the bottom where the feed ramp cut ends, for a sharp edge!
I don't know how to better describe it with words then I already have several times!
This is not a 1911 barrel obvously.
But imagine where the round would contact this chamber were it tilted to the same angle as the one stuck in your pictures.
rc
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Worse better picture
Here we go!
rc
Here we go!
rc
Ridgerunner665
Member
Looks to me like the top of the feedramp is what its catching on...Polish the feedramp.
Geneseo1911
Member
The top of that feedramp looks sharp to me, too. I'd try to smooth down that sharp edge a little. However the first pictures you posted look like it's getting past that point before it gets stuck. Good job with the pictures by the way; I have a had time taking closeups like that.
The top of the feedramp and bottom of the chamber line up better on my Springfield. Is that much distance normal?
The top of the feedramp and bottom of the chamber line up better on my Springfield. Is that much distance normal?
Cloudpeak
Member
Springfield has a life time warranty and pays shipping both ways for covered warranty issues, even if you're not the first owner. Of course, if you do some "smithing" on the pistol, that may not be the case
For something that does not involve home smithing the pistol, I'd load some dummy rounds at different OAL's. My guess is a shorter round may work.
I had stem bind on a couple of my Springfield's when I was shooting Lee 200 gr SWC's. Lessening extractor tension helped. Changing to a Lyman 200 gr SWC solved the problem 100%. I've seen other's who have had problems with 200 gr SWC's and seeing a 1911 that won't feed 230 gr RN's seems to be pretty rare.
Cloudpeak
For something that does not involve home smithing the pistol, I'd load some dummy rounds at different OAL's. My guess is a shorter round may work.
I had stem bind on a couple of my Springfield's when I was shooting Lee 200 gr SWC's. Lessening extractor tension helped. Changing to a Lyman 200 gr SWC solved the problem 100%. I've seen other's who have had problems with 200 gr SWC's and seeing a 1911 that won't feed 230 gr RN's seems to be pretty rare.
Cloudpeak
RogersPrecision
Member
"The top of that feedramp looks sharp to me, too. I'd try to smooth down that sharp edge a little."
Bad advice.
Read the feedramp stickies at the top of the page.
Bad advice.
Read the feedramp stickies at the top of the page.
JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone
Member
He's already loading the rounds shorter than spec. And a shorter round would most assuredly compound the isue as the cartridge angle at entrance would be increased and not kick the heel up at all. As was mentioned before.. 3pt jam. His current jam occurs with factory ammo too.
RCmodel's post #34 is the answer for the first step. Just roll that edge ever so slightly across ~25% (of the complete radius) of the sharp edge of the inner bottom radius of the entrance to the chamber.. Oh, what did RC call it earlier? "the feed ramp break over point". No it doesn't look sharp. But taking a little bit at a time, and I mean a LITTLE until things work is the key.
The jam that's occuring is well after leaving the frame ramp. Is that where the scraping is occuring then that cut gets stuck at the break over point? Possible, but I doubt it.
Honestly, I'd try it on my gun...
-Steve
RCmodel's post #34 is the answer for the first step. Just roll that edge ever so slightly across ~25% (of the complete radius) of the sharp edge of the inner bottom radius of the entrance to the chamber.. Oh, what did RC call it earlier? "the feed ramp break over point". No it doesn't look sharp. But taking a little bit at a time, and I mean a LITTLE until things work is the key.
The jam that's occuring is well after leaving the frame ramp. Is that where the scraping is occuring then that cut gets stuck at the break over point? Possible, but I doubt it.
And this is still an option. But it appears that the OP would like to fix this himself.
Honestly, I'd try it on my gun...
-Steve
JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone
Member
MDCD, Look at the photos in post #18... Certainly not catching on the firing pine hole...
-Steve
-Steve
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
realmswalker
Member
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2003
- Messages
- 415
Just an update. I did a little polishing with some 600 grit sandpaper on the feed ramp and the bottom part of the chamber. I loaded some dummy rounds and I got the same jam at random times. There is one upside. After inserting a full mag and dropping the slide, I had hammer follow. Thank goodness this didnt happen with a live round while pointed at a wall or my tv or anything.
I took it to a gunsmith who said that the trigger was pretty light and had definitely been messed with. I am going to have him do a complete reliability package and make the gun safe most importantly. Secondly I hope he will get it running like a champ. Thank you for all the help.
I took it to a gunsmith who said that the trigger was pretty light and had definitely been messed with. I am going to have him do a complete reliability package and make the gun safe most importantly. Secondly I hope he will get it running like a champ. Thank you for all the help.
I'm curious to know what the cause of this is, please let us know when you get the gun back.
243winxb
Member
Also check the diameter of the rims. They can be oval shaped from repeated maximum loading. This one photos looks like the head is not sliding up the bolt face freely.View attachment 404540
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
*sigh*
Okay...at the risk of a fire...
What you have is a severe 3-Point Jam...one of the worst I've seen if the pictures are clear.
It's caused by the bullet nose impacting the barrel ramp instead of sliding over the top of it. Basically, the slide is pushing the barrel forward. As it moves forward, it also moves up. As it moves up, the upper lugs engage the slide lug recesses. When the barrel moves up too early...the lug corners catch instead of the lugs entering the recesses...and it jams up the works.
Because the slide is still trying to push the round forward, it creates the telltale gouge on the side of the case.
The origin of the problem is either the lower edge of the barrel ramp is flush with or overhanging into the frame ramp...or the angle on the frame ramp/feed ramp ain't 'cute enough...and is guiding the bullet nose into the barrel ramp.
If the barrel is overhanging...the ramp can be set forward a few thousandths. If it's the frame ramp angle...it needs to be recut, or a feed ramp insert of the correct geometry installed.
From the looks of the barrel ramp in post #32, it appears that somebody recognized the problem, and tried to rectify it. The problem is that they went about it the wrong way...likely with a Dremel, but possibly with a round file...and in the process, destroyed the case head support by cutting the barrel ramp deep into the chamber. Can anybody say "Ka-Freakin' Blooey?" (Ask me how I know.)
So...you definitely need a new barrel, and you may need to have the feed ramp recut to the correct angle...or a ramp insert...or a barrel with an integral ramp. I recommend the insert. I do not like ramped barrels on .45 caliber pistols, Sam I am.
Chuck Rogers is one of the top men in his field for ramp work.
Cheers...
Okay...at the risk of a fire...
What you have is a severe 3-Point Jam...one of the worst I've seen if the pictures are clear.
It's caused by the bullet nose impacting the barrel ramp instead of sliding over the top of it. Basically, the slide is pushing the barrel forward. As it moves forward, it also moves up. As it moves up, the upper lugs engage the slide lug recesses. When the barrel moves up too early...the lug corners catch instead of the lugs entering the recesses...and it jams up the works.
Because the slide is still trying to push the round forward, it creates the telltale gouge on the side of the case.
The origin of the problem is either the lower edge of the barrel ramp is flush with or overhanging into the frame ramp...or the angle on the frame ramp/feed ramp ain't 'cute enough...and is guiding the bullet nose into the barrel ramp.
If the barrel is overhanging...the ramp can be set forward a few thousandths. If it's the frame ramp angle...it needs to be recut, or a feed ramp insert of the correct geometry installed.
From the looks of the barrel ramp in post #32, it appears that somebody recognized the problem, and tried to rectify it. The problem is that they went about it the wrong way...likely with a Dremel, but possibly with a round file...and in the process, destroyed the case head support by cutting the barrel ramp deep into the chamber. Can anybody say "Ka-Freakin' Blooey?" (Ask me how I know.)
So...you definitely need a new barrel, and you may need to have the feed ramp recut to the correct angle...or a ramp insert...or a barrel with an integral ramp. I recommend the insert. I do not like ramped barrels on .45 caliber pistols, Sam I am.
Chuck Rogers is one of the top men in his field for ramp work.
Cheers...
saltydog452
Member
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2004
- Messages
- 1,707
With a pistol that is prone to 3 point lock-up, other than an insert or ramped barrel, what else can be done to improve feed reliability?
shorter link?...egg out one of the holes in the link?
Thanks,
salty
shorter link?...egg out one of the holes in the link?
Thanks,
salty
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Not a lot, salty. Unless the barrel riding the link hard, and pole-vaulting the barrel up too early and too abruptly, elongating the top of the hole won't help. At any rate, if you have to open it up more than about .003 inch to adjust the ride height, it either needs the correct link, or it needs a whole new barrel.
Since this thread is a year old, I'd like to add that I hope that the OP/gun owner didn't take the advice to polish the top corner of the feed ramp. That corner is supposed to be sharp. Rounding it off...even a little...effectively changes the ramp's angle and sends the bullet nose straight into the barrel ramp. Bad JuJu. Jam City. Stoppage Junction. Misfeedsboro.
Take the Dremel out in the street and hit it with a big hammer a few times if ya just can't resist usin' it on your gun.
Since this thread is a year old, I'd like to add that I hope that the OP/gun owner didn't take the advice to polish the top corner of the feed ramp. That corner is supposed to be sharp. Rounding it off...even a little...effectively changes the ramp's angle and sends the bullet nose straight into the barrel ramp. Bad JuJu. Jam City. Stoppage Junction. Misfeedsboro.
Take the Dremel out in the street and hit it with a big hammer a few times if ya just can't resist usin' it on your gun.
navyretired 1
Member
The answer is pretty well seen in first set of pictures. The rims looks like they're jammed against sides of breach face which is not allowing rim to slide up under extractor and yes I know the extractor is out.
Try removing slide and barrel then trying sliding case rims up and down breach face, I think you'll find them tight on sides of breach.
This could be filed but I wouldn't, it's a production mistake and I'dsend to SA with pictures and measurements.
That'sthe first thing I check when picking up a new slide for exactly this reason, after this cut is made in production many times and the broach is resharpened many times then the face gets narrower and narrower till it's too close to min. and cases jam on side.
Try it, if breach is narrow and your in a hurry a few minutes with a safe file will fix the problem. Hope this helps
I'd be interested in 1911 tuners take on this problem doesn't the pictures look like the brass's rim is jammed between the sides of the breach face, that would explain why some will go and some(wider specs) won't , I've seen it a few times.
Try removing slide and barrel then trying sliding case rims up and down breach face, I think you'll find them tight on sides of breach.
This could be filed but I wouldn't, it's a production mistake and I'dsend to SA with pictures and measurements.
That'sthe first thing I check when picking up a new slide for exactly this reason, after this cut is made in production many times and the broach is resharpened many times then the face gets narrower and narrower till it's too close to min. and cases jam on side.
Try it, if breach is narrow and your in a hurry a few minutes with a safe file will fix the problem. Hope this helps
I'd be interested in 1911 tuners take on this problem doesn't the pictures look like the brass's rim is jammed between the sides of the breach face, that would explain why some will go and some(wider specs) won't , I've seen it a few times.
Last edited:
Hi realmswalker,
Yes - close-up images showing feed ramp area, and views showing the opening of chamber.
As we see, the Cartridge is being caught and bitten by a sharp edge there, at the Chamber entrance area, as it enters at an angle ( which it must)...just as RC mentions....in fact, that is a nasty little 'bite' there.
Possibly the Chamber entrance of the Breech had a finishing-step overlooked by the Factory.
Given these are re-loads, I had the thought also, for you to check both the diameter of the Bullets, and, of the Case Neck once Loaded, to see that these are appropriate to spec for .45 Auto, and, not too 'fat'...but, probably that is not what is at play here.
Another simple test, with a definitely clean, no-excess-lube on it Cartridge, would be to remove the Extractor, remove Firing Pin, remove the Magazine, and, holding the Pistol on it's side sort of, see if it will chamber a round introduced by hand in an already aligned way...just to see if the Slide will chamber it alright, when the cartridge is headed in with little to no angle as it would when coming from the Magazine...or, see if it thumbs in alright, with the Slide locked 'back'.
Or, dis-assemble the Pistol, and, with the Barrel removed and on it's own, just see how a thumbed-in Round seems to fit.
Then see if it fall out when the Pistol ( or Barrel ) is elevated, or, if it needs a long Pencil to push it out.
May be a tight Chamber also, in addition to the sharp ridge which is doing the 'bite' on the Cartridge Case side...
Yes - close-up images showing feed ramp area, and views showing the opening of chamber.
As we see, the Cartridge is being caught and bitten by a sharp edge there, at the Chamber entrance area, as it enters at an angle ( which it must)...just as RC mentions....in fact, that is a nasty little 'bite' there.
Possibly the Chamber entrance of the Breech had a finishing-step overlooked by the Factory.
Given these are re-loads, I had the thought also, for you to check both the diameter of the Bullets, and, of the Case Neck once Loaded, to see that these are appropriate to spec for .45 Auto, and, not too 'fat'...but, probably that is not what is at play here.
Another simple test, with a definitely clean, no-excess-lube on it Cartridge, would be to remove the Extractor, remove Firing Pin, remove the Magazine, and, holding the Pistol on it's side sort of, see if it will chamber a round introduced by hand in an already aligned way...just to see if the Slide will chamber it alright, when the cartridge is headed in with little to no angle as it would when coming from the Magazine...or, see if it thumbs in alright, with the Slide locked 'back'.
Or, dis-assemble the Pistol, and, with the Barrel removed and on it's own, just see how a thumbed-in Round seems to fit.
Then see if it fall out when the Pistol ( or Barrel ) is elevated, or, if it needs a long Pencil to push it out.
May be a tight Chamber also, in addition to the sharp ridge which is doing the 'bite' on the Cartridge Case side...
Last edited:
- Status