help with Kettner info
- Thread starter Andy P
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WOW ! 
An amazing display of craftsmanship. How does the mechanics work ?
I have not seen one of this make up before. Condition looks like as new so it wasn't drug around the hunting camps for too long. Can you imagine the work to get 5 barrels to same point of impact back in the day when that one was built ? Now tell me you bought it at a garage sale for a couple hundred bucks !!
An amazing display of craftsmanship. How does the mechanics work ?
I have not seen one of this make up before. Condition looks like as new so it wasn't drug around the hunting camps for too long. Can you imagine the work to get 5 barrels to same point of impact back in the day when that one was built ? Now tell me you bought it at a garage sale for a couple hundred bucks !!
yea. it's in great shape. My great Uncle walked into a hunting shop near Berlin in 1945 just as the war was ending. The owner GAVE it to him. He told my Uncle that he would be losing everything within a day or two anyway. I just inherited it.
As far as mechanics, one hammer fires the four top barrels and the other fires the larger bottom barrel. Its a fairly large caliber. not sure what it is yet but I know my 30-30 cleaning tools were too small for the upper barrels. This thing must have been a handful to shoot!
As far as mechanics, one hammer fires the four top barrels and the other fires the larger bottom barrel. Its a fairly large caliber. not sure what it is yet but I know my 30-30 cleaning tools were too small for the upper barrels. This thing must have been a handful to shoot!
Jorg Nysgerrig
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I'm going to move this over to the firearms research section as some of the folks over there may some information.
As long as the barrels are over 16 inches long and they fire one at a time the BATFE could care less how many barrels it has. Don't worry about it . You have a very unique and valuable firearm. Kettner { Edward, of Suhl, Germany ) is listed as making high quality three barrel drilling's which start at over 3000 dollars in very good condition. Only an auction will ferret out the real value which I feel may approach the 5 figure mark.
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Thank you for the info. I look forward to hearing more from the wealth of knowledge I believe exists on the forum. So far I have not been able to find a single reference to a 5 barrled gun anywhere on the web so I am hoping someone sees this and has information. I also have someone at Kettner supposedly contacting me. Apparently they still exist in Germany.
I've never seen an example of one with more than 4 barrels, a "Vierling" type, with side-by-side rifle barrels flanking over/under shotgun barrels. One with four rifle barrels over a shotgun barrel looks more like a "masterpiece", made to demonstrate the talents of a Master Gunsmith, rather than a practical hunting weapon.
SDC
Member
A very nice example of what would be called a "funfling" ("funf"="five"). Have you had the forearm or barrels off? There will definitely be lots of proof info to tell you more about what this is chambered for, but if they're rifled barrels, probably only the bullet and powder weights, which is still going to need a chamber cast to nail down the specific cartridge. There were at least 2 "Kettners" making guns in Suhl, a Franz and an Eduard (Edward), so it's likely that this was a family operation. Please keep us updated and post more pictures.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Well, Welcome to THR!
Here we do care very much what the laws (and those who interpret and enforce them) say about firearms and we take great pains to help our members understand the law and avoid the long prison sentences and huge fines that come from certain gun law violations. In this case, you have no worries at all. That is a "Title I" long gun with few federal legal entanglements.
You have a beautiful exampld of a funfling or five-barrel gun.
Peter Hofer Jagdwaffen still makes these and many (many) other designs -- about the finest fireams craftsmanship the world has to offer. They can command truly enormous sums of money.
So a "funfling" is what its called. Thank you. I have had the barrels off. There are stamps on every one. I have learned alot about what the stamps mean from this Forum when I was doing internet research on the gun. On each there is a "U" with a crown over it, a "G" with a crown over it, and an "R" with a crown over it as well as the info for bullet and powder. I will send pics when I get a chance. All the barrels are rifled.
This Kettner is made by Franz. His name is on it. I will send a pic of that as well.
This Kettner is made by Franz. His name is on it. I will send a pic of that as well.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
A gunsmith would be able to make a "Cerrosafe" cast of each chamber, measure it, and tell you what cartridges it is designed to fire.
I'll bet you a nickle that at least one is chambered in 9.3x74R. Does it appear to you to be 4 of the same cartridge and then one larger one? Or lots of different chamberings? Some of these are nearly "chipmunk-to-cape buffalo" guns!
I'll bet you a nickle that at least one is chambered in 9.3x74R. Does it appear to you to be 4 of the same cartridge and then one larger one? Or lots of different chamberings? Some of these are nearly "chipmunk-to-cape buffalo" guns!
"As far as mechanics, one hammer fires the four top barrels and the other fires the larger bottom barrel."
I read this as all 4 barrels were fired at once. I meant no disrespect to you. But the ATF is unforgiving and i hate to see someone made an example of for something as silly as this gun being considered a machine gun.
I read this as all 4 barrels were fired at once. I meant no disrespect to you. But the ATF is unforgiving and i hate to see someone made an example of for something as silly as this gun being considered a machine gun.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Wow. 4 barrels of something significantly larger than .30 caliber firing at once? That would be memorable! And probably an indication that something was broken.
Double rifles, etc., were designed to give the hunter a quick follow up shot, not to go off at the same time.
It wouldn't have occurred to me to read it that way.
And probably an indication that something was broken. Double rifles, etc., were designed to give the hunter a quick follow up shot, not to go off at the same time.
It wouldn't have occurred to me to read it that way.
I appreciate your concern and no offense taken. You read correctly though. As far as I can tell the trigger that sets off the four top barrels cannot be recognized seperately by the hammer and firing pins. Therefore it seems they are designed to go off together. Scary. So does an old gun like this really fall into some obsure machine gun classification that makes it illegal?
Also, there is no question this gun has been more than occasionally used based on the wear on the hammer faces. But not since 1945.
Also, there is no question this gun has been more than occasionally used based on the wear on the hammer faces. But not since 1945.
additional info and pics
There are also two more stampings only on the lower left and right barrels. They are a letter "V" with a crown over it. No idea what these mean. I know the "U" is a craftsmenship proof stamp. The "G" indicates rifled barrels and the "R" indictates repair work has been performed. bullet and load numbers on the top four barrles are stamped as a fraction 129/43. The single lower barrel has 67/49.
There are also two more stampings only on the lower left and right barrels. They are a letter "V" with a crown over it. No idea what these mean. I know the "U" is a craftsmenship proof stamp. The "G" indicates rifled barrels and the "R" indictates repair work has been performed. bullet and load numbers on the top four barrles are stamped as a fraction 129/43. The single lower barrel has 67/49.
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Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Have you actually taken apart the lockworks to see if that's so? It probably has a mechanism by which it strikes each firing pin in a specific order and resets when you break the action open.
QUITE! That looks like far too nicely made a gun to be designed to be so completely useless. Like a Mercedes with no brakes.
If it actually fires more than one cartridge per each pull of the trigger, yes. Let's definitely hope that isn't the case.
One important addition to the above. A crowned U, absent a crowned N or the word Nitro can be interpreted as a blackpowder era gun. The doll's head lock is not especially strontg either. More photos would be helpful. Never having seen or heard of a five barrel jagdwaffe makes my head spin. Try the guys at the German gun collectors association for a gauge-caliber coversion chart and let us see those photos etc.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Well, it is obviously a metallic cartridge-firing breech-loading gun, so that means it can't be older than the middle (probably the last quarter, really) of the 19th century. But smokeless powder cartridges were not common until about turn of the 20th, so you've got a ~50 year window where many black-powder cartridge arms were made.
The exposed hammer design is reminiscent of an early design (very similar looking hammer arrangement to a percussion-cap ignition muzzle-loader). But that's not really a solid point of reference.
The condition of the bores appears immaculate, which might suggest that it was designed to fire more modern propellants (black powder is corrosive) but I would really want to see the right proof marks.
Getting chamber casts would also be a good indicator. Some cartridges were only popular in certain decades, and some weren't invented until smokeless powders came on the scene.
The exposed hammer design is reminiscent of an early design (very similar looking hammer arrangement to a percussion-cap ignition muzzle-loader). But that's not really a solid point of reference.
The condition of the bores appears immaculate, which might suggest that it was designed to fire more modern propellants (black powder is corrosive) but I would really want to see the right proof marks.
Getting chamber casts would also be a good indicator. Some cartridges were only popular in certain decades, and some weren't invented until smokeless powders came on the scene.
Jim Watson
Member
I cannot imagine a gun built to fire four barrels at once. I bet the one hammer fires the four upper barrels in rotation and the other fires the bottom barrel. So you could have two quick shots then three more just by recocking that hammer each time.
I have an old catalog that goes up to a vierling, a funfling is a large step ahead, especially all rifle barrels.
I have an old catalog that goes up to a vierling, a funfling is a large step ahead, especially all rifle barrels.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Yes indeed! That makes me really curious as to the intended use and what it is chambered to fire.
If it was a more common style of multi-barrel gun, firing three, four, or five different cartridges, I'd expect that you'd have to have a selector switch somewhere so that you didn't have to always shoot the .22 LR barrel first (for example) when you really wanted the 9.3x74R barrel to take a boar or whatever.
With no option given to the shooter as to which fires first, I'm guessing that all 4 top barrels are the same -- probably a medium game cartridge like 9.3mm -- and the bottom one is the dangerous game finisher, always ready for emergencies.
That would make a reasonable combination for a safari rifle where you might want to take various grazing animals or perhaps a cat, but there is always the chance you'd meet a buffalo or other large & disgruntled creature.
As per your advise, I have been to the site of the German Gun Collectors Assoc and there is alot of good info here. The question of barrel dimensions can now be answered. The top barrels are .330" and the lower is .410". This is based off the stampings on the barrels. The GGCA had a handy chart. I have asked for additional info and gave them a few pics to work with. I will keep you guys posted.
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