Help with wheel purchase please!

[Paddy]

I'm looking at picking up a new gun in the wheeled variety and need help. I've narrowed it down to a s&w medium but they have so many! I don't think I'll require 357 capability so that's not a factor. I'll reload for whatever I get so that's not a factor either. Here's the main criteria

Holds 6, as I might want to compete with it in the future
3-4" barrel
K or L frame
Adjustable sights.

So, from there things get muddy. The models 66 and 67 seem like winners, with the 67 being about 75$ Cheaper. The 686ssr seems pretty great too, about 180$ more than the 67. I'm not opposed to blued versions at all either, however they seem to have removed the comparable blued models from the lineup at least what's on their website. Lots of examples are 7 shot, which I don't want.

I understand the 686 is a L frame and has different forward cyl locking mech? If it's appreciably better mech then that might be a factor.
Do all of these models have tensioned barrels?

Lastly barrel length. Seems 3" is a rare bird anymore. I like the looks and feel of a 3" barrel, and I may actually find it easier to shoot as I tend to like shorter sight radius weapons, however I'm new to revolvers so not sure if I'd like a 4" better or not. They don't really seem to offer a 3" anyway so I'd be looking used if I wanted to go that way.

Can trigger action on all these be considered equal out of the box?

Lost. Help. Thanks.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

686's are available in a 3" model. 586's are still in production I believe, and if not, they are still prolific. If competition is a possibility, get at least a 4" barrel.

 

[Old Fuff]

I don't think I'll require 357 capability so that's not a factor.

So why pay extra for that feature? A .38 Special should do everything you want.

Why not consider a mechanically excellent with little cosmetic wear S&W model 15? While they are now discontinued they were once one of the most popular revolvers they ever made, and are easy to find in the second-hand market at attractive prices. Consider:

S&W K frame service revolver with deluxe target model options.*

6-shot/.38 Special

Barrel length = 2 or 4 inches (4" most common)

Adjustable sights

* Meaning identical to the model 14 Masterpiece (target) model, but with a 4" barrel and front sight designed to not snag when drawn from a holster. The barrel also had a slightly narrower rib and more taper to slightly reduce the weight.

If you are interested you will find lots of previous threads in the forum's archives by using search terms like model 15 and Combat Masterpiece.

 

[bannockburn]

Paddy

If I were looking to get into revolvers the first guns I would look at would be a decent used S&W K frame, preferably with a 4" barrel and adjustable sights like the Model 15 or Model 67. Moving up to a .357 my choice would be either a Model 19, Model 66, or an L frame Model 686; again all of them with a 4" barrel.

 

[Paddy]

Id consider used but if it's only a savings of 100-150$ I'll probably be inclined to get new, especially if it is a gun not designed for 357 but may have digested some.
Ones that look pretty rode-hard are still 350$+ and I'm not about to troll the gun shows for any amount of savings. Pretty much over that scene.

There isn't a 6 shot 686 with a 3" barrel in their current lineup. At least not that I see.

 

[Old Fuff]

... especially if it is a gun not designed for 357 but may have digested some.

Not very probable because you can't close the cylinder in a .38 Special if they're longer .357 Magnum cartridges in the chamber(s).

On the other hand if you shoot lead-bulleted .38 Specials in .357 chambers you have to be constantly cleaning out the lead that builds up in the front of the chamber. A better idea is to load .38 Special powder charges in .357 Magnum cases if you desire the lighter performance.

 

[MrBorland]

Good choices.

The 66 and 67 are k-frames, whereas the 686 is the slightly bigger L-frame. If you're thinking of competing with it, a little more weight up front can really help when things speed up, so all else equal, I'd lean towards the 66 over the 67, and the standard 686 over the 686SSR (OTOH, the former World IDPA Revolver Champ's choice of gun was the 67).

In the case of the 686, I personally find I can run the standard 686 faster, but the SSR version does come with a few extra goodies. The interchangeable front sight is a very nice feature, and this alone might be worth the premium placed on the SSR. IMO, the extra tuning S&W puts into the SSR version is minimal, however. If you just want a slightly-tuned 686 with good sights you can run from the factory without the hassle of more tuning, I'd recommend the SSR. OTOH, if you plan on tuning it anyway, I'd get the standard (4") 686.

Some will undoubtedly suggest an older vintage gun, but if you're planning on competing with it, I'd go new, as they have a number of features that're better for competition, and they're easier to tune and fix, if need be. I know darned few serious competitive revolver shooters who don't shoot newer guns.

I understand the 686 is a L frame and has different forward cyl locking mech? If it's appreciably better mech then that might be a factor.

You may be thinking of the new 66 vs the 686. The 686 locks up at the front like most S&W revolvers always have - the end of the ejector rod engages a bolt that resides under the barrel. The new 66 replaces this lock-up with a ball-detent in the yoke that engages the frame when the cylinder's closed. Done right, it's a pretty good lock-up. Done wrong, the ball detent is merely cosmetic. Fortunately, from what I've see, the ball detent on the new 66 is done right.

One disadvantage of the traditional front lockup of the 686 is that on all S&W revolvers, the ejector rod turns as the cylinder does, so if the ejector rod gets bent and/or becomes unscrewed, even slightly, it can affect the smoothness of the action. In extreme cases, it can lock it up. The ball detent system doesn't rely on locking the cylinder via the ejector rod, so a bent ejector rod won't impact the action.

Do all of these models have tensioned barrels?

Again, you may be thinking of the new 66 vs the 686. The barrel of the 686 is the traditional 1-piece barrel, and is screwed tightly into the frame. The barrel of the new 66, however, is a 2-piece barrel, where the inner barrel is screwed into the frame inside an outer shroud. The inner barrel is screwed into the frame with much less tension at the frame junction, and a T-shaped flange on it's muzzle end engages the shroud, so one might consider it to be "tensioned" on both ends.

Because they're less internally stressed, 2-piece barrels have a reputation for excellent accuracy. Replacement, however, is a factory-only job.

Lastly barrel length. Seems 3" is a rare bird anymore. I like the looks and feel of a 3" barrel, and I may actually find it easier to shoot as I tend to like shorter sight radius weapons, however I'm new to revolvers so not sure if I'd like a 4" better or not. They don't really seem to offer a 3" anyway so I'd be looking used if I wanted to go that way.

Since you're looking at 6-shot .38/.357s, the competition you're probably looking at is IDPA and/or ICORE (Classic division). If you're not going to regularly carry it, then, I'd recommend a 4" barrel.

Can trigger action on all these be considered equal out of the box?

Pretty much. Every gun will be different. A small number will be outright bad or spectacularly good, while most will be ok. If you want a competition- or match-grade action, plan on having a good 'smith (who knows what they're doing) work on it.

 

[Paddy]

Great Mr Borland and everyone also this is excellent info. So, with reviews of the two piece barrel being quite positive I tend to lean that way. The 66 has a 4.25" barrel. Was i reading that some comp rules limit to 4"? This would make that barrel too long for competition?
Also, without having been in a wheel gun comp do I need to be concerned with moon clips or speed loading capability?

 

[MrBorland]

The 66 has a 4.25" barrel. Was i reading that some comp rules limit to 4"? This would make that barrel too long for competition?

Technically, IDPA's limit for revolvers is 4.25", so you're good to go. I don't know that there's a length limit for ICORE Classic.

Also, without ever being in a wheel gun comp do I need to be concerned with moon clips or speed loading capability?

In IDPA and ICORE Classic, you'll be using speedloaders, so you won't need moonclip capability. You can use moons in IDPA, but if you do, you'll have to shoot ammo that's hotter than those using speedloaders. Using moonclips in ICORE will bump you into their Limited Division, and will likely do so against those using moonclipped 8-shooters.

Speaking of moonclipped 8-shooters, that's the hot ticket for USPSA, so if that's the game you're interested in, a 5" 627 is a much better choice than a speedloader-fed 6-shooter.

If really do want a 6-shooter and you just want moonclip capability so that you can use either, TK Custom can mill your cylinder to accept moons.

BTW, as far as speedloaders for competition, get either Safariland CompIIIs or Jetloaders, and pick up 3 speedloader holders while you're at it (North Mountain or ReadyTac). You can also get a single Safariland CompII to load your gun at the line, but otherwise, don't bother with anything other than CompIIIs or JLs.

 

[Paddy]

Great info thanks. The 6 shot thing was based purely on the "not certain" future that I would compete with it. I've been competing 3 gun lately and quite enjoy it, but I have no idea what sanctions of other types of comp are available in my area or even of interest to me, so it's sort of an ill-informed decision process so far. Otherwise, for pleasure shooting I don't think I care how many it holds. Heck, my auto only holds 8 so no big deal. Just want to keep options open so I don't have to get another piece to compete with if I decide to seek that out.

 

[Paddy]

OH also, it should be noted that I have XL hands and long arms so while it's possible for me to operate any size gun sometimes bigger gripped guns are more comfortable, but without some time behind one it's hard to say exactly what works best in my experience.

 

[MrBorland]

The 6 shot thing was based purely on the "not certain" future that I would compete with it. I've been competing 3 gun lately and quite enjoy it, but I have no idea what sanctions of other types of comp are available in my area or even of interest to me, so it's sort of an ill-informed decision process so far. Otherwise, for pleasure shooting I don't think I care how many it holds. Heck, my auto only holds 8 so no big deal. Just want to keep options open so I don't have to get another piece to compete with if I decide to seek that out.

Got it. Perfectly reasonable. 6-or 8-shot, K-, L- or N-frame, it'll make a good range gun. But yes, it'd be good to figure out which competitions are in your area before you buy. And ask around at your 3-gun match - someone might actually already have one of these and would be willing to bring it along next time for you to try out.

it should be noted that I have XL hands and long arms so while it's possible for me to operate any size gun sometimes bigger gripped guns are more comfortable, but without some time behind one it's hard to say exactly what works best in my experience.

There are plenty of aftermarket grip options available for S&W revolvers, so even getting a K-frame to fit shouldn't be a big deal.

 

[UKWildcatFan]

Ruger GP-100 Talo Edition? Novak adjustable rear sight with fiber front. Made for competition. At least check 'em out. I love mine.

 

[Panzerschwein]

Hunt for a gently used Model 67 or Model 15, and you'll have a great revolver that fits the bill. They're better than what S&W is making nowadays.

 

[gbran]

586, 4 inch, 357, 6 round

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...4_750001_750051_757767_-1_757751_757751_image

 

[Paddy]

Looks like there are more uspsa matches around me so it's possible my 6 shot criteria is not valid anymore. I looked at smiths 8 shot offerings. However looking at the 627 models, they cost 2x more! I take back any thanks to you Mr Borland! Also they are looking really big. Are they as easy to wield in a competition setting?

 

[Paddy]

Okay I see here that was the performance center version. Regular one is 150$ more. And comes 4" rather than 5". Seems like a winner. Now to find one I can paw somewhere.

 

[Tallball]

"Ruger GP-100..." (as suggested above).

I am 6'6". My FiL is 6'8". We have large hands. We bother prefer his GP-100 to my S&W K frame. It fits our big paws better.

 

[Paddy]

I went up the store this morning and pawed a few pistols. They had a N frame in 45acp and what I think was a k frame, it was a 696? Anyway the N frame fit my hand much better. Then I started considering the 8 shot when Mr Borland pointed out some of the comps rules that I'm totally daft to. This led to consideration of the 45acp models and I realized there is no piece that will do everything. Then I slammed my thumb in the van slider door so I can't even think about holding a pistol for a while.

I'd be interested to hear input on 45acp wheel guns while I ice myself and read up on rugers.

 

[MrBorland]

This led to consideration of the 45acp models and I realized there is no piece that will do everything.

Yup - due to the rules and the courses of fire, there's no single revolver that'd be optimal and/or legal for both IDPA and USPSA. A moonclipped 4" .45acp can be used in both, but it'd be a compromise for both games.

If you're the competitive type and don't want to compromise, and want a sport-specific rig, you'll need to figure out which game you'd like to play before buying. IDPA has a lower barrier to entry as far as gear goes, but the rules of the game itself make shooting IDPA much less freestyle than USPSA. Some enjoy that; others, not so much.

In my case, I started off in USPSA and enjoyed the freestyle shooting, but decided I actually liked shooting a speedloader-fed L-frame more than a moonclipped N-frame, so I gravitated to IDPA instead. My decision was largely based on gear, but some others might gravitate one way or another based on the rules of the game, your local venue, and of course, what's most available in your area.

 

[Stephanie B]

They had a N frame in 45acp and what I think was a k frame, it was a 696?

The 696 is a L frame, 5-shot .44 Special.



To say that they are "highly desirable" is understating things.

 

[Paddy]

Yes that was it. How high is highly? I think they wanted 1100 for the 696.
The N frame 45acp they had showed a strange bulge in the barrel, just about 3/8" forward of the forcing cone and I clearly saw it yet the shop keep seemed blind to it (funny how that works).

Yeah I know I'll check out some of the local matches at some point, but can't really do that without a gun so I think I am leaning towards a 6 shot 45acp. Seems easy to use, and easier to make power factor.
They offer matches in both idpa and uspsa around here so the sanction I stick with will likely be based on the whole scene wether it's the other people involved, the style of game that suits me or the convenience. Can't really know any of that until I get into it.

 

[MrBorland]

I am leaning towards a 6 shot 45acp...

...the sanction I stick with will likely be based on the whole scene wether it's the other people involved, the style of game that suits me or the convenience. Can't really know any of that until I get into it.

+1. I think that's the best plan at this point - start by getting a 4" .45acp and shooting both IDPA and USPSA with it. Once you figure out what's to your liking, you can make gear changes as needed and/or wanted.

 

[gotboostvr]

I have a 4" 625 and have shot 19's and 681's in IDPA (K&L frame 357's) I havent really run the 625 as much yet and don't have alot of the gear required to do so, but so far it's been an absolutely great revolver!
Hard to go wrong with any choice.

 

[bigtubby]

I have XXL hands as well and prefer the N frames and in my book you can't beat the 8 shooters. That being said I have a 625-3 5" 45acp that is a very accurate and easy gun to shoot. I only buy used guns and have not had any problems. Look at the R-8 I bought mine because it came available when I had cash in the pocket has the 2 piece barrel I normally don't go "Tacticool" and didn't care for the look of the gun until I began shooting it. R-8 is the black gun or the V-comps are great shooters as well. All are 8 shot guns