High End 1911s
- Thread starter Shell Shucker
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Define what you mean by accurate. DO you want to target shoot with one at 50 yards and putin 1.5" groups? Do you want 45, 10mm, 9mm? There's lot of options in 1911...
Or are you looking for accuracy as it relates to self-defense, where the distances are much closer, or what... IN which case, there aren't too many 1911's that are "inaccurate" for that kind of work. I suppose a couple shoot around corners, but ...
So lay out your parameters. A good gun smith can do wonders as long as he has a good base to work from, lots of people build up 1911's starting with caspian parts, and other manufacturers, you need to give more detail.
But in short, I don't think that 2000 dollars buys you a much tighter group than 1000 dollars. It may buy you a tighter group than 500 dollars, but not by much...
Or are you looking for accuracy as it relates to self-defense, where the distances are much closer, or what... IN which case, there aren't too many 1911's that are "inaccurate" for that kind of work. I suppose a couple shoot around corners, but ...
So lay out your parameters. A good gun smith can do wonders as long as he has a good base to work from, lots of people build up 1911's starting with caspian parts, and other manufacturers, you need to give more detail.
But in short, I don't think that 2000 dollars buys you a much tighter group than 1000 dollars. It may buy you a tighter group than 500 dollars, but not by much...
I am not a good enough shooter myself to say, but I suspect that:
o) Almost any non-bottom-of-the-barrel 1911 is more accurate than most shooters ever will be.
o) There are supposedly accuracy advantages to bushingless barrel systems, which seem to be on the more high-end guns.
o) I don't have the mags stacked in front of me, but I suspect 1" groups at 25 yards from a 1911 is pretty much doable by any medium or higher priced 1911 with good quality target ammo
o) There are exceptional mid-range guns that just happen to be really tight and shoot great, and I suspect there are top-range guns that aren't fitted as well as they should be, and won't shoot tight no matter what.
o) I do believe that STI offers an accuracy guarantee on their target grade pistols, which is probably where you should look. I am not aware of any accuracy guarantee on any other brand, but that doesn't mean they don't, only that I don't know it.
You didn't mention if you were referring to self-defense, or really only plinking/target shooting. I think the high-end STI's have like a 6" barrel, ported, compensated, etc, that would make carrying it tricky as all get out...
Others who know more will have to take it from here, as I am at the limit of my knowledge of things 1911...
o) Almost any non-bottom-of-the-barrel 1911 is more accurate than most shooters ever will be.
o) There are supposedly accuracy advantages to bushingless barrel systems, which seem to be on the more high-end guns.
o) I don't have the mags stacked in front of me, but I suspect 1" groups at 25 yards from a 1911 is pretty much doable by any medium or higher priced 1911 with good quality target ammo
o) There are exceptional mid-range guns that just happen to be really tight and shoot great, and I suspect there are top-range guns that aren't fitted as well as they should be, and won't shoot tight no matter what.
o) I do believe that STI offers an accuracy guarantee on their target grade pistols, which is probably where you should look. I am not aware of any accuracy guarantee on any other brand, but that doesn't mean they don't, only that I don't know it.
You didn't mention if you were referring to self-defense, or really only plinking/target shooting. I think the high-end STI's have like a 6" barrel, ported, compensated, etc, that would make carrying it tricky as all get out...
Others who know more will have to take it from here, as I am at the limit of my knowledge of things 1911...
Chuck R.
Member
conan,
Les Baer's standard guarantee is 3" at 50 yards. If that's not good enough, for a few dollars more you can get the optional 1.5" at 50 yard guarantee.
Chuck
Les Baer's standard guarantee is 3" at 50 yards. If that's not good enough, for a few dollars more you can get the optional 1.5" at 50 yard guarantee.
Chuck
BullfrogKen
Moderator Emeritus
If you are in fact skilled enough to keep your shots at 1" at 25 yards, you should buy the most accurate handgun you can find for your target shooting interests.
GreenFurniture
Member
I've owned and shot just about every quality 1911 produced.
From my experience Ed Brown 1911s are far above and beyond Wilson, Baer, Nighthawk, STI and others.
Tight groups, endless reliability, excellent value retention and very comfortable to both carry and shoot.
From my experience Ed Brown 1911s are far above and beyond Wilson, Baer, Nighthawk, STI and others.
Tight groups, endless reliability, excellent value retention and very comfortable to both carry and shoot.
the pistolero
Member
Why?
Well, before you plunk down 3k for an EB, enjoy:
http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=24880&page=1&pp=10
http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=24880&page=1&pp=10
Extremist
Member
Les Baer Premier II or SW1911PC Melonite
These are two superb 1911s and I own both of them. The SW1911 Performance Center black melonite finish gun is executed flawlessly. It is very accurate and beautiful to boot.
I just acquired a Les Baer Premier II with the tactical package. I also have a couple of Les Baer TRS. They are also flawlessly executed.
Either of these can be had for around $1500-1600. They are in my opinion the best out there in this price range.
James
These are two superb 1911s and I own both of them. The SW1911 Performance Center black melonite finish gun is executed flawlessly. It is very accurate and beautiful to boot.
I just acquired a Les Baer Premier II with the tactical package. I also have a couple of Les Baer TRS. They are also flawlessly executed.
Either of these can be had for around $1500-1600. They are in my opinion the best out there in this price range.
James
I was hunting for a LW commander for awhile and was pretty set on a scandium smith.
I had looked at a few and wasn't super impressed with fit and finish, the triggers seemed loose in frame and some minor details. Probably nothing that would effect function. Cost- 800 or so.
Got a Les Baer Concept X off this board for a little less than 1200. Well worth a few hundred extra bucks, I'll never sell it, so what's a few hundred over the next 30-50 years. It also had a few features that I prefered, like no forward cocking serrations, and some checkering. The stainless slide is pretty well polished and better looking than that of the S+W.
In my hands function is probably about the same.
As for Ed Brown, I am sure they are nice but I would have a hard time carrying a 3K dollar gun.
Eventually I may get a TRS for IPSC stuff, I have a Kimber Classic Target right now.
I think the Yo-Bo types of things are beginning to move beyond a gun to carry/use/shoot and move in to the realm of art, although functional art.
My advice, think hard about what features you really want and find the pistols that have them. Look at them and decide which you want, then save for the one you really want. If it's what you really want, it's worth it. If you get what you want you'll keep it longer. What really becomes expensive is buying and selling guns multiple times trying to find what you want.
I had looked at a few and wasn't super impressed with fit and finish, the triggers seemed loose in frame and some minor details. Probably nothing that would effect function. Cost- 800 or so.
Got a Les Baer Concept X off this board for a little less than 1200. Well worth a few hundred extra bucks, I'll never sell it, so what's a few hundred over the next 30-50 years. It also had a few features that I prefered, like no forward cocking serrations, and some checkering. The stainless slide is pretty well polished and better looking than that of the S+W.
In my hands function is probably about the same.
As for Ed Brown, I am sure they are nice but I would have a hard time carrying a 3K dollar gun.
Eventually I may get a TRS for IPSC stuff, I have a Kimber Classic Target right now.
I think the Yo-Bo types of things are beginning to move beyond a gun to carry/use/shoot and move in to the realm of art, although functional art.
My advice, think hard about what features you really want and find the pistols that have them. Look at them and decide which you want, then save for the one you really want. If it's what you really want, it's worth it. If you get what you want you'll keep it longer. What really becomes expensive is buying and selling guns multiple times trying to find what you want.
Harold Mayo
Member
The poster on that other forum with the complaint really didn't seem to understand what was going on in the first place. More of a troll than anything, if you ask me.
If he doesn't have enough knowledge to change out a guide rod himself, I don't really think that he has much business talking about guys who have been in the 1911 building business for decades.
While my personal experience with Ed Brown himself has not been all that good (he came across exactly as one of the posters on that other forum stated), I've never seen one of his guns that had problems. You almost NEVER see EB pistols on the secondary market. You OFTEN see Wilson and Baer pistols on the secondary market. Not saying that Brown is better (and you have to look at the number of pistols each company puts out), but you just never see used ones for sale and that forum is the first where I've ever heard of multiple people complaining, too.
If he doesn't have enough knowledge to change out a guide rod himself, I don't really think that he has much business talking about guys who have been in the 1911 building business for decades.
While my personal experience with Ed Brown himself has not been all that good (he came across exactly as one of the posters on that other forum stated), I've never seen one of his guns that had problems. You almost NEVER see EB pistols on the secondary market. You OFTEN see Wilson and Baer pistols on the secondary market. Not saying that Brown is better (and you have to look at the number of pistols each company puts out), but you just never see used ones for sale and that forum is the first where I've ever heard of multiple people complaining, too.
As far as Ed's personality, I have not met him, but have dealt with him several times as we had customers ordering in guns from him. He does not have the time to listen or talk to all the mall ninja's who call him and want to endlessly discuss the dream 45 they are never going to buy because working at walmart as loss protection will never pay enough to buy the thing.
When we called he was not rude, just short, and he said he had much to do, chit chat was not on his agenda. We gave him the info he needed and forwarded a copy of the stores FFL and he was very clear on times and deadlines. I would say he was utterly professional, and yet not overly social, which I fully understand.
After the second gun deal went thru with no hitches, He dealt with us a bit more relaxed and was always very attentive to detail. When one of the guns had a problem, It was out and back in just a few days. The gun was fixed totally and with a hand written note explaining the issue and the cure.
For this fact alone, I would deal with his firm again.
I was not around when Nighthawk started, although We did do some Wilson guns when those guys were still there. We had one problem with a Wilson gun that left a bad taste in all our mouths and we decided to steer more business to Brown or Heinie. EGW is another place that IF i had a good gun and wanted to go to town on, I would talk to, they seem to keep the turnaround down, and are cost effective.
In all the 1911 pattern guns there are many places for a gunsmith to ply his trade. Most do not remember that the weapon was meant to be a 5 inch gun at 25 or so yards. That it was expected that most of its uses would be in trenches or at the parapets defending against storming troops at bad breath ranges. The very fact that people can make 1 inch at 50 yards guns out of the platform is a testament to JMB.
It however, takes a great deal of understanding to make the 1911 into a 1 inch at 25 yard gun that will work 100.00% of the time, with no bobbles, no malf's of any kind. I would say that if you can accept a 2" at 25 yard gun that runs 100% of the time, you can cut your costs by more than half.
There are a great many Good smiths out there, working on 1911's, there are some real artists, as well, and some genius's who have made the step to the top.
I have an old Pachmayr and an old Kings gun works 1911 complete with aS&W K frame rear sight. Both are very accurate, both are exceedingly reliable when fed the proper ammo. The Pachmayr was made up as as duty gun, about a 3 inch at 25 yard gun, superb trigger, very crisp and reliable safety, and absolutely will not ever fail shooting ball ammo. That was the desired set up and it was all that was needed. The Kings was set up to shoot wadcutters, it started as a national match and moved on from there. It will only function on SWC's loaded to 830 or so feet per second. load it hotter, and baulks at feeding, Load it slower, and they do not eject cleanly, but run the right loads and it just runs like a watch. The feed lips and ramp is cut so perfectly that it will load empty cases.
as good as either of these are, they are very tightly tied to really only one load. one likes Duty ball, the other, Match SWC loads. A Brown or a STI or a Evo gun works will eat anything
Yeah they are worth the money in the way that if you look and enjoy the level of workmanship, the thought nad the performance they are wonderful investments.
When we called he was not rude, just short, and he said he had much to do, chit chat was not on his agenda. We gave him the info he needed and forwarded a copy of the stores FFL and he was very clear on times and deadlines. I would say he was utterly professional, and yet not overly social, which I fully understand.
After the second gun deal went thru with no hitches, He dealt with us a bit more relaxed and was always very attentive to detail. When one of the guns had a problem, It was out and back in just a few days. The gun was fixed totally and with a hand written note explaining the issue and the cure.
For this fact alone, I would deal with his firm again.
I was not around when Nighthawk started, although We did do some Wilson guns when those guys were still there. We had one problem with a Wilson gun that left a bad taste in all our mouths and we decided to steer more business to Brown or Heinie. EGW is another place that IF i had a good gun and wanted to go to town on, I would talk to, they seem to keep the turnaround down, and are cost effective.
In all the 1911 pattern guns there are many places for a gunsmith to ply his trade. Most do not remember that the weapon was meant to be a 5 inch gun at 25 or so yards. That it was expected that most of its uses would be in trenches or at the parapets defending against storming troops at bad breath ranges. The very fact that people can make 1 inch at 50 yards guns out of the platform is a testament to JMB.
It however, takes a great deal of understanding to make the 1911 into a 1 inch at 25 yard gun that will work 100.00% of the time, with no bobbles, no malf's of any kind. I would say that if you can accept a 2" at 25 yard gun that runs 100% of the time, you can cut your costs by more than half.
There are a great many Good smiths out there, working on 1911's, there are some real artists, as well, and some genius's who have made the step to the top.
I have an old Pachmayr and an old Kings gun works 1911 complete with aS&W K frame rear sight. Both are very accurate, both are exceedingly reliable when fed the proper ammo. The Pachmayr was made up as as duty gun, about a 3 inch at 25 yard gun, superb trigger, very crisp and reliable safety, and absolutely will not ever fail shooting ball ammo. That was the desired set up and it was all that was needed. The Kings was set up to shoot wadcutters, it started as a national match and moved on from there. It will only function on SWC's loaded to 830 or so feet per second. load it hotter, and baulks at feeding, Load it slower, and they do not eject cleanly, but run the right loads and it just runs like a watch. The feed lips and ramp is cut so perfectly that it will load empty cases.
as good as either of these are, they are very tightly tied to really only one load. one likes Duty ball, the other, Match SWC loads. A Brown or a STI or a Evo gun works will eat anything
Yeah they are worth the money in the way that if you look and enjoy the level of workmanship, the thought nad the performance they are wonderful investments.
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