High Fences

[Art Eatman]

First off, this is about large-area ranches, commonly ten to twenty thousand acres and even more. Not little pens. A whitetail's home territory is rarely even a full thousand acres; commonly less. It's a function of food and water. Internal high fencing--if any--rarely confines less than two or three thousand acres.

The purpose of the high fence is to keep whitetail deer out of a controlled area. Not keep deer in. Part of the high fence deal is improvement of the pasture and the water supply. Habitat improvement. Without the high fence, deer from the surrounding area would yell out, "Yum! Smorgasbord!" and overload the habitat in a heartbeat.

Most of these ranches in Texas are in south Texas, in the "brasada" or brush country. Multitudes of impenetrable thickets of cactus and mesquite. Short-range visibility in gently rolling country. Various cleared areas of pasture for open-country herbs and forbs.

Anybody who thinks that walking hunting through that sort of vegetation is a reasonable method is fooling himself. It can be done, of course, but above-average skill is required as is plenty of free time to do the hunting. Of all hunters in today's America, a relative few have either the skill or the time. I'm lucky; I started in with being a brush bunny when I was about seven years old. Later on, in my serious hunting years, I had the free time.

I've done the walking hunting thing in brush country. Texas deer season ended at New Year's. I generally got the last cactus out of my legs along about March; it finally festers out. Catclaw acacia just leaves little fine-line scars, but they're all healed up by the end of January or thereabouts.

So, yeah, the high-rollers hunt on these high-dollar ranches. Gotta be high-dollar because of the investment cost. They cater to folks with money but who lack the time--which I've seen in many other forms of recreation. It's one of the reasons for commercial aviation, I've noticed. And, odds, are, they don't like dealing with cactus festerings.

So it's not my style, but it gives folks a chance to hunt and that, to me, is what's important.

Commentary about breeding programs and all that is for another thread, if somebody has any personal knowledge of that.

 

[RevGeo]

I was stationed in Texas for a while when I was in the Air Force back in the early 70s. I pretty much hated it because of the lack of public land. Coming from the Pacific NW I was used to having plenty of national forest, state and BLM land on which to hunt and fish. It seemed strange to be surrounded by all that wide open space that was totally inaccesible - miles and miles of fenced off land. So I can understand why so many folks pay large amounts of money to hunt on private ranches down there. There's nowhere else to go.
There's a lot of negativity on the 'net about high fence ranches in Texas, but unless you have been there you don't understand the difficulty of finding a place to hunt (or fish from the bank). Like Art I'm glad there are some places there for folks to hunt. If they can afford it.

By the way, when I was up for transfer the personnel Sgt. asked me if I had any preference as to where I wanted to go. I said 'Just get me the hell out of Texas!' When I got my orders they were for Cannon AFB, New Mexico - about 16 miles from the Texas border. Funny guy, that personnel Sgt.
Fortunately New Mexico has plenty of public land.

George

 

[esheato]

RevGeo,

I couldn't have said it better.

As far as Tx goes, it's not quite my cup of tea. I live in what's considered W. Texas, and all I see is open property, but unless you know someone or pay the lease fees, you don't get to play.

As a military transplant, I don't know anyone and the multi-thousand leases aren't in my current budget, so I haven't hunted.

I do notice that the locals, and people with connections are happy to move out here because they have plenty of recreation to occupy them. C'est la vie.

As far as the high fences, I don't have a problem. Like Art, any hunting is positive for gun owners and sportsmen alike.

Ed

 

[Art Eatman]

Drifting off to the issue of access, the Wildlife folks have done a pretty good job of getting privately owned lands opened up to low-fee access. Lots of information available, but I'm not where I can do other than a Google search for Texas Parks & Wildlife Commission--so can you.

 

[kyle1974]

I hunt and work part time as a guide on a group of ranches that run the full spectrum... Low fence, high fence with native genetics and high fence with released deer.

I can say that as far as how easy it is to shoot any deer, it's all the same. I could go shoot "a deer" on any of the ranches. Of course of I want to shoot a larger deer, the odds increase on the high fence sections. I primarily bowhunt on the low fence ranch, but that's because I'm chasing something in particular. I have been busted by deer on the high fence, and they have gotten away from me, and are still walking. One guy was busted by a deer on the high fence 3 years ago, and we didn't see the deer at all for almost a year afterwards.

The high fence allows you to be more flexible to let deer walk, rather than shoot them before they are at full potential. We lose deer to the neighbors on the low fence place...it's just the way it goes.

As for the breeding and release of deer, it's not for everyone. The typical hunter is usually a client of a vendor who is entertaining their customers. It's really no different than all the exotic hunting. The deer out of the pens will still run if they see you, but they are not as spooky as a native deer for certain. It is what it is. People who want to shoot a big deer can go do it. I've had people in their 70's who have a lifelong dream of shooting a big deer, and they can do it. Maybe they don't "work for it" by climbing up a mountain for 18 days.... But maybe they "worked for it" by working 60 or 70 hours a week throughout their career and have the money to do a hunt like this. I really hate the division that some people do where they determine what IS an what is NOT hunting. It's all different, and as long as its legal people should be able to do what they want.

 

[Rembrandt]

I bow hunted sheep in Texas in high fences, it was OK but not what I was use to. It's really a commercial livestock operation for the hunter who has little time and wants a guaranteed animal for the money spent. Involved baiting, dumping out grain and wait to see what showed up. Got down to horn size and how much you wanted to pay. It serves a purpose and function for those who may not have access to land or the time to invest in hunting.

 

[ricebasher302]

My distaste of high-fence hunting stems from the fact that, sometimes, animals harvested under these conditions may be "bragged up" or compard to those that haven't. For those of us who work hard for our trophies on public land or "low-fence" private tracts, it is dishartening to be having a conversation about a nice buck or bull we took, only for some guy to whip out his i-phone and show everyone pictures of his 400-inch bull or 210-inch whitetail he took on a fence ranch. Sure, I love to see trophies like these, but they don't impress me as a hunter. It's not about jealousy, because I love the challenge of hunting the way I do, and because I have a once-in-a-lifetime whitetail on my wall already. I just think that having to choose which giant buck to shoot wouldn't be that much fun and fortunately B&C agrees with me on this topic.

In addition, I generally oppose it, because it promotes the "business" of hunting and makes it harder and harder to find place to hunt where you're not charged for the privelige. Thanks to "canned hunts," every landowner and their dog now thinks he can make a few dollars on a guy like me who has already paid the state for the permit to hunt the animal that technically already belongs to him, but is now taxed yet again to enter the land that the animal resides on.

 

[kyle1974]

Yeah....that huge over riding evil of landowner rights is something, isn't it?

What I don't understand about this common argument, is how more of something (big deer), somehow violates the law of supply and demand, and makes that thing more expensive.

Any idea how that works? I'd love to manufacture something and cause an increase in value for
It.

 

[BKDinTexas]

I have no problem with high fence operations in general. I am a firm believer in private property rights. The problem I have is high fence ranches in Texas have captured a state resource (whitetail deer), and confined it for their exclusive use and profit. Essentially, stealing a state resource by confining it.

My solution would be this. You high fence your place, you have two options. You pay to trap the deer and get them released on unfenced or public land. Then you restock with your deer that are exclusively yours to do with what you will. OR, you have TPWD come out and do a count. You pay a fee to TPWD for the estimated deer herd on your high fenced property. Those deer then become yours to do whatever you want with. No regulations, no closed season, no bag limit, etc. Either way I believe is fair.

Hunting deer in Texas has pretty much priced itself out of the market for the average working joe, unless you are really dedicated to spending a large part of your budget on it. I would like to see TPWD devote more funds to open up land to public hunting, be it open range or low cost draw type hunting. It's a shame when I can go out of state and hunt cheaper than I can hunt here in my own state. But that's just the free market, and not likely to change.

 

[kyle1974]

Where in the legal statute in Texas does it clearly state who owns the native animals? Just because the state regulates something doesn't mean they own it.

The deer are there regardless of a fence or not.

 

[ricebasher302]

Nowhere did I say that the landowner doesn't have the right to as he/she pleases. I simply choose not to pay twice for the opportunity to hunt, and I'll go elsewhere to avoid it. I believe hunting should remain a tradition, not an industry.

I also did not say that people shouldn't hunt on high-fence ranches, but I don't think that that kind of hunting is the same as hunting publicly-managed herds.

I also recognize that there are areas where public land offering hunting opportunity is virtually nonexistant, so opinions will vary as a result.

 

[BKDinTexas]

Well Kyle, if you think whitetail aren't a public resource, get caught killing one illegally and see how much the State of Texas charges you. Whitetail deer are a state resource that belong to the public at large. That's why they are called "wildlife resources" by TPWD.

That's why there are no closed seasons or bag limits on exotics. They never were native animals, and are "owned" by a private individual (unless they get away and become free range). You won't being paying fines to the State by killing exotics on a Texas ranch in July, but you will if you kill a whitetail...

 

[kyle1974]

If I kill a person I will also get in trouble....fines, prison time,
Etc. Does that mean humans are a public resource?

On the other side of your argument...try shooting a deer without permission on someone else's land and see what the fines are for trespassing and poaching on private property.


As far as exotics go, there are regulations required on certain ones, so it's not relevant whether or not they're native.

 

[KodiakBeer]

Whitetail deer are a state resource that belong to the public at large. That's why they are called "wildlife resources" by TPWD.

That may be technically correct, but since there are almost no public lands in texas, where is the public supposed to harvest this resource?

 

[MCgunner]

Considering the number of people in the eastern half of Texas, it's a good thing we don't have a lot of open access land. Probably have to draw for a permit or some asinine thing like they do for elk most places, now. We do have some public land and some of that is hard to get to, requires boats and such, at least the stuff down here. I hunt a huge WMA for waterfowl and one unit opens in Feb/March for hogs buckshot only. There's land around, 48 dollars a year and you get booklets with maps and rules. Not a lot of great whitetail hunting, but not all hunting is about whitetail, ya know. Actually, whitetail sorta bore me. I like wing shooting, more action, less nose picking. Squirrel hunting is something I love to do and East Texas has some fantastic squirrel hunting/habitat open to the public, much of it national forests that cost nothing for access, some is WMA of course.

No, you ain't gonna find much hill country land for whitetail hunting that''s public. If I wanna hunt there, I'll pay for the privilege or not go. there's day hunts all over not all annual leases. Lots of good hog hunting for not a lot of money, too, if you don't have access to hogs. I do, don't really wanna go spend money to hunt 'em, just sayin'....

Now, to the OP content, one thing I marvel at when I drive by a huge high fence ranch is what it must cost to build and maintain those fences. WOW, it is not much wonder between that cost and the cost of the management programs they do and the breeding and whatever they do that it costs so much to hunt whitetail on those places. It's a big bucks operation so they charge the big bucks for the big bucks (couldn't resist ). The alternative I took years ago was to buy my own little piece of Texas heaven and, by golly, lookin' back on it, I have gotten my money's worth in spades just in the memories. I'm lookin' to move, not sure I'll be able to sell the place any time soon due to market conditions at the moment, but if I don't, I don't really care THAT much. I might spend some money on improvements down there in a year or two, a tank for one. I've always wanted a tank on the place. I'm also thinkin' an all weather road with a pad for my travel trailer in hunting season. That won't be cheap, about 1/2 a mile of road. Son-in-law was on leave from Afghanistan, went back yesterday, wants to fence it and put a few cows on it. I might do that just for the ag exception if he wants to mess with it. It might be fun to play rancher so long as I don't have to work at it TOO much, LOL! It's hunting I bought it for and it's worth the taxes considering what leases here cost now days. Texas is a great place for an outdoorsman to own land and there's enough other places and things to hunt on the mid/lower coast that i don't get bored with it all. I really love living and hunting here, personally, but then I'm born and raised here, don't know much else.

And, besides, I have a trailer now and New Mexico ain't that far away. I do love it out there. Have Hawken, will travel.

 

[kyle1974]

Dig that tank mcgunner... Acreage covered by water in Texas is worth much more than dry land.

 

[MCgunner]

Well, if it had a tank, I would have my own private duck hunting. I get ducks over me all season coming off Matagorda Island and the bays flying in to the feeding areas, rice fields, ponds. When we have a wet year (yeah, what's that?) down there, the back is low and holds knee to waste deep water anyway even without a tank and ducks drop in there. If I had a tank, i'd plant some duck food and manage it for the ducks. It'd also keep the hogs and deer happy and around more if it held water in dry years. Most of the tanks down there right now are bone dry, though. We NEED RAIN, DANGIT! We didn't get any of that 5" Houston got the other day. THAT'S what we need.

 

[kyle1974]

Yeah, that rain was pretty nice. Lake Conroe missed a lot of it too though, they needed it bad up there.

 

[finnwolf64]

So someone owns 10,000 to 20,000 acres privately. Isn't it up to that person to decide what they want to do with their parcel of land, so long as its within the law. Whether they run cattle, do cropping or put up high fences & run as a game ranch - surely it is the owners right & decision. They could even put up high fences & leave the place a game reserve. Since the place is privately owned its not taking away hunters rights if they decide to run a high fence game ranch, as they already had the rights to refuse permission to those wanting to hunt the land in the first place.
Game ranches vary hugely in how they operate, in size, terrain, game ,accommodation & cost. It is up to the individual hunter/shooter to research any game ranch they might contemplate visiting to see if it meets their criteria .

 

[d2wing]

It's nice to have public hunting. People in this area would resent the idea of privileged classes unlike other regions where there distinct classes of people. Also people that play by different rules are considered of lower character.
Hunters here generally take pride in the hunt part of hunting. Hunting means findIng and if you know where they are and they are confined you aren't so much hunting as culling livestock. That is a regional difference. The culture of Texas seems to be more related to the old European system of privileged land owners that control everything including hunting. We live in the same country but developed very differently.
If I lived in Texas would have to adapt just the same. Before I visited Texas I images that much of it was open range. I was surprised to see it all private fenced land. I hope it does't come to that here. Some guys are pushing for baiting here. That's a very bad road to start down because it leads to loss of public access just like Texas.

 

[MCgunner]

Since the place is privately owned its not taking away hunters rights if they decide to run a high fence game ranch, as they already had the rights to refuse permission to those wanting to hunt the land in the first place.

Near me, the Powderhorn was bought, high fenced, and set up by an eccentric rich easterner as sort of a huge zoo, stocked with exotics. It was set up as a self sufficient trust and in his will, he forbade ever allowing hunting on it. To this day, it's a preserve as well as working cattle ranch. It's poached occasionally, but no one is allowed there legally, and the wardens work with the ranch hands/fence riders to enforce that hunting ban. I supposed the poachers don't think it's right, but then, if they're caught, they can do prison time. I hope it's worth it to them.

Hunters here generally take pride in the hunt part of hunting. Hunting means findIng and if you know where they are and they are confined you aren't so much hunting as culling livestock. That is a regional difference.

There are HUGE tracts of land here that are high fenced. It is as much open range as anything in the west, far as whitetail deer go. The hunting IS easier in that the population is strictly managed and controlled and the game populations are near carrying capacity on the better ranches, but it's hunting non-the-less. If you haven't done it, how are you such an expert?

On many of these places, you'll be with a guide. You will be allowed whatever you've paid for if you can get a shot at it. It might be a management cull, it might be a trophy you're lookin' for, it might be doe culls. There are a variety of types of hunts as well as ranches to choose from.

 

[d2wing]

Things have changed here since I started hunting. Posted land was rare. It wasn't very neighborly. But in the 80's that all changed. Now it's mostly posted and laws are much stronger about it. Private land is pretty much posted and hunting rights are leased. Even paper company forests are divided into leased hunting areas. It's hard to find a place in the woods where you can just sit and not be bothered. I miss those days.

 

[kyle1974]

I find it strange that a group of people who you would think have conservative values would be so liberal minded about these things...

Down with the man

Hunting is a rich mans sport...

I miss the days where people went out and made it happen, instead of complaining about being "kept down" by "the man".

 

[d2wing]

You honestly can't don't think paying a guide to shoot a deer you chose the same as hunting wild deer on public land. Would you hunt if you did not know if you would even see a deer.
I am not saying it is wrong in Texas, it is now being done here as well. I see it as a difference. I suppose it is a matter of degrees to some people. What part of the hunt gives you satisfaction? That you can find what a man of lessor skilled hunter can't or shooting a big deer that requires no skill to find? Not that either is wrong, but can you see the difference in viewpoint. Others I enjoy it either way but I take more pride in the hunt part. Shooting a deer is a thrill in itself but only you know what the hunt as a whole means.

 

[MCgunner]

Would you hunt if you did not know if you would even see a deer.

I do it all the time and I'm in Texas. Actually, it's why I prefer wing shooting to deer/hog hunting....ACTION. Only so much bordom I can take in the name of the sport. At some point, patience hell, I wanna KILL something. Ducks, doves, geese, these are my favorite game. Cleaning 'em's less a PITA, too. I have a hog trap for the meat.

I miss the days where people went out and made it happen, instead of complaining about being "kept down" by "the man".

Amen