High Road Ethics Question

[taliv]

i always disclose stuff, and since i wear my guns out, there's usually a lot to disclose.

but people are crazy. an anecdote: long time ago, i sold a 16" AR15 for parts to a gunsmith. I made sure he knew that it was worn out, and by worn out, i mean, the barrel was keyholing and it would eat no-go gages. and my price to him reflected that. to my surprise, he sold it at a huge profit as a complete gun to someone else, and that person later told me it was the most accurate gun he had shot.

ethically, my conscience is clean on that, but i'm more cautious now.

 

[Riomouse911]

Since I can’t sell FTF here, nor do I sell on GB, all of the ones I’ve sent packing were sold on consignment at a LGS.

A couple guns I have had with issues went that way. I told my friends behind the counter about the issues I had and they did keep a note page with the remarks I made about the gun or issues. I was told on consignment guns they sold the notes went with the sellers paperwork so they could let a buyer know if there was anything to disclose.

But, since I never met any of the buyers I can’t honestly say whether or not they relayed my issues or descriptions to the buyer.

I will say I’ve bought four guns off GB that were disappointing. I feel that they all had issues before they were sold, but these weren’t disclosed.

The first was an 1100 20 GA that wouldn’t cycle until I replaced the rubber O ring and turned the gas rings the right way (easy fix!), two are .22 rimfire revolvers (Very nice Smith 48 and Dan Wesson .22s) that seized up solid after a few dozen shots and have needed repairs. The last gun had crummy pictures and was advertised by the seller (A Houston area pawn shop) as a 2” model 10 .”38 Spl.” that was actually a repolised/reblued and hogged out .38 S&W victory Model. This I made right by replacing the cylinder with a real .38 Spl. cylinder, had it fitted and timed, and sold it “as is” at the same consignment store. I lost at least $100 bucks on that lemon.

Stay safe.

 

[DeepSouth]

What is ethically acceptable to disclose to a buyer,

what would you want disclosed to you if you were the buyer? Do that.


The simplicity of the golden rule.
“Do to others as you would have them do to you.”

 

[wiscoaster]

I've been buying used guns long enough to know up front that sellers lie and will say just about anything to get rid of their POS gun that doesn't work for them. I take that into consideration when I'm looking at a used gun. It's great that many on this board are upright guys/gals, but definitely not the norm. ...

....Life is too short to scam other folks, and I would not be good at it anyway. Who needs enemies?

... and I think that life is also too short to treat every seller as a lying, cheating scammer. Basically I prefer to believe the best of other people and I prefer to trust them to be honest and above board with me. I like to think most people are mostly honest most of the time. I wouldn't knowingly allow myself to be scammed - that would be stupid - but if I do get scammed, so be it. My soul is at peace with that, and their scam is on their soul, if they care about such things.

 

[gotboostvr]

I've bought a few guns with issues, both known and unknown.

One, a M19-5 that the owner told me up front there was "something" wrong with it. Being we were pretty close to each other, I figured I'd meet up and see if I thought it'd be something I could undertake on my own.

The trigger wouldn't reset and it felt real sluggish. I figured (and told him) it was probably just the trigger return spring. He still wanted to make the deal and sure enough when I popped the side plate open and checked, the spring had been clipped. Easy fix.

Another one, a Springfield Loaded Stainless Champion was sold as a "great shooter, super accurate" and was not. Poorly fit barrel, horrible groups. Springfield took care of me and even set it up with a fresh set of night sights free of charge even when I disclosed I was not the original owner. Paid shipping too.

 

[jmr40]

I used to do a lot of buying/selling/trading, in recent years not so much. I can't recall ever selling or trading a truly defective gun. Some just didn't live up to my expectations, weren't as accurate as I'd hoped it would be or something like that. I've had a couple that did have issues that were returned to the factory to be repaired or replaced in one case.

But I couldn't unload a known lemon on someone. If I had a problem gun I'd advise buyers of any issues. When I've sold rifles that weren't as accurate as I'd hoped for I've told the buyer exactly that and have provided information as accurately as possible to describe the accuracy potential. I've even had typical targets to show buyers what to expect. I've found that an awful lot of rifle buyers are quite pleased with accuracy that wasn't acceptable to me.

 

[BigBore44]

I think it’s a shame that this question even needs to be asked.

 

[HoploDad]

Have met and worked with people who claim to be ethical in their personal lives, but in their jobs they say, "It's business" to justify cheating people. I'll remember them as cheaters for all time. No skin off their nose, but I'd prefer to not be remembered that way.

 

[wcwhitey]

Long time ago, 1990. I had a S&W Model 65 3" that I could not get my cash out fast enough to buy. Seller who I knew said he just didn't shoot it well. He was right, nobody could shoot it well. I was a fair revolver shooter could not get less than a 6" group at 10 yards no matter what ammo I used. I brought it to a gunsmith friend of mine who looked at it, could not find a problem with it. I sent it back to S&W they said it was fine. Mechanically, lockup, rifling, everything looked and seemed fine. Had friends who were great shooters look at me and say, yea something is wrong with this one. Sold it for double full discloser saying that the gun just does not seem to shoot well. I was completely honest but I could not point to one manufacturing flaw in the gun.

 

[AMraider]

I disclose everything. Something about an unhappy buyer (now with a gun) bothers me.

 

[Sistema1927]

Disclose the faults, price accordingly, make sure that the buyer understands, and tell him that it is now his problem, no returns.

 

[1911 guy]

I'm repeating what a lot of people have already said. If it's my opinion of something, shut up and let the buyer have his own opinion. If it's an actual problem, say something.

 

[gunlaw]

Kind of like selling a used car. Trade it in and forgery about it. Buyer beware.

 

[Steve S.]

Mankind is a rationalizing animal; as such, he is incapable of telling the truth all of the time - a man can talk himself into anything. In these social media times especially, people will communicate what the others want to hear - we have a massive government built on that very simple principle. Such as this thread, how many are going to type that they cheat the hell out of people when they can - not in these times and not on this format.

 

[giggitygiggity]

On selling a gun ... in which you have no confidence.
Let's set some parameters on the question. I'm not talking about intentionally trying to jam somebody by selling them a defective gun. That's wrong. And I'm not talking about buying a gun and expecting every single ding, doink, or scratch be pointed out. The question is caveat emptor vis a vis hiding known problems.

You have a (in your mind) dog. Can't get it to shoot accurately with anything. Or has been factory returned and a problem or fault corrected. I don't know what else ...I've heard about clocked barrel. A semiauto that won't feed. Sights can't be adjusted enough to make POA=POI. Whatever. Nothing dangerous known.

What is ethically acceptable to disclose to a buyer, what is ethically expected from a seller.
Corollary: what is reasonably expected as to allowing test firing, or not. Sale contingent upon test fire? These days that could cost seller $$ in ammunition, range trip, liability, etc. Obviously online/auction is a different situation. As is an honest "I just don't need/want/shoot it anymore."

-jb, as both a buyer and potential seller

Disclose all known issues. It will save time, money, and stress in the long run if you consider that you can expect a disappointed buyer to raise all kinds of grief. If I received a gun and it had issues that weren’t disclosed, I would demand the buyer to either fix the issues or take the gun back at no expense to me (ie pay all transfer fees, shipping etc).

The good thing about guns is that they are machines and problems can generally be identified and addressed, especially with current productions.

 

[Odd Job]

For me it falls into two categories:

1) Cosmetic damage
2) Functional damage

On a used gun the buyer can expect some cosmetic damage (as long as the seller didn't specifically say there was no such damage). If nothing has been said about the condition of the gun cosmetically and the buyer hasn't asked or checked prior to the sale then that's an acceptable deficit in my opinion.

Functional is different.
Ethically, for me, it is unacceptable to sell a firearm which has a functional problem that I know about without advising the buyer first.

For example, this is what I did when I sold my SIG522 rifle:

I'm selling my SIG522 Classic as spare parts, because it is not reliable when firing waxy rounds with a moderator. As you guys know, I fire 500 rounds a session for the moderator testing I am doing. This results in the rifle getting very dirty, very quickly. It has got to the point where I can't fire more than 200 rounds without cleaning it. The residues coat the barrel at the chamber end, and they coat the bolt face which means that I am getting an unacceptable number of failure to fire with Eley Sport and with RWS target Rifle, which are my chosen rounds for testing.

If the rifle is used without a moderator, and with CCI Mini-mag then it is okay. It works fine.

However, I am going to be brutally honest about this: taking into account the problems I have had with it whilst firing Eley, I regard this rifle as unreliable and the price will reflect that. I want £90 plus the costs of transferring it to your RFD.

This is the rifle in its original configuration (which is how I will sell it):

<Photo long removed from my image sharing platform>

Included with the rifle:

1) Original SIG SAUER case (which has scuff marks on the outside of the case since I have used it extensively to transport not only the SIG but other rifles also). The foam inside has two divots from the charging handle of the SIG and it has stains from cleaning fluids.

2) Original manual, cable lock and alternate thin butt pad and internal spacer for adjusting the extending butt-stock.

3) One new 10 round SIG magazine, boxed. This can be converted to a 15 round magazine by cutting off a plastic protrusion inside the magazine with a Dremel. I may have tested this mag with 10 rounds, I can't recall. But that's the most it will have had through it.

4) The Mueller Quick-Shot red dot sight as shown, with box and manual. Note that this sight is low quality and does not retain zero over time. I am only including it so you can at least shoot the rifle straight away. Once you have decided what sight to get, I suggest binning the Mueller. I didn't include the Mueller in the price.

5) One spare firing pin, manufactured by Peter Sarony (Armalon).

6) Two defective CMMG mags. These are 25 round mags but for reasons I can't fathom, they only work when loaded with 15 rounds or less. If you can't get them working, I suggest keeping the followers and springs as spares and binning the rest. I did not include those in the price.

7) One spare recoil guide rod and e-clip. These are the original parts which Garlands replaced back in 2012 when I was having feeding problems with the gun. Those problems have been resolved.

Note that this rifle did not come with any iron sights (that was normal for this Classic package at the time).
The barrel is threaded 1/2" x 28tpi and it will come with the factory A2-style flash hider.

I will be putting up another thread advertising various magazines and spares for the SIG522 for those who already have a SIG...

So, I didn't advertise scuffs along the charging groove or safety catch on the receiver. Those are to be expected and if the buyer wanted a used rifle without those he would need to ask questions specifically about that. However the rifle was in fact a dog when firing suppressed, and was not reliable and I advertised it as such. The guy who bought it got a good price for what it was, and with CCI Mini-mags it worked fine.

For me it is a question of integrity. I view the transaction in this way: would I feel screwed if I was the buyer?

 

[Bfh_auto]

Tell it like it is....is generally good advice in life. That’s what I’d do. Be totally honest “look mate, this things a dog. I can’t get it too shoot. I’ll sell it to you but I wanted you to know first.”

Edit: the Romanian trainer I bought from a guy was, as he called it, a piece of s*** he couldn’t get it to feed rounds no matter what he did. It’s become one of my favorite rifles because I loved researching the problem and tinkering with it. I got it fixed and it feeds like a dream now.

There’s someone out there looking for a dog of a rifle to tinker with.

I have one if those romanian trainers. Is a sweet rifle.

I try to disclose everything.
I've only traded two guns and sold 2.
One was bought because it wouldn't feed. I fixed it and sold it for the same price to a friend so his nephew could learn on a small 22.

 

[redneck2]

Kind of like selling a used car. Trade it in and forgery about it. Buyer beware

I traded a Jeep Cherokee with 195,000 to a dealer on a new car. I still told the dealer everything I thought needed fixed.

If I have a firearm that may be questionable, I inform the buyer and adjust the price to reflect accordingly.

You can’t buy integrity or a good reputation. You earn it. There was a reference above to Matthew 7:12. The merchants used to have two sets of balance weights, one for buying and one for selling. Might want to read that reference and see how it was viewed.

If you think you’re fooling everyone else, you’re only fooling yourself.

 

[lightman]

I would repair any broken gun that I intended to trade or disclose the problem before selling it. I've had to do this twice in my lifetime.

One was a beautiful Sako Varmint Rifle in 22-250. I literally did everything a person can do to a rifle to make it shoot and the best I ever could get was 1-1/2 inch groups. A guy looked at it and we agree on a price. I not only told him how it shot but explained that it was pretty poor for a varmint rifle.

Another was a Browning Hi-Power that was not reliable. I traded it off to the dealer that I bought it from. He knew about the problem because he had worked on it. I also reminded him of the problem.

Another was not gun related. I sold a Dodge truck that I had owned for several years. Everyone that looked at it ask about gas mileage and I told them 9 MPG. A guy finally decided that he could live with that.

Selling or trading this stuff would have been easier or faster if I had either lied or just not said anything. But thats just not the way that I roll.

 

[gunlaw]

I traded a Jeep Cherokee with 195,000 to a dealer on a new car. I still told the dealer everything I thought needed fixed.

If I have a firearm that may be questionable, I inform the buyer and adjust the price to reflect accordingly.

You can’t buy integrity or a good reputation. You earn it. There was a reference above to Matthew 7:12. The merchants used to have two sets of balance weights, one for buying and one for selling. Might want to read that reference and see how it was viewed.

If you think you’re fooling everyone else, you’re only fooling yourself.

 

[gunlaw]

I did not intend my post to insinuate deception. By trading to dealer that person can decide what to do with it. Might be worth fixing to him or it might get sold as a parts gun. Like many car dealers gun shops may give a token trade in amount to make a sale. Both parties happy.

 

[Agsalaska]

I think full disclosure is a very important part of our society. Not just guns but anything else you sell.

I always tell people anything I know and expect the same. I have never gone wrong buying or selling with that expectation.

 

[GJeffB]

[Whistles through his teeth]
Thank you, all. I didn't intend it to be a Bible study, or to make anybody sad for the question. Just an assessment of what should be expected to be disclosed to me vis a vis what I should be expected to disclose. Answered pretty thoroughly in the discussions of "in my opinion" as opposed to "I hope they don't figure out it's broken."

-jb, a good guy and certainly NO aspersions on Bible study

 

[lightman]

I'm impressed with you guys integrity.

 

[3Crows]

We all know what the definition of honesty and integrity is and is not. It is not like a former president trying to parce "is" or silliness like that.