History lessons and casting blame (National Gun Rights .orgs)

[Shadow 7D]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_Owners_Protection_Act
It's not ALL right however, it's a starting point
PLEASE realize what it repealed.
Now, to 'get this' it's claimed that the NRA sold out Machine Gun owners
Well... in a way they did. The Democratic chairman ILLEGALLY allowed a poison pill amendment to be attached to the bill.
He allowed the Hughes Amendment, when it failed the vote. So, when you get all bent out of shape, please make sure you know the facts surrounding, leading to, influencing the situation.

 

[barnbwt]

You'd think that after (what're we up to, now?) five-thousand years of conflict in the Middle East --that we have written record of-- we would realize that letting history older than a generation or two dictate rather than inform our politics, is not very productive.

Seriously; the only thing any past crime/mistake of the NRA (or anyone else, for that matter) is good for, is working to avoid the same pitfall in the future. Everyone who made the old mistake is dead, so why would we think the org is destined to repeat it if we watch their steps so they don't stumble (like we were supposed to do in the first place)?

I'd also argue strongly that by the time the Hughes Amendment was added --and how it was added-- the NRA had very few options left to correct it. The bill had already been approved in an earlier form (hence the amendment process) by the house, and it was headed for the senate as its last step. So close to the finish line, it is hard for those committed to its passage to tear up their 'hard' work and go home empty-handed, especially with what the FOPA bill was still offering the vast, vast majority of constituent gun owners. I'm sure the NRA lobbyists felt the same tug to just finish the damn thing and shove it across Reagan's desk, but I'll bet it was worse for those voting on it. Personally, I think criminal blame lies with Charlie Rangel, and a much larger portion of moral blame with Reagan than with congress; the reason the presidential veto lies at the end of the rainbow is to prevent these exact type of last-minute sleights-of-hand from tainting legislation. The ban-man of racially-motivated Californian open carry signed it nonetheless. The Hughes Amendment is correctly remembered as one of Reagan's less stellar accomplishments that complicates his legacy.

TCB

 

[TimSr]

Legislation is a complicated thing in that everything has somethng else attached to it, and both houses of congress have rules that allow the majority to skirt the rules.

I was very active in 2A politics in the 80's. The NRA made a lot of mistakes that still haunt us. I don't believe they ever sold anybody out. They always did their best to play the hand they were dealt, and sometimes they just had a losing hand. I saw them gag and support awful legislation as an alternative to even worse legislation. They re-wrote the ap ammo ban that they did not support, because congress wanted to ban ANY ammo that could pentrate common police armour. They begrudgingly supported NICS because congress wanted a national waiting period. The atmospere was different then. The news networks controlled information to the public, and the public was much more intolerant of the 2A than today. I give full credit for the machine gun ban portion of the FOPA of 1986 to Arlen Spector for trying to play both sides with procedure when this ban was gaveled in as a last minute add on.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Part of my issue on it was that it was never challenged as illegal

 

[Sunray]

Wikipedia isn't exactly an authoritative source of info for anything. Anybody with internet access can post anything they want there. Nobody checks for accuracy either.
"...never challenged as illegal..." Costs money. Nobody has ever challenged the ATF's right to make law by regulation for the same reason.

 

[Snyper]

Wikipedia isn't exactly an authoritative source of info for anything. Anybody with internet access can post anything they want there.
Nobody checks for accuracy either.

Wiki lists the sources in the footnotes for most of the information

Even if "anyone" can edit, it can generally be verified through other sources.

It's the reader's job to "check for accuracy"

 

[Nom de Forum]

Blaming the N.R.A. is a bit like blaming the Titanic's Lookout instead of the Captain for ordering the ship to travel at high speed through waters known to frequently have icebergs. There is only so much a political lobby can do to help stir away from danger at the last moment. I do not always agree with the leader's of the NRA but I obviously strongly support the organization because it has succeeded far more than failed to protect the RKBA and is the most effective organization of its type.

 

[4v50 Gary]

National Gun Rights Organization. Isn't that Dudley Brown?

 

[barnbwt]

NAGR is his "organization's" acronym. 2nd result in Google is...less than a ringing endorsement

TCB

 

[Arizona_Mike]

Another NRA hater nostalgic for the good old days of FFL harassment and entrapment, the prohibition on the interstate sale of long arms, the prohibition on interstate sale of ammunition to non-FFLs, recording and reporting of ammo sales, the computerizing 4473s into a registry, and no legal interstate travel with guns? I almost forgot the 5lb limit on black powder possession.

Usually when I encounter these people and question them they 1. don't even own a machine gun, and 2. have no idea how much they have benefited from the FOPA.

Mike

 

[BSA1]

It is important to recognize how much the Internet has improved our ability to fight anti-gun laws and how easy it is to recieve and send information.

A single click on the computer keyboard allows you to contact your Congressperson, other gun owners and any other party. Likewise it is generally easy to get information about proposed laws, etc. Discussion forums such as THR quickly alert forum members and call them to action.

 

[WestKentucky]

Blaming the NRA for 29 year old fallacies is like blaming the CMP for not acquiring more rifles to refurbish and sell. No fault of the current crop of leaders, water under the bridge.

 

[alsaqr]

National Gun Rights Organization. Isn't that Dudley Brown?

Yes, that is Dudley Brown. Dudley Brown thinks he can build up NAGR by tearing down the NRA. Badmouthing the NRA will not make Dudley Brown and his organization credible.

 

[Cee Zee]

Wikipedia isn't exactly an authoritative source of info for anything. Anybody with internet access can post anything they want there.
Nobody checks for accuracy either.

Wikipedia is very much swayed by a particular point of view and they will alter any post that discredits that POV. I've had it done to me. I posted well known information about an individual who is known nationally. No reason was even listed for her fame. When I pointed out what it was they immediately deleted it. It conflicted with their politics.

 

[barnbwt]

"Wikipedia is very much swayed by a particular point of view and they will alter any post that discredits that POV"
*sigh* the whole world is not a conspiracy. It's well-known history that the NRA was heavily invested in getting the bill put to bed (that whole seven years' work bit) and the Dem's took advantage of their eagerness to illegally slip through Hughes. President Reagan, at best ambivalent on gun issues, allowed the whole mess to slide into policy (likely with some measure of aforementioned NRA and congressional lobbying). Basically a case of evil triumphing because political men did nothing, since they would have lost what they'd worked for.

So yeah, the NRA threw machinegun owners under the bus. But even as a guy who would love to be able to legally own and make Title I machineguns, and understands more than most just how blurry and fraught the distinction between machineguns and semi-autos is, I realize that the machinegun niche of gunownership is an utterly insignificant constituency. While it would have been nice to preserve their standing, the fact is FOPA was far more important to both those MG owners and everyone else than the registry.

Where the NRA really let everyone down was not following through on their promise to address the Hughes amendment impact after passage of their baby. To this day I'm not aware of any significant interest on their part.

FWIW, it doesn't really matter that the NRA didn't put the interests of MG owners above all others. The fact is that group of folks is so small that it was unrealistic to expect that any large-scale lobbying group would given them outsize influence. I know we're in a Constitutional Republic, and we have fixed laws, but those are merely a means to protection, and without sufficient numbers or resources, you will eventually lose out to others' interests.

Look on the bright side; the Hughes Amendment has been a primary illustration of exactly what tactics and goals the anti's have in mind. So long as a defacto ban on an entire class of arms exists, they cannot claim they are not out for civilian disarmament.

TCB

 

[SuperNaut]

If the only way to discredit the NRA is to cast doubt on the entirety of Wikipedia, then I'm thinking that maybe that isn't a very strong position.

 

[hatt]

LOL. Ancient History? The NRA is still selling out gun owners. Don't beleive me? Just watch how TX plays out. Two major areas sailing through. Either campus carry or open carry, maybe both, will suspiciously go down in flames. Then the NRA will start the fundraising for the next cycle.

 

[barnbwt]

With an eager Senate, eager-er governor who was partially elected to pass this exact law, and a supermajority House strongly in favor.

"Two major areas sailing through."
If you are referring to the campus carry and open carry bills, yes they are most certainly sailing through. Gov. Abbot has said he's warming up his signing pen (or something like that) and all the House has to do is pass it as amended (and with that one little freebie for the anti-gunners in Austin, it should be more than palatable to everyone).

Sorry, but if that one dem senator freaking out over open carriers and demanding panic buttons (did they ever even install those things?) didn't get the bills tabled, I doubt some last-minute "treachery" by the NRA will accomplish Jack squat. TSRA and OCT are taking point on this one, anyway; I'm not even aware of significant NRA involvement compared to those two.

Look, I can tell you hate the NRA because they you think they made machineguns too expensive for you to own since they're just a bunch of mean 'ol elitist white Fudds (and I presume kicked your dog, or something) but that's just not reality. The only "last minute tabling" of these laws would have been at the behest of a Governor Wendy Davis...

TCB

 

[hatt]

Lets just watch. No need for all the silly talk.

 

[1911 guy]

Since the bill was passed with amendment, could the amendment be repealed without messing with the rest of FOPA?

I know it's just an intellectual exercise right now, but it would be good if it were possible and if we had a lawmaker who proposed such once in a while.

 

[Robert]

We just had a bash the NRA thread not too long ago. Let's wait a little longer...