HK USP Tactical v Sig Sauer P220 Combat TB

[13th Legion]

Hi Everyone,

New to the forum and putting together my Survival weapons cache. currently looking at the to firearms; Heckler & Koch USP Tactical and Sig Sauer P220 Combat TB.

They have a few things in common: .45 ACP, attach accessories, and the ability to attach a Suppressor, all must haves.

I am seeking your opinions and guidance between these two, especially from a self-defense/survivalist perspective. I am also open to hear other suggestions, but they must have the above three aspects. Thx.

 

[Master Blaster]

I have a USP elite and a p220 Stainless, I can shoot the HK much better and it has a cocked and locked option where the sig is DA (decocked) for the first shot unless you like to carry cocked and unlocked. Shoot both and decide which you like.

 

[Telekinesis]

While I'm typically a Sig guy, I think there's a lot to be said for ammo capacity, especially if you're in a situation where you don't need to conceal the firearm (I assume that if you're going into your "cache" things have gotten bad enough to where you're more worried about speed of deployment rather than being discrete while carrying and wearing a tshirt). And unless you're using a micro-suppressor, concealment with a full sized (no wipe) suppressor would be difficult anyway.

Something I've come to like in a gun to be strictly used as a "combat" weapon (read: pretty much anything other than a range plinker or CCW gun) is a consistent trigger. Something without a DA/SA change after the first shot. For this you might look at the XD/XDm 45 or a Glock 21. I really like the short reset of the Glock triggers, but the grip angle of the XD seems to fit my had a bit better. I personally dislike the feel of the HK USP triggers, they seem to have a really long DA that doesn't agree with me for some reason. I think Sigs have a great DA and SA trigger (and I also like that there are no active safeties to worry about). Sigs are usually a bit more accurate for me too.

As far as suppression goes, you can get a threaded barrel for just about anything, so don't just limit your search to guns that are factory threaded, especially if you don't need or want some of the extra "features" they might come with. (It also may be cheaper to just buy a 220 and a barrel than buying the "official factory threaded barrel option" but I'm not sure.)

As far as specific actions to suppress, it is a general consensus (silencertalk.com if yall are interested) that Sigs are slightly better/quieter when suppressed, though there are a lot of Glocks with suppressors hanging on them, as well as HKs. Another thing to consider is that if this is going to be a gun that will always wear a suppressor, 9mm is much better/easier to suppress than .45 is. Cheaper ammo (most 147gr is subsonic) and a smaller hole at the end of the muzzle for gasses to escape.

 

[Jenrick]

One point in the H&K's favor is you can swap out for about a dozen different choices. SAO, DA/SA, DAO, LEM, etc. Usually costs about $60 in parts and is not to hard to do at home. I personally really like the LEM trigger, it has the same crisp break as their SAO trigger, just with a long take up. If you're familiar with Para's LDA trigger's it's basically the same concept and feel.

-Jenrick

 

[harmon rabb]

between the two, for a cache, i'd go with h&k for long term reliability and durability.

however, i think a glock is a better choice as a cache weapon. glock parts are cheap and easy to get, so you can stash them now, and easy to swap. h&k and sig parts are probably more expensive and difficult to acquire.

 

[13th Legion]

As far as suppression goes, you can get a threaded barrel for just about anything, so don't just limit your search to guns that are factory threaded, especially if you don't need or want some of the extra "features" they might come with. (It also may be cheaper to just buy a 220 and a barrel than buying the "official factory threaded barrel option" but I'm not sure.)

As far as specific actions to suppress, it is a general consensus (silencertalk.com if yall are interested) that Sigs are slightly better/quieter when suppressed, though there are a lot of Glocks with suppressors hanging on them, as well as HKs. Another thing to consider is that if this is going to be a gun that will always wear a suppressor, 9mm is much better/easier to suppress than .45 is. Cheaper ammo (most 147gr is subsonic) and a smaller hole at the end of the muzzle for gasses to escape.

Great advice, especially about the suppressors. Much appreciated. I don't always intend to have a suppressor on, but want the option. Man, I have a lot to learn about...

 

[Pilot]

As far as suppression goes, you can get a threaded barrel for just about anything, so don't just limit your search to guns that are factory threaded, especially if you don't need or want some of the extra "features" they might come with. (It also may be cheaper to just buy a 220 and a barrel than buying the "official factory threaded barrel option" but I'm not sure.)

Just because a pistol has a threaded barrel doesn't mean it will function reliably with a suppressor. The HK USP Tactical .45 is designed to use a suppressor, so the recoil springs allow reliable functioning, and it has taller, adjustable sights also to accodate use with a suppressor.

Don't know anything about the version of the Sig P220 you reference, but I suspect its internals are also designed for reliable operation beyond just a threaded barrel.

I have the HK USP Tac .45, and love it. Nothing wrong with Sigs though.

 

[13th Legion]

Any thoughts on the FNH FNP-45 Tactical? This was brought to my attention. It does have a model with high profile sights.

 

[MCMXI]

I have a P220 Combat TB which is just like my other SIGs .... reliable and accurate. I've used it for USPSA Limited 10 and some steel matches and it performed exceptionally well. I did change the trigger to the older style since I prefer it to the newer short trigger that SIG uses on many of the P220s these days. The P220 Combat was developed with the idea that it would be entered in the Joint Combat Pistol "trials" run by USSOCOM but the program was dropped in 2006. I don't know anything about the HK USP Tactical but I'm sure it's an excellent pistol too.

 

[EAJ]

And here's one without the TB.

 

[JustinJ]

I'm a big HK fan so between the two i'd go with the USP tactical. I do however really like the FN Tactical as it has higher mag capacity. Really though i couldnt be happier with my Glock 21SF. Threaded barrels are readily available and with the Pearce Mag extension i have 15 round mags. 20+ round mags are also available. I also mounted a Trijicon mini red dot which drastically increases speed on target.

 

[Telekinesis]

Just because a pistol has a threaded barrel doesn't mean it will function reliably with a suppressor. The HK USP Tactical .45 is designed to use a suppressor, so the recoil springs allow reliable functioning, and it has taller, adjustable sights also to accodate use with a suppressor.

Don't know anything about the version of the Sig P220 you reference, but I suspect its internals are also designed for reliable operation beyond just a threaded barrel.

Nope, nothing different about the guns internally to make them function better with a suppressor. With pistols using the modified browning action (basically all your modern combat pistols today like Sigs, HK USPs, Beretta 92s, Glocks) the main factor in reliability is the added weight to the barrel which can cause the gun to not cycle. To solve this, most suppressors have a Nielsen device which allows for the rearward movement of the barrel so that the gun can unlock the breech and cycle. On some suppressors it can be set so that it doesn't allow the gun to cycle at all thus reducing the majority of the noise of firing a semi auto: the action/slide movement. Most of the problems with semi-autos and suppressors that I've heard about come from 1911s (not really sure why though). I know that some can function with a suppressor, but I've heard of some guns that just won't no matter what the owner does to it.

Granted some pistols are easier to suppress than others, and some are better/quieter while suppressed, but there is nothing stopping me from taking my Sig 228 or Glock 17 (standard off the shelf guns) and dropping a threaded barrel in it and having it reliably function with a suppressor.

I will give you that the factory "SD" guns may have taller sights to clear the suppressor depending on the manufacturer (thanks 1858), but you can buy those as an aftermarket item as well. Personally, I don't like any of the factory sights I've come across so I always replace them eventually. I would just buy taller sights, or learn to use the regular sight level with a partially obscured target.

 

[MCMXI]

Nope, nothing different about the guns internally to make them function better with a suppressor.

The only internal differences that I'm aware of between the P220 Combat and other P220s are the anti-corrosion features and the recoil spring.

I will give you that the factory "SD" guns have taller sights to clear the suppressor, but you can buy those as an aftermarket item as well.

The P220 Combat TB has the same sights as my other P220s.

 

[Telekinesis]

The P220 Combat TB has the same sights as my other P220s.

Hmm, I guess it must just be a HK thing?

 

[Pilot]

You don't need a Nielsen device for the HK USP Tactical to reliably cycle with a suppressor. That was my point.

 

[13th Legion]

Just because a pistol has a threaded barrel doesn't mean it will function reliably with a suppressor. The HK USP Tactical .45 is designed to use a suppressor, so the recoil springs allow reliable functioning, and it has taller, adjustable sights also to accodate use with a suppressor.

Don't know anything about the version of the Sig P220 you reference, but I suspect its internals are also designed for reliable operation beyond just a threaded barrel.

I have the HK USP Tac .45, and love it. Nothing wrong with Sigs though.

Thanks for the information. I'm not one to do much tinkering with internals. It would seem that most manufacturers do extensive research and I would not believe I could improve or change their design. I am only considering factory threaded barrels.

That being said, I saw a program on the Sportsman Channel, at Sig Sauer U.S., where they showed how they designed a new gun. As an Engineer, I was not impressed by the senior staff or their methods. Not trying to start an argument with Sig supporters, it's just my personal observation and opinion.

 

[13th Legion]

Okay, since I started this thread, I have demoed the HK USP, FN 45, HK P30 45, and S&W M&P 45. I have a 7" in hand span, The P30 and M&P feel the best, but as it stands from info from my local range, neither is available with threaded bolt. Any suggestions? A TB in at least full size is a non-negotiable.

 

[NG VI]

You can most certainly buy a threaded barrel for the M&P .45, here are some choices- http://www.google.com/#q=threaded+b....,cf.osb&fp=e215333864137903&biw=1366&bih=667


For the HK45 (there's no .45 P30, but the HK45 is pretty much exactly what you described) http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-...215333864137903&biw=1366&bih=667&pf=p&pdl=300


Less options for the HK, I suspect you can find more if you weed through all the USP barrels, which might even work in the 45.

 

[NG VI]

I also think that if you're using this for a cache gun, you'll want to have a weapon you can easily work on, and can keep a good stash of parts for. To me that screams Glock 21 or 21SF, seeing as you can spend well under a hundred bucks and have a replacement for every single small part and spring in the gun. And there are a ton of options for threaded barrels with the Glock.