Hoarding and pricing 'the little people' out of the market,,,

[UKWildcatFan]

I reload just about everything I shoot, except .22LR. Yes it takes some time, and knowledge, but once you are set up you can crank them out. My supply of .22 is dwindling, so I shoot that less. I shoot more 9MM, .45, and 5.56 now, all my reloads. They only centerfire caliber I've been buying in bulk is 9MM Makarov, but I may get the dies for that too.

^ This, minus the Mak.

 

[Onmilo]

OP is a bad shopper. Bulkammo.com has Blazer Brass 9mm for $0.24 per round and handguns have barely increased in price in the last 5 years. I know this because I bought a police trade in Sig p228 for $450 5 years ago and I just bought another one for the same price a few days ago; all online - as is the trend for shopping these days.

Also, OP is thinking like an average gun enthusiast instead of an average gun owner. The average gun owner buys a gun, takes it to the range, puts 50 rounds through it and that's it.

You think so?
I have 20,000 rounds of .22 rimfire on hand.
Total cost, about $500 because quite a bit of the stuff is match ammo.
Another 10,000 of .223 @ $1500
7000 .30/06 M2 Ball Not sure of cost but it was reasonable when purchased
5000 of .308 @ $700

Right now I can't justify replacing it at current prices so I am shooting sparingly and carefully.
Can't get the reloading components I need right now or would have a lot more.

What have you got?

 

[WVsig]

I think our differences are regional. For the last number of years,"lost count", I have checked the shelves of every vendor I frequent and have not seen a single box, bulk or per 50, on a retail shelf period. The only place I have seen 22lr for sale is on classified listings or on gun show tables at a price I don't consider worth the expense. Now I don't exactly spend any time fretting over this. I check shelves at WM when I pass through but don't consider it worth my time to go store to store in search of it. If I find it good, if I don't, I have other interests. Otherwise I think I would go insane by this point. In my area there are a lot of the ," If they want it then I want it", types that will stake out any location for arrivals so they can add to their ego pile. I think that has became their hobby.

I see a lot of stuff on shelves priced a bit too high but at the same time recently I have seen a lot of 9mm, 45 acp and 40 S&W on the shelves at Walmart pretty much everytime I am there. If I wanted to I could pick up a few boxes of 9mm or 45 ACP everyday of the week 22Lr not so much. I don't go out of my way either if I am there I look but don't make any special trips.

Again this seams a regional difference. The powder picking has stayed very slim in my area. I am going off of the powder I have been able to find. Tite Group found on Gunbroker was getting sold for upwards of $60 per pound. Figuring the going rate of primers per 1000 at the same time, cost per round came to $0.24 per round. WM has had shelves full of 9mm target ammo at the same price with copper RN. My figures included using coated lead.

The market is now national. IHMO No powder locally but was able to buy HP-38 online with primers and for a fair price. Places like Cabela's have had Win 231 and HP-38 in stock at stores for a around $20 a lb IIRC recently. I have been able to find pistols primers regularly for $30-$35 per thousand locally. Cheaper online. If you buy online you have to buy in bulk to offset the hazmat fee.

When components are too high it does make sense to buy loaded ammo. I find that can be the case with 9mm more than other calibers. You can almost never buy 45 ACP, 38 spl or 357 mag for less than you can load it.

 

[WVsig]

You think so?
I have 20,000 rounds of .22 rimfire on hand.
Total cost, about $500 because quite a bit of the stuff is match ammo.
Another 10,000 of .223 @ $1500
7000 .30/06 M2 Ball Not sure of cost but it was reasonable when purchased
5000 of .308 @ $700

Right now I can't justify replacing it at current prices so I am shooting sparingly and carefully.
Can't get the reloading components I need right now or would have a lot more.

What have you got?

Your living in the past. You are never going to see 22lr for .02 a round just like you are not going to see $.99 gas. Same goes for your other calibers. The cost of raw materials is up so the price of the finished goods are also up. It makes no sense to base how much you are shooting which I assume you do for enjoyment and recreation because you cannot replace the ammo at 2001 prices. It would be like saying I am not going to drive again until I can buy $.99 gas.

I don't understand why people think this way.

 

[Thermactor]

Winchester 22 ammo has never been my preference, but to say it is crap is an exaggeration. The same applies to Remington Thunderbolts. People like what they like and some are not really willing to spend that extra money on target grade 22 ammo regardless. We all make our choices and live with them. For me, I keep a wide selection (brands) of 22LR in my cache. If I needed some, I would not hesitate to buy Winchester bulk for plinking and that is what most 22LR ammo is used for anyway.

The people that have been excluded in the current market are the folks that plan on shooting tomorrow and wander into Walmart thinking they can buy some bulk ammo. It is not there at any price. It is else where, but the very casual shooter does not wander into every store looking for a box of 22 ammo. That's why keeping at least a small cache (maybe 1000 rounds) on hand is a very good idea.

Every 22 seems to like a different brand of 22LR, so you might find someone who has a gun that does great with cheaper stuff and poorly with more expensive stuff.
My Sig conversion slide kits for example don't run well at all with CCI SV RN bullets. But the failure rate is FAR less with the maligned Remington Golden Bullet hollow points.
It might just be a matter of buying a box of each and seeing what your particular gun likes, then stocking up for that gun.

 

[hatt]

You think so?
I have 20,000 rounds of .22 rimfire on hand.
Total cost, about $500 because quite a bit of the stuff is match ammo.
Another 10,000 of .223 @ $1500
7000 .30/06 M2 Ball Not sure of cost but it was reasonable when purchased
5000 of .308 @ $700

Right now I can't justify replacing it at current prices so I am shooting sparingly and carefully.
Can't get the reloading components I need right now or would have a lot more.

What have you got?

What was the point of building that stockpile if you're not going to use it? At some point you'll find a decent price and be able to buy and restock. As pointed out. If you're waiting for ammo to return to the prices you paid years ago, you're out of luck.

 

[HammsBeer]

If you were looking for a cheap hobby for the "little guy", shooting is not it.

Search and find the best deals out there, buy in bulk, buy when the market is in a slump (like AR's right now), and you can have enough stashed away to continue shooting during droughts or market price swings.

But I'll tell you this, when it comes to ammo, the costs will just continue to rise.

 

[WVsig]

But I'll tell you this, when it comes to ammo, the costs will just continue to rise.

I agree 100% with this but I think availability in some calibers is and will continue to get better.

 

[lot21]

Thanks VA, I think I will still get one. I am one of the “little people” that this thread refers too. Between raising a family and work I've done very little shooting the last few years. But I always said someday I was going to own one. Well, now the kids are all grown up and I've worked my way up from a shop floor employee to become an engineer. “Someday” is finally here.

 

[WVsig]

Thanks VA, I think I will still get one. I am one of the “little people” that this thread refers too. Between raising a family and work I've done very little shooting the last few years. But I always said someday I was going to own one. Well, now the kids are all grown up and I've worked my way up from a shop floor employee to become an engineer. “Someday” is finally here.

It is a great time to buy and AR. The panic buying in that market is over and they are everywhere for reasonable prices. It is a buyer AR15 market right no!

On the ammo side you can get American Eagle 55gr 556 at Walmart in 90 round count boxes or buy in bulk online. It is out there and was readily available before the M855 scare started and IMHO will be again soon. Maybe not the M855 but there are lots of other if not better rounds for AR rifles.

 

[HammsBeer]

Your living in the past. You are never going to see 22lr for .02 a round just like you are not going to see $.99 gas. Same goes for your other calibers. The cost of raw materials is up so the price of the finished goods are also up. It makes no sense to base how much you are shooting which I assume you do for enjoyment and recreation because you cannot replace the ammo at 2001 prices. It would be like saying I am not going to drive again until I can buy $.99 gas.

You are absolutely right. The only way to beat the ever rising cost of ammo is if you buy enough cheap ammo now to last your lifetime so you never have to worry about restocking it. Some calibers like 9mm or 5.56 I have enough for 5-10 years and supplement it when I find really good ammo sale (combined with store coupon, or free shipping), and some calibers like 7.5 Swiss I've got 30-40 years worth.

 

[MachIVshooter]

What was the point of building that stockpile if you're not going to use it? At some point you'll find a decent price and be able to buy and restock. As pointed out. If you're waiting for ammo to return to the prices you paid years ago, you're out of luck.

Agreed. Find a minimum round count you're comfortable with, then just try to maintain.

My stocks have gradually increased over the years, but it's not so much because that was a goal of mine. It's just been the result of conditioning myself to grab a box or two of this or that each trip to the store, and to jump on bulk deals when the price is right.

If you never shoot what you have because you are afraid you can't replace it at the last price you paid, what was the point of buying it in the first place?

Just adjust your shooting habits to that maintenance level; if the current prices dictate that you can only buy 2,000 rounds per year, then shoot 2,000 rounds per year or less.

I admit, I did a whole lot less shooting in 2013 than 2012 or present, but I didn't stop altogether. It just meant that I wasn't burning through 400 or 500 rounds every other weekend. I found shooting activities that reduced ammo consumption, and also spent time engaging in other activities, such as RC cars.

Unless you're convinced that the apocalypse is just around the corner and the only currency will be food, clothing, medicine and ammo, there's no reason to sit on huge stockpiles of ammo and not enjoy the firearms that eat it.

 

[Onmilo]

Your living in the past. You are never going to see 22lr for .02 a round just like you are not going to see $.99 gas. Same goes for your other calibers. The cost of raw materials is up so the price of the finished goods are also up. It makes no sense to base how much you are shooting which I assume you do for enjoyment and recreation because you cannot replace the ammo at 2001 prices. It would be like saying I am not going to drive again until I can buy $.99 gas.

I don't understand why people think this way.

I'm not living in the past.
It's 2015 and ammunition is priced too high because the market chokes up, panics and purchases at these ridiculous prices.

Gas COULD be sold for .99 cents a gallon right now too, but it isn't.

 

[WVsig]

I'm not living in the past.
It's 2015 and ammunition is priced too high because the market chokes up, panics and purchases at these ridiculous prices.

Gas COULD be sold for .99 cents a gallon right now too, but it isn't.

9mm has not been choked up for years now. IMHO. It no longer sells for $12.99 for 100 rounds like it did a decade ago but it is available and it has been available for the last 10 years. I can still buy 1000 rounds shipped to my door for about $225.

22Lr is the exception not the rule.

One could argue that people's irrational need to have 20,000+ rounds of 22lr at all times is what is driving the price up so high and creating inflated secondary markets not panic buying. LOL

 

[Onmilo]

9mm has not been choked up for years now. IMHO. It no longer sells for $12.99 for 100 rounds like it did a decade ago but it is available and it has been available for the last 10 years. I can still buy 1000 rounds shipped to my door for about $225.

22Lr is the exception not the rule.

Indeed
9mm & .40 are still in the "Reasonable" price range for FMJ ammunition.
Makes me seriously consider picking up a Beretta Storm Carbine as 20 round Beretta magazines can be found here at decent prices too.

 

[WVsig]

Indeed
9mm & .40 are still in the "Reasonable" price range for FMJ ammunition.
Makes me seriously consider picking up a Beretta Storm Carbine as 20 round Beretta magazines can be found here at decent prices too.

45 ACP is also not out of wack either. IMHO

 

[MachIVshooter]

It's 2015 and ammunition is priced too high because the market chokes up, panics and purchases at these ridiculous prices.

Not true at all. Adjusted for inflation, most ammunition is about as cheap as it's ever been. .22 LR is really the sole exception, but it will come back down eventually.

If you're thinking in the context of cheap surplus ammo, you need to adjust your perspective. That stuff waxes and wanes, sometimes the result of politics, sometimes just because it runs out. 5.45mm 7N6 was about the cheapest centerfire rifle round we've ever seen, and an importation ban ended it. Various 7.62x25mm surplus loads were as little $0.08/rd a few years back; the surplus ran dry. You cannot calibrate your ammo price calculator based on imported surplus ammo, though. When it's available in large quantities because one nation or another is unloading huge stock, it's dirt cheap, but the price will skyrocket when the pipelines run dry.

Meanwhile, rounds like 5.56 NATO and 7.62x39 Soviet have held pretty darn stable, with a couple of notable market-driven spikes. When I bought my first .223, a mini-14, in 2000, I was paying $6-$7/box for for M193, could get as cheap as ~$225/case for brass cased and boxer primed ammo. Adjusted for inflation, $225 2000 dollars is $305 2015 dollars; brass cased and boxer primed M193 has been running right around $325/case until the M855 panic this month, and you could find it sometimes for under $300.

Also bear in mind that the early 2000's were the hayday for ammo; go back another 10-15 years, ammo was more expensive relative to income than it is today. I'm only 33, so I wasn't buying ammo in 1985, but I occasionally come across boxes of that vintage that still have price tags reflecting higher ammo costs than our contemporary market. I'm sure some other members may be able to post photos of 30 year old .45 ACP boxes with $9.99 stickers on them, what would amount to $21.70 today. Meanwhile, right now, one can go to Walmart and grab a box of Federal aluminum cased .45 for $14.97, brass cased for about $20.

 

[ford8nr]

Every 22 seems to like a different brand of 22LR, so you might find someone who has a gun that does great with cheaper stuff and poorly with more expensive stuff.
My Sig conversion slide kits for example don't run well at all with CCI SV RN bullets. But the failure rate is FAR less with the maligned Remington Golden Bullet hollow points.

The reason the Sig runs better with GB's is they are high velocity. Try CCI Mini Mags HV and it will run fine AND be more accurate. Every .22 prefers a specific ammo, but I have NEVER seen one shoot accurately with cheap bulk ammo be it Fed, Rem, Win... . By accurate I'm talking 20rd 50yd groups under 3/4"

 

[ford8nr]

With GOOD .22 ammo

 

[WVsig]

Not true at all. Adjusted for inflation, most ammunition is about as cheap as it's ever been. .22 LR is really the sole exception, but it will come back down eventually.

If you're thinking in the context of cheap surplus ammo, you need to adjust your perspective. That stuff waxes and wanes, sometimes the result of politics, sometimes just because it runs out. 5.45mm 7N6 was about the cheapest centerfire rifle round we've ever seen, and an importation ban ended it. Various 7.62x25mm surplus loads were as little $0.08/rd a few years back; the surplus ran dry. You cannot calibrate your ammo price calculator based on imported surplus ammo, though. When it's available in large quantities because one nation or another is unloading huge stock, it's dirt cheap, but the price will skyrocket when the pipelines run dry.

Meanwhile, rounds like 5.56 NATO and 7.62x39 Soviet have held pretty darn stable, with a couple of notable market-driven spikes. When I bought my first .223, a mini-14, in 2000, I was paying $6-$7/box for for M193, could get as cheap as ~$225/case for brass cased and boxer primed ammo. Adjusted for inflation, $225 2000 dollars is $305 2015 dollars; brass cased and boxer primed M193 has been running right around $325/case until the M855 panic this month, and you could find it sometimes for under $300.

Also bear in mind that the early 2000's were the hayday for ammo; go back another 10-15 years, ammo was more expensive relative to income than it is today. I'm only 33, so I wasn't buying ammo in 1985, but I occasionally come across boxes of that vintage that still have price tags reflecting higher ammo costs than our contemporary market. I'm sure some other members may be able to post photos of 30 year old .45 ACP boxes with $9.99 stickers on them, what would amount to $21.70 today. Meanwhile, right now, one can go to Walmart and grab a box of Federal aluminum cased .45 for $14.97, brass cased for about $20.

Winner Winner Chicken Dinner!

 

[jcwit]

But I'll tell you this, when it comes to ammo, the costs will just continue to rise.

LOL, they said the same thing about gas.

 

[jcwit]

The people that have been excluded in the current market are the folks that plan on shooting tomorrow and wander into Walmart thinking they can buy some bulk ammo. It is not there at any price. It is else where, but the very casual shooter does not wander into every store looking for a box of 22 ammo. That's why keeping at least a small cache (maybe 1000 rounds) on hand is a very good idea.

The others also hurt are the kids, whether those at home or those at camps that offer marksmanship training.

And no, it's not about the "children", It's ALL ABOUT THE FUTURE OF OUR SPORT!

 

[oneounceload]

A "OK" price on 22lr today is 20% to 30% higher than is was 10 years ago.

And gas is up a lot more, food is as well, as is housing, insurance, utilities and taxes.......so what?

 

[strambo]

I buy less when it is expensive and stock up when it is cheap. I haven't paid over 7c per on .22 shipped and usually just a little over 5c shipped. I just rarely get any these days, but just got another 1000 last month at I think 5.4c per. Never paid over $13 for an AR magazine, usually under $10. Maybe next panic I'll sell some stuff...then re-buy even more with the profit when prices come back down again.

 

[jrdolall]

9mm FMJ is a buck a round? I can find 9mm locally for $.25 at any Walmart or LGS around here. .45 is higher but well under $.50 per round.
22 is rare in the stores around here. Rare is a subjective term as it is pretty much invisible.