Hodgdon's Triple 7 - Rusting Experiment

[Kramer Krazy]

After posting about shooting my black powder pistol and not cleaning it immediately afterwards, then stating I was using Hodgdon's Triple 7 (FFG - was on sale at Walmart) after being lectured on cleaning the gun, I figured I'd run a test.

My Euroarms pistol is quite old, been partially submerged in a trunk with a water leak, has pitting on the outside, and probably 50% of the bluing/case hardening finish left. In other words, it isn't pretty and has LOTS of exposed, raw metal. So, I first shot the gun two weeks ago and I still have NOT cleaned it. I shot it last night, again, then inspected it for rust, and still have not seen any, so.......I plan on shooting at least one cylinder a week through it, and I'm not going to clean it until I see some form of rust. I wonder how long I can go without cleaning it.

Loading data:

1) Approx 23 gr Hodgdon's Triple 7 FFg
2) Wads
3) .454 Hornady round ball
5) Thompson Center "Bore Butter"

 

[mec]

Could be interesting-Isn't SC pretty damp and tropical?

 

[Kramer Krazy]

Well, it's been a few weeks without cleaning the ole revolver and a few cylinders later, and I still don't see any signs of rust on the gun. I broke the gun apart last night, and inspected it under a fluorescent light. There were no indications of even a slight hint of rust, yet. The nipples, on the outside and inside, do not have any visible oxidation, and all the bare metal on the cylinder, barrel, wedge, and exposed screw heads show none, either.

The weather, for the most part, over the last four weeks have varied from highs of 40-75 degrees, and it's been fairly dry with an occasional shower. I've been keeping the gun, in the open, on my computer desk in the family room (constant temp of about 72 degrees - we have a humidifier running at night, about 40 feet away, but upstairs in a room with the door always left open).

So.....four weeks, and no visible signs of corrosion on a gun with lots of bare metal while using Hodgdon's Triple 7.

 

[GrayBear]

Rust Test?

Your test is a good idea. Does the propellant have that much to do with it? Why hasn't the gun rusted where the finish is worn off? That should have nothing to do with any residue in the chambers.

Once this phase is complete, how about cleaning the gun and repeating the test with black powder?

GrayBear

 

[stevelyn]

I also use 777 in my GPR. This past summer I shot it over several range sessions without cleaning it other than for swabbing the barrel with a patch and running a Bore Butter patch down the barrel. I live in a marine environment with high humidity. I never got around to cleaning the rifle until later in the fall and never found any rust or discoloration.

 

[P95Carry]

KK - very intruiguing experiment and results ... particularly seeing as how I got paranoid about cleaning in the other thread!

I certainly was not aware this 777 was so seemingly kind re corrosion. I certainly didn't find ''Clean Shot'' was safe against corrosion. I wonder how it's cope if humidity up to summer levels.

A BP comparison would be good but - would certainly be loathe with that to leave things too long!!!

Still - keep the info coming!

 

[GrayBear]

More On a Rust Test -

Another thing you might try is to use something other than Bore Butter. There are two reports above about the lack of rust, both using a combination of Triple 7 and Bore Butter.

Where I live there is very limited ML shooting. What little there is tends mostly to be in-lines, scopes, pellets and sabots. Few stores carry any BP supplies at all, so I've never bought or used Bore Butter. However, since only one store in the area carries Goex, I have run short of powder and have used most of the artificial propellants including a can of Triple 7.

IIRC, while I was shooting up the can of Triple 7. I didn't clean for a few days and had a nipple rust solidly closed.

GrayBear

 

[Kramer Krazy]

"I was shooting up the can of Triple 7. I didn't clean for a few days and had a nipple rust solidly closed."


I inspected the nipples on the revolver, but did not remove any of them. I was thinking of removing them, to inspect them more closely because the burned powder residual is probably hiding/covering up any rust that may have formed.

As for Bore Butter, I just happened to pick some up at our local Walmart when they were getting rid of all their BP stuff after the hunting season ended. I've thought about using Crisco, as some people have recommended. Various parts of the gun have a generous amount of Bore Butter on them, so this is probably helping reduce rusting, too......I think the first signs of rusting will be on the nipples, so I'm wanting to inspect them a little more closely.

 

[OldWolf]

Triple 7 does not have sulfer in it so you will not get any rust from corrosion!

 

[GrayBear]

Rust Test

Kramer Krazy, maybe I should say I'm not fighting any of your conclusions. I'm an ex-engineer, retired since 1990, who once managed a big Reliability & Maintainability Lab for a major division of General Electric.

I dreamed up tests to wear out computer peripheral devices in order to get information on product improvement. When I hear the word "test" I get this Pavlovian response to think up variations and change one parameter at a time to eliminate some variables.

Just wanted to let you know I'm not trying to pick an argument, it's just that experimenters need to remember the old saying, "If you always do what you've always done, you'll always be getting what you've always gotten."



GrayBear

 

[Kramer Krazy]

GrayBear, I never took any offense to your suggestions, as I knew where you are coming from (four years of mechanical engineering, and I now work in GE's R&D facility on gas turbines). I started this little "experiment" just to check this Triple 7, since being elbowed for not cleaning the gun immediately after firing it. I'm just curious about this product when it comes to rusting. As OldWolf mentioned, Triple 7 has no sulfur, so there will not be the production of sulfuric acid as a bi-product, as with black powder, but, I'm interested in corrosion caused by the non-sulfur components in the Triple 7, and how long I can go before rust may develop.

 

[Kramer Krazy]

Took out three nipples last night for detailed inspection......no signs of corrosion in any way, shape, or form.

 

[gooseklr]

777

I have used it for 2 years in my encore and have not cleaned it for a week or so at most. I love the 777 it has been really good for me and my encore. Very accurate with the bullets (dead center) I am using. Neat experiment

 

[P99guy]

Hi all,
I have never used triple 7, but all this talk makes me want to buy some to try
....is the powder charge the same as black powder? (BP 60gr = T7 60gr?)

 

[vwfool]

I read on another thread that you have to use less 777 than BP or Pyrodex; although, I don't know how much less. I would really like to hear the answer to your question. I just got back into BP shooting. It seems that a lot has changed. Except for the prices, it seems things have changed for the better.

Right now: Pyrodex RS $16-20 per pound

Last time I bought some: $8 per pound


If the 777 works as well as a few people have said, I am going to have to try it out next.

 

[mec]

I've found that a 20 gr measure of 777 does the same thing as a 30 grain measure of Pyrodex in my .50 Lyman pistol. The measures being calibrated to the actual weight of black powder. a 15 grain measure gets the same as 20 pyrodex in my LePage target pistol

 

[P95Carry]

If I recall correctly - using 777 or Cleanshot - any BP alternatives - they do state that the powder is to measured by volume - that volume equating to the normal safe charge of BP.

So a dispenser that throws a 60 grain charge of BP would be used with the alternative propellant - to give an ''equivalent'' charge. NOT weight for weight.

 

[vwfool]

Thanks for the measurement clarification.

 

[arcticap]

I give you a lot of credit for trying the experiment but I am concerned about the environmental conditions, especially humidity, as not really being factored into THIS particular equation. I have tried Clean Shot, Clear Shot (Goex) and 777. They are all supposed to be non-sulphuric and non-corrosive, or so I thought. This made me naive enough to believe that I could delay cleaning a couple of rifles after some summer shooting. The rifles sat for weeks with the remnants of Clean Shot, the first of the newbies that I had bought, in the barrel. I found out just how hydrophyllic (moisture absorbing) the residue could be when I found corrosion and minor pitting in the barrels. Yes, this BP cleaning nut who never missed cleaning Pyrodex (at least not for more than 24 hours tops) had been lulled into complacency. The extremely high humidity had been THE factor in my opinion. I have not let the proper cleaning off the hook again and the rifles weren't ruined, but I'm determined to not find out the hard way about the Clear shot and 777. So thank you for trying this experiment, but unless you store your guns in some summer humidity, I won't be able to feel confident about leaving any of my BP guns go uncleaned again. By the way, I haven't had very good results with any BP substitute besides Pyrodex as of yet, and only continue using the newer products to keep my newer guns more foul free. But my patience is wearing thin trying to obtain good results with any of the non-sulphuric powders.

 

[P99guy]

Ok factoring this thread and some others...

777 is a bit hotter than run of the mill BP and is easy to clean..if this is true why would one continue to bother with the older 1960's pyrodex by the same company? by all rights it sounds like they have improved the product (fill me in)

swiss BP is hotter than run of the mill , and for BP relativley easy to clean and has low levels of fouling

Pyrodex has ignition problems in some firearms,epecially flintlocks(sizzles in the pan before going boom) and causes rust.....

it sounds to me one is better off with swiss BP than Pyrodex(lets here some opinions please)

Im just trying to put it all into context as I am new to BP shooting, but well versed on 20th and 21st century military and police weapons.

Upon Kramers post , I have obtained triple seven to try, and found a place local that has the swiss powder and will go get a couple of pounds of that payday....all of it will be ran through a .577 enfield replica to see what combination of powder and ball/minie it shoots best with.
But as I said , Im open to opinions and experiances of those who has walked the path before I.

 

[arcticap]

Personal Preferences

P99guy, I'll try to fill you in. Everything is based on personal preference & trial and error. The more you shoot, you will also begin to develop opinions in conjunction with what you have read. You can't soley base your opinion on something you read though. You know the saying, don't believe anything you hear, and only half of what you see. Well, I never had any ignition problems with Pyrodex. It doesn't get old or clumpy like black powder can (moisture?). I know that I can load my rifle with it and go hunting for two weeks of muzzle loading season and it will still fire reliably in freezing winter. I don't trust a water soluble product to perform as well here in New England in December without testing, especially a product that just has not proven itself to me to be worthwhile to test. I try to only use the finer FFFg (pistol powder) because it pours smoother and packs better in ALL calibers as Sam Fadala recommended. It also has given me better accuracy in my guns. Is hotter better? I don't know, but 777 seemed less explosive to me and inaccurate. Some guys swear by black powder, others swear by Pyrodex, some by 777. When I find a gun that it actually shoots better in, I'll swear by it for that gun. They all produce different expansion (velocity) curves, every barrel has a different length, etc...they all foul differently, it's all very subjective. The weather or seasonal temperature fluctuations here are always a factor. Go with your gut instinct, jot down a few notes on your results for your guns, and go from there. Down the road, your opinion will start becoming harder to change as well.

 

[P99guy]

your words are very true, its seems there is certainly more experimentation to this type of firearm(lard , cream of wheat, finishing nails) but a fun time had by all to be sure.

 

[cookiemonster]

All of this is well and good...about the corrosion and rust preventing...but my questions are as follows...

First, does it produce a nice, big, stinky cloud like BP?

Second, is it acceptable in use with cartridge based firearms like BP and Pyro?


I use BP or Pyro filled cartridges to um...make statements at the range when someone is acting like an arse next to me....

I will actually throw 1 1/2 gr. of unique into a 45-70 and then a volume charge of 60 gr. of FFg Goex and slight compression. Keeps cleanup at a minimum. I have heard of others using H-110 or 296 for a "cleaner" charge behind their BP, but I am not THAT brave.

Darrell

 

[20cows]

Clean Shot

I live in a semi-arid climate and have been able to go a few days before cleaning my rifle or cap-n-ball revolvers w/o a problem using Clean Shot.

The thing I like about Clean Shot is that it can be cleaned with Hoppe's #9 solvent. I do not have to take the revolver apart to the last screw like I did w/ BP. I just separate the gun into three pieces, barrel, frame and cylinder and run a patch soaked in the solvent thru everything. Another to dry, wipe 'er off, put it back together and I'm done.

No water necessary, so no drying necessary either. My wife is happier w/o all the mess in the kitchen sink, too.

I'll probably never shoot BP again. (No offence to those who prefer the "holy black".)

Edit: The smoke cloud is not as persistant as BP, but it is acceptable for BP cartridges. If I remember correctly 777 is not recommended for cartridge use, but could be wrong on that.

 

[Kramer Krazy]

Well...I'm ending my little experiment......Nine weeks, and no rust present. I took out all the nipples, and none of them had signs of rust, the barrel didn't look any worse than before, and the exterior was just as it was. During this nine week period, the only cleaning that the gun got was a quick exterior wipe around the cylinder/barrel region (only once), because the Bore Butter build-up was getting pretty severe. I'll probably get into the habit of cleaning the gun after each shooting, which is what I usually try to do after shooting my cartridge firearms, too. Things I've determined during this experiment.....

1) I absolutely hate to shoot this gun. It shoots about 12"-14" high at 15 yrds
2) Blackpowder firearms are not as dirty and limb-threatening as people have told me
3) I have to be in the right "mood" to want to shoot BP. Just seems to take too long to reload, sometimes
4) I do like the idea of BP, and will keep this pistol, and will probably buy a newer and hopefully more accurate pistol, in the future.
5) Oh yeah......as for the powder....it's easy to clean up, and, at least under my conditions and with my gun, resisted corrosion better than I'd hoped.

I picked up a CVA Plainsman rifle because I was getting wrapped up in shooting BP, but I haven't shot it, yet. What's bad, is that I'm eyeing a used CVA Kentucky Rifle that a local pawn shop has it for $99. I think I'm just addicted to firearms of all sorts, now.