"Hold it. I've got a gun." "So what?"

[Alan Fud]

A couple of nights ago just as we were going to be turning in, I heard a noise outside and since we live in the middle of nowhere with our nearest neighbor about a football field away, the noise seemed out of place. Since one of our cars is sitting outside because we haven't had a chance to go through all of the junk in the garage and empty it out, my immediate thought was that somebody might be trying to steel the car. So, arming myself with my 4013TSW...

... I tucked it in my belt under my shirt, I turned on the spotlights and went outside. It turned out to be my neighbor from across the field filling up some buckets with water. He's been having problems with his well and had asked earlier if he could have some water. I told him that as long as he doesn't hook up a hose and starts watering his lawn to feel free anytime. We talked briefly and then he went his way and I went mine.

But then I got to thinking

Posted by TallPine: ... it isn't legal to point it at somebody that is not an immediate threat to you, and pull the trigger ...

Suppose, just suppose, it WAS someone trying to steal my car and I pulled my gun on him and ordered him to stop and he refused and continued doing what he was doing. With very few exceptions, it is unlawful to use deadly force to defend your property. As a matter of fact, most places require YOU to retreat (unless you're in your home) and if retreat is not possible, then and only then can deadly force be legally used.

So what would you do? Suppose you caught someone stealing something, trying to break in, etc.; and ignored you and continued with his illegal activity?

 

[Dorrin79]

I would hope that 99% of prospective criminals would either a) flee in terror or b) do something threatening enough for you to justifiably shoot them, when threatened at gunpoint in the commission of a crime.

Fortunately I live in Texas, so I don't have to worry about what to do in that other 1% situation.

I have no idea what would be appropriate in that situation in, say, California.

Call the police?

 

[Pilgrim]

Suppose, just suppose, it WAS someone trying to steal my car and I pulled my gun on him and ordered him to stop and he refused and continued doing what he was doing.

I suppose you could position yourself so that he has to drive over you to escape, then blast him. It worked for that Pastor in Alaska.

Pilgrim

 

[Alan Fud]

Law still requires you to retreat. It would be kind of hard trying to explain why you were standing & shooting instead of running to your house for the phone.

 

[grampster]

Three S's.

 

[Voodoo]

Here's a few ideas...

1) Introduce him to my dogs. If he's trespassing on my property, then chances are the first people he's going to meet are my VERY TERRITORIAL boxers! They would put a hurtin' on him big time.

2) Using your remote, set-off your car alarm. It "should" scare him off, or at least get him to stop. Also, most alarms have an ignition kill. If I set it off, he ain't going anywhere with my car.

3) Sick my wife on him! She can nag him off the premises!

 

[MLH]

Pitch him a baseball bat or a tire iron

Then make sure there's only one side to the story!

 

[synoptic]

In Texas you can shoot someone for engaging in criminal mischief at night. You can also get in the cars way and when he tries to run you over you can shoot him. If the car can't be reasonably replace (i.e. a classic, antique, etc...) you can shoot him. In the end he'd be shot. I'm a poor college student living in a town with no public transportation. If I lose my car I can't buy another and I wouldn't be able to get to class and work. In the end it is my car that I bought and paid for. He has no right to have it or take it. I value my car more than I value the life of the person trying to steal it.

 

[longtom4570]

Umm shouldn't you have all the same colored brass in one magazine i mean really no sense of balance at all

 

[Alan Fud]

It was explained to me some years ago by a member of the Florida Highway Patrol the advantage of alternating ammo -- lite & fast with heavy & slow.

 

[El Tejon]

Alan, well, which is it--breaking in or stealing your car???

BIG difference.

 

[spacemanspiff]

well first i would have to say that unless there are three of them standing on your doorstep, theres no threat whatsoever. and then they would have to be trying to get me to drive them somewhere, but i wouldnt do it, i'd offer to make a phone call for them, but juan, jose and paco wouldnt know anyone to call.
so then i'd get my para p13 and spare 13 round magazine and jump online to go ask an online community what they would do.
which by that time the normal people would have lost interest and would have wandered off to do something worthwhile.
ya dig?

 

[Alan Fud]

El Tejon, you catch someone doing something illegal on your property ... stealing your lawn mower, trying to steal your car, attempting to pry open a window, whatever. You're both outside and after pointing the gun at him, he refuses to comply.

My understanding of the law is that your only option is to retreat inside and call the police because dealy force would not be justified unless he followed you in or attempted to come into your home.

 

[HankL]

I'll pitch in with Grampster on this one.

 

[Alan Fud]

So spacemanspiff, it appears that you know how to properly react in this sitaution and you're not interested in sharing that knowledge with others.

 

[El Tejon]

Alan, not only option, but best. "Those who enter into combat have already lost." Get a description and call Johnny Law.

In most jurisdictions one may use reasonable force, to the exclusion of deadly force, to recover to prevent property from being stolen. However, in some jurisdiction, the curtilage counts as your domicile. Check local listings.

 

[spacemanspiff]

i'm sorry, i just cant bring myself to take your scenarios seriously anymore. nothing personal, nor is this a personal attack on you...

burn me once, shame on you.
burn me again, shame on me... just trying to avoid shaming myself.
i bid you good day, sir.

 

[Alan Fud]

spacemanspiff, if you think about how to handle a given situation ahead of time and get input from other individuals who might be knowledgeable in that area or have similiar experience in a like scenario, chances are you will react correctly if something like that happens to you instead of having to make a major decision in a split-second or two. Wouldn't your agree?

That's the entire theme behind sharing what you know and learning what you don't.

 

[Dr.Rob]

Well since this was phrased hypotheticly....

Fud I'm not sure there is a good answer.

Even if you run naked from the bushes screaming like a banshee racking the action of a 12 guage over your head and the guy keeps calmly stealing your wheels?

Maybe he's someone you DON'T want to confront.

Maybe he's on some kind of major drug, or maybe he's some majorly bad man, who really doesn't have anything left to lose.

You still do.

Is the car insured? Think the cops can block him off at the end of the road before he can make it off the property?

Ever consider that even drawing your gun, without using it is "brandishing" or assault with a deadly weapon?

It's just a car.

If he was coming into your house, different matter altogether.

Suppose you could shoot out the tires of your OWN car to keep him from stealing it...

Just don't miss and hit him.

Oh and BTW that alternating ammo thing.. I think thats a BAD idea.

 

[Wildalaska]

Chances are that since you armed yourself and went OUTSIDE, theres a good chance you will be indicted if ANYHTING involving that gun happens....

Might not get convicted though

WildstayinhouseorcallcopsAlaska

 

[Alan Fud]

Good point, Wildalaska.

 

[Werewolf]

Alan Fud related that:

Law still requires you to retreat. It would be kind of hard trying to explain why you were standing & shooting instead of running to your house for the phone.

Not in Oklahoma. There is no duty to retreat - ever. That doesn't mean you shouldn't if you can and by doing so you could prevent a death or an escalation - it just means you have no legal duty to retreat in OK - unlike say MA where it is my understanding that one does have a lega duty to retreat.

Regarding protecting personal property - in OK the felony pointing a firearm law makes a specific exemption for protecting your own property with a firearm (but the law covers pointing not shooting). The deadly force law however does not. That creates a basic conflict that to the best of my knowledge has yet to be tested here.

The way I see it you can legally point your weapon at someone attempting an illegal act with your property (my attorney agrees but says it's stupid to do so - that's what insurance is for) but not legal to shoot him (again attorney agrees). So basically if the criminal flips you off you really can't do much about it other than use reasonable force to detain him.

 

[Checkman]

From the perspective of the police. It used to be okay to shoot a fleeing felon - in the back that it is. But in the mid-seventies ( I think) there was a court case that went to the U.S. Supreme Court called Tennesse vs. Gardner. A police officer shot and killed a teenager who was fleeing a house that he had just burged and said teenager was carrying property from that house. The Supreme court said that it was unjustified because the kid was running away and was not a threat. Eventually that case and others like it made it very clear that to shoot a cop has to be acting to stop a clear danger to the community.
Of course the cop has some exceptions because of their function in society. If an officer witnesses a drive by (casulties or not) the officer can pursue and fire at the car. On the other hand if the vehicle keeps driving after firing a few rounds off the owner can not run back into his home, get a gun and then run after thm shooting. Even here in Idaho the courts can be pretty strict when it comes to the interpetation of self-defense. Stealing property dosen't justify deadly force in the eyes of most judges or prosecutors. This is based on my training and experience. No doubt somebody has a differing opinion or experience.

Of course even if the home owner is justified in his or her's use of deadly force they can still be sued - just like cops. It's just a simple reality that we all need to live with.

 

[Checkman]

One more thing. You can point your weapon at the person. If they're committing a felony on your property there is nothing that says you can't be prepared for things going south. Just be able to articulate your reason for deadly force if it should come to that.

 

[Delmar]

While I realize that you shouldn't be blowing holes in tresspassers and such, but it seems so wrong to have someone making off with your property which you worked your skin to the bone for and the only thing left to do is call the police and wait for the insurance company to pay off, further taking up a lot more of your time away from the people you love and are responsible for.