Hollow Point Penetration Ability Question

[LookAtYou]

If you prefer penetration over all else, choose a bullet that expands less. If you want a larger hole, go with a larger caliber. If you want both penetration and expansion, get a magnum. No free lunch.

True. That's why at this point, I've decided to go with the new 135 Grain Federal Hydra Shok Deep. Consistent 15" of penetration in FBI protocol bare gel tests.

But, also maybe FMJ isn't dead, and still has a place in self defense? I mean, at least you KNOW it's gonna penetrate. And for people like those pictured, especially if the bullet has to go through an arm, JHP might not meet it's one stipulation, it must first sufficiently penetrate. I know, these people are rare, but still, handguns are supposed to be the great Equalizer, no matter how big the person. Isn't that kind of the original premise? Something to think about.

 

[LookAtYou]

Your thinking is right, 12" may not be enough. May not get 6" if that same bullet goes through glass or sheet metal first, or it may not expand at all and give you 30" of penetration. This is why I prefer a larger diameter, if (when) everything goes wrong it will still have diameter and weight on it's side, not as dependant on velocity to expand and will penetrate well. On paper lots of 380s will expand and penetrate sufficiently, on the street there's no telling. I'm no expert but I believe folks should carry the most powerful gun they can control and reasonably conceal. I have no use for certain calibers that will remain nameless.

I agree! Except in tests of JHP's that failed to expand, they STILL don't match FMJ penetration. For example, a 9mm HST (124-147 Gr, doesn't matter) that would normally go 14" when it fully expands, may go 18-20 inches if it failed. I've seen some people argue in the past, "Hey, well at least with a JHP, at worst it acts like a FMJ". If I was able to then, I would say no, it doesn't.

 

[AJC1]

Your asking a hollow point to do the job of a solid. We want expansion to deliver energy and stop over penetration. That's the literal purpose of a hollow point. You can dial back bullet velocity below optimum expansion velocity and get more penetration. You can design a bullet to expand less. Bullets cannot change the rules of physics and do both.

 

[LookAtYou]

Your asking a hollow point to do the job of a solid. We want expansion to deliver energy and stop over penetration. That's the literal purpose of a hollow point. You can dial back bullet velocity below optimum expansion velocity and get more penetration. You can design a bullet to expand less. Bullets cannot change the rules of physics and do both.

I agree, but you also see how focusing so much on avoiding over penetration, opens up the door for under penetration? The last person you want your self defense ammo to not work on is a huge attacker, the main type of person I would imagine I would need to use a gun on.

 

[AJC1]

I agree, but you also see how focusing so much on avoiding over penetration, opens up the door for under penetration? The last person you want your self defense ammo to not work on is a huge attacker, the main type of person I would imagine I would need to use a gun on.

Energy transfer is the crucial element. Even getting shot in a bullet proof vest can be incapacitating and there is zero penetration

 

[ThomasT]

I agree, but you also see how focusing so much on avoiding over penetration, opens up the door for under penetration? The last person you want your self defense ammo to not work on is a huge attacker, the main type of person I would imagine I would need to use a gun on.

This is why I like flat point solids. They have a little more slap when they land but still dig deep.

 

[Buzznrose]

True. That's why at this point, I've decided to go with the new 135 Grain Federal Hydra Shok Deep. Consistent 15" of penetration in FBI protocol bare gel tests.

But, also maybe FMJ isn't dead, and still has a place in self defense? I mean, at least you KNOW it's gonna penetrate. And for people like those pictured, especially if the bullet has to go through an arm, JHP might not meet it's one stipulation, it must first sufficiently penetrate. I know, these people are rare, but still, handguns are supposed to be the great Equalizer, no matter how big the person. Isn't that kind of the original premise? Something to think about.

I am sure someone is going to correct me on some of these points, but after really looking at a lot of tech articles and videos, I absolutely believe FMJ's haver a role in self defense.

In my mind, the ONLY real advantage of hollow points is their limited penetration. The big "advancements" in bullet tech that's made the 9MM the darling of self defense today is the construction of modern JHP rounds that expand, hold together, and generally penetrate deep enough based on the FBI criteria. If you listen to some folks today onto Interwebs, you'd think modern FMJ ammo will "bounce off" or deflect from bad guys.

All my urban/suburban carry ammo magazines are mostly loaded with modern JHP ammo, mostly standard pressure, heavy for caliber rounds. Based on a very good tech article I read on the Buffalo Bore website, I typically add several flat nose FMJ rounds at the bottom of the magazines because if I'm still alive and fighting back in a bad situation that goes beyond a few rounds, I may be shooting through cover. I know...Rule #4...but I'm having a very bad day already at this point.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=174

For the boonies, I will mainly load a few heavy JHP's first, but the rest of the magazines will be flan nose JHP of hard cast rounds because either I WANT penetration or I'm not concerned about over penetration.

YMMV

 

[LookAtYou]

This is why I like flat point solids. They have a little more slap when they land but still dig deep.

Is what you're referring to the "Flat Point FMJ"? I thought about it, but everyone is extremely quick to "NO, ITZ GONNA OVER PENETRATE AND MURDER EVERYONE BEHIND THE PERSON". Do you think "over penetration" is a tad bit, or maybe a lot of bit, overblown out the wazoo? I mean, isn't it much more likely for someone to just completely miss and hit an innocent?

 

[Buzznrose]

This is why I like flat point solids. They have a little more slap when they land but still dig deep.

The biggest advantage to a flat nose bullet is that they generally travel in a much straighter path than a round nose that will deflect much more readily.

 

[Buzznrose]

Is what you're referring to the "Flat Point FMJ"? I thought about it, but everyone is extremely quick to "NO, ITZ GONNA OVER PENETRATE AND MURDER EVERYONE BEHIND THE PERSON". Do you think "over penetration" is a tad bit, or maybe a lot of bit, overblown out the wazoo? I mean, isn't it much more likely for someone to just completely miss and hit an innocent?

Everyone wants to talk about over penetration being a huge concern, but the primary concern should be NOT MISSING your target! Misses are WAY worse on an unintended target than a bullet that travels through a torso that has already expended a LOT of energy.

 

[LaneP]

Is what you're referring to the "Flat Point FMJ"? I thought about it, but everyone is extremely quick to "NO, ITZ GONNA OVER PENETRATE AND MURDER EVERYONE BEHIND THE PERSON". Do you think "over penetration" is a tad bit, or maybe a lot of bit, overblown out the wazoo? I mean, isn't it much more likely for someone to just completely miss and hit an innocent?

Exactly. I long ago gave up concerns of "over penetration" with defense ammunition. If anything you need to ensure you have enough penetration, particularly when it's likely the case that most shots never hit their intended target to begin with.

 

[LookAtYou]

Energy transfer is the crucial element. Even getting shot in a bullet proof vest can be incapacitating and there is zero penetration

I've heard this "energy dump" theory before. First, handguns don't cause hydrostatic shock. So, say you're comparing a Flat Point FMJ and a HST JHP. As long as both of them adequately penetrate to vitals, and the JHP expands fully, what else is the energy doing? The JHP isn't gonna make a bigger hole than whatever the expanded diameter is, so.... what else happens? The Flat Point FMJ will likely go completely through the person, causing an exit wound, which definitely aids in blood loss. What does this magical "energy dump" do? It's not gonna make a bigger hole than the expanded bullet itself (hydrostatic shock), so....?

 

[JTQ]

True. That's why at this point, I've decided to go with the new 135 Grain Federal Hydra Shok Deep. Consistent 15" of penetration in FBI protocol bare gel tests.

But, also maybe FMJ isn't dead, and still has a place in self defense? I mean, at least you KNOW it's gonna penetrate. And for people like those pictured, especially if the bullet has to go through an arm, JHP might not meet it's one stipulation, it must first sufficiently penetrate. I know, these people are rare, but still, handguns are supposed to be the great Equalizer, no matter how big the person. Isn't that kind of the original premise? Something to think about.

Go over to the revolver sub-forum and ask the guys that hunt with handguns what bullet they're using.

 

[Obturation]

I've heard this "energy dump" theory before. First, handguns don't cause hydrostatic shock. So, say you're comparing a Flat Point FMJ and a HST JHP. As long as both of them adequately penetrate to vitals, and the JHP expands fully, what else is the energy doing? The JHP isn't gonna make a bigger hole than whatever the expanded diameter is, so.... what else happens? The Flat Point FMJ will likely go completely through the person, causing an exit wound, which definitely aids in blood loss. What does this magical "energy dump" do? It's not gonna make a bigger hole than the expanded bullet itself (hydrostatic shock), so....?

Energy absorbed by the target will do more damage , a bullet that exits expends remaining energy into the backstop. So if 2 bullets of the same weight, diameter and velocity (both having equal muzzle energy) are used, the one that expends all it energy into the target will be more effective (assuming identical shot placement). Of course this too is on paper. As far as the no hydrostatic shock thing, opinions vary. Permanent wound cavity size doesn't tell the whole story.

 

[LookAtYou]

Energy absorbed by the target will do more damage , a bullet that exits expends remaining energy into the backstop. So if 2 bullets of the same weight, diameter and velocity (both having equal muzzle energy) are used, the one that expends all it energy into the target will be more effective (assuming identical shot placement). Of course this too is on paper. As far as the no hydrostatic shock thing, opinions vary. Permanent wound cavity size doesn't tell the whole story.

So you say energy absorbed by the target will do more damage? I've come to learn that only permanent wound cavity is relevant in bodies, so if handguns lack the velocity to achieve hydrostatic shock, especially 9mm, .40's, and .45's, then what damage is the absorbed energy doing? I thought "handguns only poke holes". JHP'S, due to expanding, make a slightly bigger hole, but still not bigger than the bullet/petals itself, otherwise, that's hydrostatic shock. If not a bigger wound, what is the absorbed energy doing if it's not going toward penetration or expansion anymore? The way I see it, it's just a psychological factor at most, because you might feel you got hit harder?

 

[ThomasT]

Is what you're referring to the "Flat Point FMJ"? I thought about it, but everyone is extremely quick to "NO, ITZ GONNA OVER PENETRATE AND MURDER EVERYONE BEHIND THE PERSON". Do you think "over penetration" is a tad bit, or maybe a lot of bit, overblown out the wazoo? I mean, isn't it much more likely for someone to just completely miss and hit an innocent?

Yes. Flat Point FMJ bullets. I like the 124gr in 9mm especially in my Marlin Camp Carbine rifle. Can they over penetrate? Yes and thats why I like them. But with their lighter weight they won't have a lot of punch left when they exit. But a 300gr flat point bullet from a 44 mag will go for a long way after shooting through a deer or similar sized meat target.

 

[Obturation]

So you say energy absorbed by the target will do more damage? I've come to learn that only permanent wound cavity is relevant in bodies, so if handguns lack the velocity to achieve hydrostatic shock, especially 9mm, .40's, and .45's, then what damage is the absorbed energy doing? I thought "handguns only poke holes". JHP'S, due to expanding, make a slightly bigger hole, but still not bigger than the bullet/petals itself, otherwise, that's hydrostatic shock. If not a bigger wound, what is the absorbed energy doing if it's not going toward penetration or expansion anymore? The way I see it, it's just a psychological factor at most, because you might feel you got hit harder?

I don't have that info honestly. I just know what I've observed from years of shooting things. Like when you see a gel block get flung off the table while a more powerful bullet zings right through without moving the block. The absorbed energy is more than psychological but it's a factor that isn't measured and since every shot and situation is different it's very tough to compare .

 

[ThomasT]

Every bullet design has a purpose. Even FMJ solids. If someone doen't like FMJ bullets then don't buy them. And there are some areas and countries where hollow points are illegal to own. So guess what they carry? A FMJ round nose bullet well penetrate like crazy. The flat points not as much but better than an expanded hollow point. And just because you have a hollow point doesn't guarantee it will open or that even if it opens it will stop in the target.

 

[LookAtYou]

I don't have that info honestly. I just know what I've observed from years of shooting things. Like when you see a gel block get flung off the table while a more powerful bullet zings right through without moving the block. The absorbed energy is more than psychological but it's a factor that isn't measured and since every shot and situation is different it's very tough to compare .

I think temporary wound cavity is irrelevant, unless it's a rifle round that produces hydrostatic shock. I think gel blocks overdo the temp wound cavity compared to what actually happens in a body anyways due to tissue being elastic. Also, know how sometimes you can see a flame igniting in gel due to the oils in it? Not happening in a body. Also, I've never seen a 9mm, .40, or .45 fling a gel block off it's platform, only magnums, rifles, and shotguns.

 

[GEM]

There is no way to save this thread from bickering and incorrect baloney.

Thus closed.