Penetration question for self defense

[Big JJ]

We have all seen ballistics gel test where the bullet penetrates 9 to 12 inches or what ever it does consistently in the gel.
While these test/ demonstrations are very helpful it raises a the question about bullets exiting the body.
Ex: If an average male chest cavity is say 9 or 10 inches and the bullet then exits on a pass through, how fast(fps) and how much energy does it have left if it hits someone else.
Has anyone did a ballistics gel test like this where they shoot through a gel block and then measure the exit with a chronograph?
After enough test like this it should lead us to the best bullet weight and FPS for a bullet to do max amount of damage without exiting to fast and then injuring someone else.
I understand there will be a lot of variables to this test just wanting to know if anyone has seen this type of test and if so where at?
I am thinking the best type of load will be some of our very common loads in the common calibers of 380,38 special plus P,357mag low speed,40, 44 special and 45acp.

 

[19-3Ben]

Don't know if it can be done, or if the little bits of gel that come flying out the exit hole would fool the chronograph and mess up the reading.

Very interesting question though.

 

[Big JJ]

Very good point.
Maybe that is why it hasn't been done yet?
I have never seen an exit chronograph reading out of a block of gel that would approx a human chest cavity.
Maybe in the future

 

[hatt]

I'd be more concerned with rounds that missed vs rounds that exited. You're never going to come up with an ideal solution with existing technology. If you have a bullet that you know won't exit on an ideal shot what happens if you shoot through the perp's arm while he's point a gun/shooting at you? Or any other of a million scenarios.

 

[C0untZer0]

I've thought about this too because I've read where bullets were found lodged in the rear of the ribcage or found in the inside lining of the jacket they were wearing after exiting their back.

Brassfetcher does some tests with simulated bone and gelatin:

9x19mm JHP performance through Bone Simulant plates
With Ballistic Gelatin backing

 

[C0untZer0]

The problem that I see with 380 AUTO is the FMJs - even flat nosed, seem to zip right on through 18" blocks of ballistic gelatin, and the hollow points don't seem to go much deeper than 10"

 

[rcmodel]

NO gunfight rule says you only get to shoot one shot with a .380, or any other caliber.

A few out of a mag full are bound to be Just Right on penetration.

rc

 

[Sentryau2]

I would like to see something done with one of the human balistic gel dummies that deadliest warrior uses (horrible show from an authentic aspect or a medical aspect)

 

[eldon519]

I think I read once that human skin on the exit side is supposed to be able to stop a bullet that has about 3-4" worth of tissue penetration left in it. In case that isn't worded clearly, example: a bullet that averages 12-14" of penetration would have a decent chance of being stopped by the exit-side skin on a human with a 10" thick chest cavity. I think the skin stretches and has a bit of a trampoline effect; it can also separate from the tissue beneath. I think this is why it is not uncommon for hunters to find their bullet on the other side of a game animal just under the hide. Many game animals have even tougher skin than humans, so their hide may be able to stop a bullet from exiting even better than ours.

 

[Cump]

Listened to an interview of the cop who was handcuffed to Lee Harvey Oswald when he was shot. He described the trajectory of Ruby's 38 special through Oswald's chest, cracking a rib and stopping just under the skin of Oswald's back. He said the bullet could be moved around a little under the skin, suggesting some separation from the muscle tissue. If not for the rib, and maybe the skin, he would have likely been hit too.

 

[Big JJ]

Gun fight rules
There ain't no sinking rules in a gun fight.
Real question is can we get defensive rounds they will do the job and if they exit cause minimal damage when exiting.
I believe that penetration test should be based on an average male advancing forward towards you.(I.e.chest cavity width)
I do not want to ever decrease penetration below what will get the job done.
I would love to develop loads that wii fully penetrate the chest cavity and then be going so slow that the would not accidentally kill someone behind the assailant.
Yes I understand that there isn't any thing we can do to get a perfect load because of the multiple situation that we encounter.
But if we could develop a load that would do the damage we need in a self defense situation and then exit the chest and hit someone 3 feet behind them and not inflect a deadly wound that would be the best self defense round in my opinion. It does not matter what caliber it just needs to get the the job done first and then do as little damage as possible when exiting.
Not sure it is possible but I think with today technology and ballistics tools to measure fps with gel test blocks I am sure we can come close.
Maybe this is a project for the reloaders forum.

 

[stressed]

Problem is, firing through 9" - 12" of gel isn't the same as firing through 9" - 12" of flesh, muscle, organs and bone.

 

[PistolPete45]

Some calibers are known for over penetration With a good hollow point you will cut that back drastically I am thinking of the hard ball 9MM and 40 S&W .. slower moving 45 ACP is not much of a problem .. Heavy coat or jackets might plug up a hollow point . I like my 45 ACP and 44 special for self defense, That big heavy slow moving bullet. To each his own every caliber has its good points.

 

[rcmodel]

firing through 9" - 12" of gel isn't the same as firing through 9" - 12" of flesh, muscle, organs and bone.

Don't leave out the few inches of air.

The lungs are mostly full of air & blood.

rc

 

[ugaarguy]

12" of penetration in calibrated ballistic gel is the FBI minimum. The first three inches of penetration in ballistic gel is equivalent to the elasticity of human skin. Then, you have factor in variables like heavy clothing, bone, obesity, and the target being at an angle rather than straight on.

 

[JohnBT]

Or it might hit a billfold. After penetrating 6 or 7 credit cards, the tip of the bullet exited the back of the wallet far enough to crack the glass on the phone he was carrying behind the wallet.

The .380 was one of at least 4 fired from across the street and the only one that hit him. He was carrying his stuff in the front pocket of his hoodie.

www.washingtonpost.com/local/crime/...58d45a-5060-11e3-9e2c-e1d01116fd98_story.html

 

[Vodoun da Vinci]

Yeah...personally I like 15"+ of penetration and I'm not a big fan of hollow points except in calibers and speed levels that can deliver that kind of penetration *and* get expansion.

That's a lot of power. This is why handguns in general are poor combat weapons. By the time you get 15+" of penetration and hope for expansion you are shooting a canon that is likely a little on the big side for complete concealment and bucks like a bronco in rapid fire. This is manageable if yer a big and experienced hand gunner but difficult if you are...not.

Placement is critical as are multiple rounds placed accurately.

13" of penetration in ballistic gel is not the equivalent on a human target. I can't imagine how much "umph" a bullet needs to penetrate a large male BG at an angle through a winter coat. But it's a lot if we want enough energy left to disable and stop.

VooDoo

 

[Big JJ]

You guys are really trying to complicate the problem.
All of the comments that you have been posted are right on.
I am not questioning you logic or facts.
There are gazillions variables.
That said lets get off of the rejection train and move on to the question.
My question is this can we as a group come up with a rounds or rounds of different calibers that will do the job and upon exiting do the smallest amount of damage possible?
My thoughts are that we should have min penetration of gel block to establish some type of baseline average and it should be enough to get the job done.
When we come to some type of consensus on what the number in inches is then we can move on to the next step.
The next step in my mind is to establish a Chronographic reading going into and exiting the test gel block.
That will gives us the fps/energy that is left in the round and we should then be able to take that fps/energy reading and apply it to another gel block to see what amount of penetration we get from the left over fps/energy in the exiting round.
I realize this could be exhausting work so does anyone know if this type of testing been done and if so where could I get the results.
I am not asking about the FBI testing. I know about that testing and while it is good for there purposes it just does not apply to the question I have raised.

 

[hatt]

If you're that worried about overpenetration get a round that doesn't penetrate very much. There is no magic bullet they'll drop out the back of the bad guy every time.

As I pointed out, what about the rounds that miss? If you're that good a shoot to know you'll never miss use Glaser Safety Slugs and head shots.

 

[Comrade Mike]

Some calibers are known for over penetration With a good hollow point you will cut that back drastically I am thinking of the hard ball 9MM and 40 S&W .. slower moving 45 ACP is not much of a problem .. Heavy coat or jackets might plug up a hollow point . I like my 45 ACP and 44 special for self defense, That big heavy slow moving bullet. To each his own every caliber has its good points.

I thought this myth was crushed in the 90ies. Modern hollow points will still expand with a plugged tip.

 

[bubba in ca]

brassfetcher and box of truth have a lot of testing.

Netnet, balistic gel in a uniform substance that is good for testing different calibers and different bullets. The 12 inch standard is an arbitrary standard set by the FBI.

Best bet: get something in the 12 to 15 inch range for the brand and load of your ammo in a barrel of the same length as your gun and concentrate on hitting your target.

 

[Riomouse911]

The bullet you've fired from your 9mm,.40,45 .357, etc...will not have a lot of residual energy left over after penetrating the torso of a crook you just shot. (Huge magnum handguns , shotgun slugs, or rifles notwithstanding; they often have plenty of power to spare). A passed-through bullet might dent or bruise somebody behind him/her, but it will not have anywhere near the ooomph that it had when it was originally fired. Velocity/energy loss is so dramatic when handgun bullets hit resistance like human bodies it leaves little juice left should one exit. Honestly, unless the crook and the bystander are standing nuts to butts in a "sandwich" formation, don't worry all that much about it. .

As was posted earlier, One needs to hit him not miss him, as the #1 cause of "bystander injuries" is misses...rarely (if ever) is it pass-through bullets fired from conventional defensive handguns. Confidence and experience with your handgun will make that task a lot easier to acomplish under the tremendous stresses of that life or death confrontation.

 

[TrueTexan]

Having been an EMT and later a ER nurse I have seen multiple GSWs both on the living and the dead. Rarely do you have an exit wound to the torso, not to say it doesn't happen. The worse damage wounds you see are from close range buckshot.

 

[smkummer]

Oswald and Jack Ruby

Is was a single shot out of Jack Ruby's Colt Cobra 2 in. 38 special to the side of the ribs that took out Oswald. I may be getting off course here but a 38 special with the right load is no pip squeak. I have seen the bullet at gunshows, so I guess it did not exit.