Hollow Pointing A Cap N Ball Boolit

[rodwha]

I've heard plenty on both sides stating a pure lead ball does/does not expand. I watched a video in which a ball traveling ~900 fps did not expand, which makes me reconsider having one or two cavities in my new mold hollow pointed.

A concern of mine is the ram greatly marring/filling the cavity. If the ram were reshaped to the profile of the nose would it keep the nose from being distorted under seating pressure?

I've emailed Erik at Hollow Point Molds to see if I sent my ram if he could reduce the length ~1/8" and reshape it to that of the nose, but I'm not even certain this would keep the nose from being marred.

One of the bullets is the 170C (Accurate Molds), which is only .400" long. I'm thinking that I wouldn't want the cavity to go more than halfway through as I don't want fragmentation. But would that even be enough meat at the rear to ensure it stays whole? I'm also considering having one of the 195C (.460" long) cavities done as well, and wonder just have far back one could go? These have a .375" meplat.

Assuming that the ram can be modified would I need the walls of the hollow point rather thick?

I intend on pushing these 900-1200 fps (if I can get them that fast).

http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_deta...=45-170C-D.png

http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_deta...=45-195C-D.png

Experiences and thoughts?

 

[351 WINCHESTER]

I loaded a few cylinders off the gun with a hammer and a punch. Ended up with some very nice h/p, but was unable to test them in any media. No, they were not perfect, but probably close enough.

 

[vagunmonkey]

Have you modified your forcing cone ? I'm not sure if the hollow points will work, but I know opening the cylinders up .001 over groove diameter and modifying the forcing cone has worked wonders. I believe the forcing cone would be key...

 

[rodwha]

I've only modified the hand, bolt, and hammer face. I'm not aware of any issues with the forcing cone, though I've seen it offered for the ROA, and if it could be modified for better use I'm sure a repro could.

What kind of angle would the forcing cone need?

 

[Modernhoglegs]

I don't understand your objective in putting hollow point bullets in a percussion revolver.

1. The roundball has low sectional density due to its shape.
2. During the heyday of the roundball the main way to improve ballistic performance was to increase the diameter of the projectile.
3. The "nose" of the roundball is about as blunt as a bullet can be short of a wadcutter.
4. Conical bullets have more sectional density, so they should penetrate further in the target, but they take up more room in the chamber reducing powder charges and lowering velocity.
5. Hollow point bullets require a minimum velocity before the cavity will open reliably. If this were not true, .38 Special snubnose revolvers would have a much better rep as fight stoppers.
6. One of the more common requirements of a defense bullet is to stop in the target to minimize danger to bystanders.

I admit that I have never run any gel tests on my percussion revolvers, so I have no scietific data to provide. Based on my study of the Lyman "Blackpowder Handbook", Sam Fadala's "Blackpowder Loading Manual" an average , and the work of Dr. Fackler as compared to that of Ed Sanow and Evan Marshall, I believe the 44 caliber roundball to meet the "standard" requirements of a defense bullet.

The .44-.45 caliber roundball should behave approximately like a 45 ACP hardball round in terms of the wound it creates. The lower sectional density of the roundball would make it much more likely to expend all of its energy in the target.

I don't see how an HP conical would be able to improve on the roundball because I'm not convinced the cavity would expand significantly. YMMV.

I'd like to understand your goal.

 

[rodwha]

This is the bigger goal:

6. One of the more common requirements of a defense bullet is to stop in the target to minimize danger to bystanders.

The RB went something like 24" in the gel and didn't create a great wound cavity compared to a HP.

I'm not really sure what velocity is needed to ensure expansion, but I was told a pure lead ball ought to expand from 800 fps on, which wasn't the case in the video where it went ~900 fps with no expansion.

Let me go through your list:

1) I'm not even sure why it behaves the way it does. According to what is "known" from the late 80's on we need sectional density to penetrate well. I was completely amazed that a RB could penetrate through a deer out at 100 yds and more. And I was also of the mind that plenty of energy was needed, so when I saw these only had ~300-400 ft/lbs I was nearly floored. Actually I was skeptical for a while.

3) A ball isn't blunt though. A typical modern RN seems more blunt, but a WFN is certainly blunt.

5) This is part of my problem. Modern stuff has a jacket that behaves differently. I've asked the old timers about the speed necessary for pure lead to expand and I was told ~800 fps. This ball was traveling faster and did not expand. My initial thought was a wide FN of pure lead ought to expand more easily and from that point. I'm not sure it would though. Enough gel is expensive.

6) 20"+ is too much penetration for around the house. I have neighbors and they aren't far.

Even if it didn't expand it certainly couldn't perform any worse, though it would likely penetrate more.

 

[vagunmonkey]

Rodwha - excuse me for having a momentary brian fart I was thinking hollow base (such as a minie) not hollow point :banghead: Being a HP or not would have no impact on the forcing cone.

However when I had my Remington accurized the forcing cone was cut at 11 degrees.

 

[rodwha]

I've certainly had those myself!

I believe I've seen an 11* forcing cone mod for the ROA as well. Apparently even it could use some help?

 

[Bezoar]

at 25 yards i can only get a hornady swagd 454 roundball to go halfway max into a paper bag filled with newspaper to the point the bag wants to start ripping. that was with 30 grains of powder.

 

[AbitNutz]

I had the folks at Lee's Gunsmithing true-up the barrel face and cut an 11 degree forcing cone. Does it help? Probably. Like any production barrel any detail attention seems to improve things.

Unfortunately, I think that Lee's Gunsmithing is no more but I'm sure David Clements does the same thing.

rodwha! You've stolen my idea about putting a hollow point seater on the ROA ram. I have a couple of rams and one of them has a brass seater already on it. Erik already made me a HP seating jag for my off gun loader and it works perfectly.

I think the idea that may work really well is to shorten the ram and then drill and tap it for a brass HP jag...just like the one he already do for me. That way you could even interchange them for different HP profiles if you felt the need. Plus brass is easier to work with and looks cool.

With a HP ram point and a heel for seating in the cylinder....I bet it would be a breeze to load.

Also...if you get a deepened cylinder or better yet, a Classicballistx...I was told how you can get 47 grains of Triple 7 in with zero compression. That will push a ball/bullet at something over 1200fps. You'll need harder lead...no soft lead for this load.

Sounds impossible? But as soon as I was told how to do it I laughed. I knew it would absolutely work...haven't tried it yet but I know it will work....

 

[rodwha]

Erik wanted to tap my ram. I told him I didn't care much about the profile of a ball, and if it gave it a flat spot as that's where the sprue is anyway. I figured I'll mostly shoot my boolits anyway.

Does this hollow point seater have a spike in the center so as not to distort the cavity?

I'd like a WFN face to my ram as all 3 of my designs have the same .375" meplat, but I'm concerned the seating force might cave in the cavity a bit, which isn't terrible as long as it's minor and doesn't effect it's ability to expand. I'm wondering if thick walls would be enough to keep it from distorting the face.

 

[AbitNutz]

The jag, or hollow point seater, does have a spike in the middle. It is pretty much exactly the reverse profile of the hollow point. I use it on my off gun loader. It does not squish or deform the bullet at all. It works really well.

Since Erik did the hollow point conversion and made the jag/seater at the same time...I'm sure that helped him get it pretty much just right.

 

[Modernhoglegs]

800 fps is indeed the traditional answer for the .38 Special 158gr LSWHP bullet. I encounter most of those references in material related to the "FBI Load" in the snubnose.

Years ago I saw an ad for a ramrod jag that consisted of a sharp spike in the middle and 4 surrounding "blades" that looked kind of like a broadhead arrow point. It was attached to the ramrod and used to seat the roundball. This caused the point to create a hollow in the front of the ball and the blades cut X shaped grooves radiating from the hollow. The bullets that were recovered from gel looked like 4 leaf clovers.

I checked online for this gizmo, but it seems to have passed on.

If you were to drill and tap the ram face and install a short spike with a square cross-section, I think you might get the effect you want. the force of seating the ball would drive the spike into the ball creating the hollow. If you didn't want HPs just unscrew the spike.

This would be an easy thing to try without risking expensive replacement parts.

 

[kituwa]

I dont think balistic gel is really a very good comparison to what a bullet will do in game in most cases, there are too many variables. It may be good for comparing what one bullet does compared to another though. For the most part, with a hand gun of any kind, what you are going to do is poke a hole.There isnt a great deal of hydralic shock like you get with a fast rifle bullet. Most guys that have used handguns a lot on big game trust in the heavy flat nose type bullets that dont expand. I have a good bit of experiance with handguns on both deer and hogs and have found that hollow points of any kind are very unreliable. Sometimes they open up great like they are supossed to and other times with an identicle hit they dont deform at all. I am pretty sure the stories and photo's that you see of the horrific wounds from the civil war from round balls were from the ball hitting bone and it was actually the bone fragments that cased the massive damage not from the ball expanding. The good thing is, .44 is big enough without expanding to do what needs to be done and does a real good job! A .44 round ball starting off at 900fps does things it shouldnt be able to do according to paper balistics.

 

[swathdiver]

Round ball doesn't need to expand. It does plenty of damage just passing through and smashing through its target.

 

[PRM]

6. One of the more common requirements of a defense bullet is to stop in the target to minimize danger to bystanders - Modernhoglegs

I've heard that bantered around for years and never saw the rational to it. All the FBI stats over a number of years say that under stress (police shootings) the hit ratio is 2 out of 10 rounds. It seems misplaced to worry about the 2 rounds that actually hit the target over-penetrating VS the 8 that sped past it. It does make a good argument for shot placement being the critical factor.

 

[AbitNutz]

Amen!

 

[Crawdad1]

Here is a penetration test I did. Using a phone book I shot my 1860 Army loaded with 30 grains of 3Fg and 451 round ball at 25 paces. Here are pics of the white pages phone book. No ball penetrated through but some came close and three of the recovered round balls from the test. The pic is a side view of the phone book showing the penetration, the top of the book is where the RB entered. A phone book is a pretty thick medium.
Your thoughts?

 

[rodwha]

"...passing through…"

That's a part of the problem that I'm wanting to diminish. Even if I didn't hit a neighbor it still damages his house and belongings.

 

[rodwha]

I'm curious how many pages those balls went through. I've seen a .31 cal that used a max load of T7 that made it nearly 800 pages and expanded to .40 cal.

Did the balls tend to change course upon entry? Or were they fired at an angle?

Were the phone books wet or dry? And how does that effect the performance of a projectile?

 

[Crawdad1]

Rodwha, I can't recall how thick the book was or the number of pages they penetrated. I was using GOEX 3Fg for the testing and the book was dry. But a 31 cal. made it through 800 pages of a phone book using T7? That's impressive.

 

[Crawdad1]

I remember a Myth Busters episode where they put two phone books together overlapping them page by page and then tried to pull them apart. Two cars couldn't do it and it took a tank to pull them apart. Phone books are very tough. How that relates to this, I don't know.

 

[Jim K]

And all this is about carrying a percussion revolver for defense against what? Another Yankee attack on the Texican coast? If you want to have fun, shoot a c&b revolver; if you want to stop bad guys, buy a Glock.

Jim

 

[AbitNutz]

Are you suggesting the Yankees were the bad guys?

 

[Crawdad1]

Or buy a c&b revolver and have fun stopping bad guys!!!!