C-grunt
Member
Does anyone know or know of a study about which hollowpoints expand reliably. Im pretty sure all good SD hollowpoints will do the job but Id like to know which ones are the most reliable at expanding.
Hollowpoint expansion?
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Lennyjoe
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armoredman
Member
User fee $100 for one year.
the only thing i can say is dont base all of the decisions on jello testing. in his book by evan marshal on hadgun stopping power the human body is not consistant but jello is. for example the 200gr speer hollow point ( flying ashtray ) the bullet will expand reliably but when a swat team entered a home and shots were fired,it failed to expand although the person did go down because of surgical shot placement NOT of bullet performance.soo jello testing the bullet expanded but not in a person. thats some food for thought. 
http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp here is the one that i trust because its actual street results and NOT jello testing.im not against jello testing but im not going to stake my life on it though. 
Oh no, not again..... :banghead:
Ignore the Marshal-Sanow book, which was discredited as fiction by the wound ballistics community years ago.
Member here Shawn Dodson has a nice site WWW.firearmstactical.com, which will steer you in the right directions.
There are some disagreements in the WB community, but at least most of those who do it for a living base their opinions on facts and science.
And properly calibrated gelatin has been shown to be an extremely accurate predictor of a bullets performance in human tissue. The kind of anecdotal information you'll find in the gunzines is pretty much worthless.
Gunwriters are usually the worst source of information.
Ignore the Marshal-Sanow book, which was discredited as fiction by the wound ballistics community years ago.
Member here Shawn Dodson has a nice site WWW.firearmstactical.com, which will steer you in the right directions.
There are some disagreements in the WB community, but at least most of those who do it for a living base their opinions on facts and science.
And properly calibrated gelatin has been shown to be an extremely accurate predictor of a bullets performance in human tissue. The kind of anecdotal information you'll find in the gunzines is pretty much worthless.
Gunwriters are usually the worst source of information.
Here's a link to a review of the Marshal-Sanow book. Pretty much proves the book is BS. It's co-written by someone who Marshal said he obtained data on some of the shootings in the book from. He never gave it to him.
Stopping Power book review
Stopping Power book review
well,im sorry that you think that evan marshals a fraud but theres a lot of police officers on his site that disagrees with ya.and yes ive read his books.however like he states at his website,if anyone out there can PROVE his literature to be false then WHY dont others out there come up with their own shooting data ,i think that there must be alot of professional jealousy against him.he just happen to be smart enough to figure out on how to come up with the info.
,i think that there must be alot of professional jealousy against him.he just happen to be smart enough to figure out on how to come up with the info. and theres one more thing that i will add here. everyone out there wants to know the sources for the info thats inside of his books,however knowing the sensitive nature of the info inside his books i can understand as to why he wont release the info.he could get his rear end sued off because the info was collected from various police depts out there,plus ammo makers could get involved in the lawsuites with them.yes,ive been to the links that you provided before,all it is is pure charactor assasination pure and simple.his data is very sound,and it ruined alot of preconceived ideas of what WILL work and what WONT work.
I find it odd that you read the link and got that out of it. The review was co-written by two well respected members of the International Wound Ballistics Association. One of them, Gene Wolberg, authored many papers on wound ballistics, some of which are still used as standards today. He was the chief ballistics expert for the San Diego Police Department, and testified as a court expert all over the country.
Marshal claimed to have received shooting data from Wolberg, which Wolberg publicly stated he never gave to Marshal. Since Marshal claimed in his book to have data to support all the shootings used for his "study", and Wolberg challenged him to provide it, because he never sent it to him, it puts in question all the conclusions in his book.
Most cops know almost nothing of wound ballistics, so the fact that many read his articles doesn't lend any credibility to Marshal.
Not sure how you came to that opinion, but you're certainly entitled to it.
Lennyjoe
Member
I remember when you could drop into ammolab and see all the test results for free.
mspears
Member
We need to keep this in perspective. Evan Marshall is a highly respected individual that has provided us with some very interesting and valuable real world shooting data to mull over. The International Wound Ballistics Association also provides some interesting statistics to throw in the equation, but should not discredit anyone elses study to make theirs look 'correct' and right. Personally, I'll read, study and contemplate anyones honest effort to provide us with stopping power performance data so we may use our powers of self discernment in choosing the carry load that we may have to defend our life with.
Read all the reports you can get your hands on and make your own decision based on what you believe is the truth, but remember that shot placement is the number one criteria for stopping power performance, not the newest, greatest hollowpoint bullet. Beside, the 'bullet' is just a small part of the total self defense issue anyway. There are many other factors that contribute to ones' survival in a self defense situation.
Read all the reports you can get your hands on and make your own decision based on what you believe is the truth, but remember that shot placement is the number one criteria for stopping power performance, not the newest, greatest hollowpoint bullet. Beside, the 'bullet' is just a small part of the total self defense issue anyway. There are many other factors that contribute to ones' survival in a self defense situation.
Can we get this straight?
Evan Marshal wrote a book, where he purported to have studied "street shootings," and gave numerical values to various caliber's and rounds rating their "one shot stop" probabilities. One extremely well respected member of the IWBA, a full time ballistics expert from a major police department, who was listed as a source for some of the data, publicly stated he never gave it to Marshal. Wolberg had no competitive book, no axe to grind, he was just stating facts. Since Marshal claimed to have exaustive reports to back up all the shooting data in the book, and Wolberg never sent any to him, this placed the veracity of the book in question.
The public loves the idea of a 96% one shot stop bullet. Since the scientific community can't give them these kind of numbers, there's room for other folks to do it. And facts and data don't seem to be necessary.
So enjoy reading whatever you choose, and pick your ammo on whatever data, or lack of data you wish. But there are folks studying this subject everyday, doing it for a living, that you'll have to seek out their information. Their information is dry, and hard to read, but it's based on science, and is subject to the review of the rest of the wound ballistics community.
armoredman
Member
I will keep shooting until the BG ceases his felonious assault. I like a high "one shot stop" percentage, but I am not betting on one shot!
Actually, the aforementioned Gene Wolberg did complete a peer reviewed study of the shhoting in which the San Diego PD was involved. He documented that there is very good correlation between the results obtain in properly mixed and calibrated ballistic gelatin and what actually happened when a bullet a human body.
A current generation premium 147-grain .36 calibre JHP will reliably deliver good penetration and expansion with a MV as low ~950-1000 fps. A current generation premium 230-grain .45 calibre JHP will reliabily penetrate and expand with a MV as low ~850-900 fps.
A current generation premium 147-grain .36 calibre JHP will reliably deliver good penetration and expansion with a MV as low ~950-1000 fps. A current generation premium 230-grain .45 calibre JHP will reliabily penetrate and expand with a MV as low ~850-900 fps.
For you young guys that haven't been around as long as I have, Evan Marshall was a homiside detective in Detroit. His job was attending autopsies. His personal carry weapon was a S&W 25 45 long colt. His information was the only information in the 80's and early 90's. Since has data didn't support the 9mm most people try to discredit his data. I have not read any of his later data.
Indeed. That was one of the definitive pieces of Gene's work I alluded to in my earlier post. I helped Gene make the gelatin for some of that study. Gene's work continued until his untimely death in 2000.
Looking at dead bodies as a homicide investigator is interesting, but usually the information gleaned becomes anecdotal. The Gunwriters with an ax to grind, and sometimes financial interests in ammunition companies, have tried to discredit the work that Gene, Fackler and other's have done. But thankfully, many large departments, and some small ones, have forensic firearms personnel, who can sift through the BS and get to the science.
So like I said, enjoy your reading, and select whichever triple whizzbang, dollar-a-shot round the latest gunzine tells you has an 111% "one shot stop" percentage. Most likely, you'll never have to find out if you were being shucked.
I got a big kick out of Mas Ayoob pretending to be objective while he was the NE distributor for CorBon. I've read articles by Ed Sanow that should have been labeled an "infomercial" instead of an article. They're good for selling snake oil but nothing much else.
Back on topic, you should look for gelatin tests where the bullets were fired through 4 layers of denim. The denim test is much harsher than most obstacles a bullet is likely to face "on the street," and studies have shown that bullets which perform consistently through denim also work consistently against humans.
Well, there is some controversy on the 4 layer denim test. Some feel it was written to favor one particular bullet, that seems to work well in it, even though that bullet doesn't perform as well though some of the other protocols. Myself, I'm not sure how realistic 4 layers of denim is, compared to the traditional heavy clothing test. In cold climates you may have several layers of clothing, but probably not four layers of denim.
armoredman
Member
OK, where are those test results? I am always willing to look. BTW, Even tested some 9mm rounds that came up fine. Anyone who used to go to his stoppingpower website would know he did not restrict himself to morgue studies, but also did extensive jello testing as well. That's why I carry what I have, and don't worry extremely much about it. Perhaps when big $ come back in to my life, I'll start buying the high end stuff again, but for now, I will concentrate on putting my 115gr high speed pill where it needs to go.
BTW, for those who love the 45/9mm debate, the big/small or light/heavy, here is a fact in easy to understand units of measurement.The actual difference in diameter is 95/100ths of an inch, or .095 inch. Just thought I'd add that....
BTW, for those who love the 45/9mm debate, the big/small or light/heavy, here is a fact in easy to understand units of measurement.The actual difference in diameter is 95/100ths of an inch, or .095 inch. Just thought I'd add that....
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