Home Invasion Defense: Slim bullet vs. Fat bullet

[gallo]

Let me start by saying that this post is not intended to start a debate on stopping power, on my gun makes bigger holes than yours, or the .45 ACP is better than the 9mm. That horse has been kicked one too many times.

Recently, the term home invasion, as in the case where two or more thugs break into a house, is tossed a lot by the media. In many instances, I’ve heard that the perpetrators are organized gangs frequently using Kevlar vests because the risk of getting shot at is high.

It is my understanding that Kevlar will stop a .45 JHP or 9 mm JHP, but that a 9mm FMJ has a better chance of penetrating the material by virtue of its higher speed and slimmer design.

I target practice with 115-GR FMJ, 9mm ammo and have never bought JHP rounds for home defense precisely because the advantages of over penetration that the round offers.

Short of getting an AR-15 for home defense, why would I want a big bore handgun if a smaller, faster bullet has a better chance of penetrating soft body armor?

I appreciate your responses, and let us not turn this into a 9mm vs. .45 discussions?

Thank you.

 

[mudslgr]

Hi gallo, I would think that one thing would have to be considered is where you live. I live in a rural country setting. The chances of someone with BA is slim to none. I can see and do agree somewhat with your view. With that said, I cover both sides of that spectrum.... .45 & 9mm. What is bad is both are right and both are wrong. Unfortunatly we have no way of knowing if BG is wearing BA until after the fact. If they are covered and you use ohl fat-n-slow then well, it's just going to hurt a lot. If they are not then the 9mm just might OP. So...... what to do

 

[Liko81]

Where you live also makes a difference in whether overpenetration is a concern to those around you. BGs kick in your door, and you fire FMJs. They're not wearing body armor. Tweedledee and Tweedledum are going to crumple to the floor, but your bullets are going to to into or through the wall across the hall and further from there. And if the BGs are wearing body armor, there is still a good chance the vests will catch it. You're talking about 30 layers of one of the toughest, least stretchable fibers known to man woven into a tight cloth. Unless that bullet's got a pretty thick jacket or a pretty thin and very hard point, the vest is going to stop most subsonic rounds.

Jusst in the general case, JHP is the better ammo to use in an urban situation. Misses will flatten themselves in the far wall and will be unlikely to embed themselves IN anybody behind that wall. Rapid-fire is going to naturally raise your aimpoint, and that body armor ends somewhere around the base of the neck; unless they also have tactical helmets (and in that case I'd start wondering if they were SWAT) a properly placed 9mm will end Sparky's criminal ambitions quickly.

 

[gallo]

Thank you both for your replies. I live in a suburb of Dallas in a relatively peaceful neighborhood. Ironically, it is this type of middle to upper-middle class neighborhood that is most at risk of home invasion by sophisticated gangs. The average crackhead living in the inner city that breaks into a home is looking for quick money to get his next fix. He wouldn’t be wearing armor. The thugs that break into middle-income houses are looking for plasma TVs, stereos, Ipods, credit cards, etc. They have communication devices and armor. They are a different animal. Thank God I have no first hand experience with this, except for what I hear and read in the media.

 

[19-3Ben]

Let me preface this by saying that I've never been shot, or shot at, and I have never worn ballistic armor.
I would think that getting hit with either, even if it doesn't penetrate, is going to cause a hell of a lot of damage. They bruise and even break ribs. Just because they don't penetrate doesn't mean that when you start shooting at someone he isn't going to turn and run, and that once you crack a guys ribs (would feel like taking a baseball bat to the chest) you won't completely take the fight out of him. These are not SWAT guys, nor are they military. Just because they are wearing armor doesn't mean they are willing to get shot. You start shooting, they'll run. you hit one, he'll give up. Hit him with a rifle or shotgun, and he won't have a choice in the matter

Now me? I use a 12ga. 870 for HD. The energy from a 12ga is enough to kill even through the armor because of the damage that happens on the inside of the armor when absorbing that much shock.

Before you get too hung up on which thing to use look here:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot16.htm

Basically, if you wanna penetrate armor, get a rifle.

 

[45ACPUSER]

Now me? I use a 12ga. 870 for HD. The energy from a 12ga is enough to kill even through the armor because of the damage that happens on the inside of the armor when absorbing that much shock.

I think that is an myth!:banghead:

Richard Davis, (Second Chance Body Armor) used to demo getting shot with 44mag at PBR with a detroit phone book between him and the vest...many times over....his body took the energy dump....many times over.......and well lived to tell about. I have seen a few people shot with SBA on and had the bullets stopped by the SBA, and yeah they had welts to their torso. But, they were far from DEAD or on the way there......Better yet imagine wearing SBA and eating the steering wheel column at high speed... more energy transfer then a 12g.......This poster perhaps needs a dose of reality on the kinematics of trauma.......

There is no magic bullet folks, and anyone that believes that needs to rethink options of using a fiream...

The common sense approach to failure to stop after shots to the chest is routinely accepted as head shots.... People with polysubstance altered mental status might not know they were are to stop and roll over and be DRT! The possibility of the aggressor wearing SBA is always a possibility. OR worse yet them super uber defensive rounds hit heavy leather jackets worn by the aggressor, they hit metal and were deflected? The threat resolution is shoot to stop the aggression with a followup shot to the head. Cut the motor and that usually helps......

 

[Rexster]

No normal 9mm or .45 will defeat Level II or IIA soft body armor under normal circumstances, and nobody wears Level I anymore, so why even go there? No, a 12 gauge slug that is stopped by soft armor will not kill. SWAT magazine plowed this ground in the 1980's, with real vests worn by a real guy, being shot with real ammo. I do not still have the article, but remember it well enough. With armored opponents, shoot them where there is no armor, or shoot ammo that will defeat the armor, like .223, which can be selected with a bullet configuration that also minimizes penetration through building materials. Of course, your opponnent may have an insert, or even a whole panel, which will defeat .223, so then it is back to shooting them where there is no armor.

 

[Quoheleth]

So, would a mag of 9mm, alternating FMJ and HPs, be a good compromise? I understand from the last couple posts that neither would be effective in penetrating Kevlar, but what about regular clothes - as winter comes along and thicker, bulkier outer layers are worn?
Q

 

[Rexster]

OK, looking closely at the first post, I see one concern. 9mm FMJ will not defeat the most common armor today, II and IIA, so using FMJ so it will defeat armor is false economy. I have not seen Level I offered for sale in a couple of decades, and it was never common. 9mm FMJ is also less likely to stop an opponent, and more likely to overpenetrate an opponent and hit your neighbor.

 

[RJChapman]

Skinny vs fat bullets

Rexter nailed it! If you are concerned about body armor on your advisary, use rifle ammo, or practice failure to stop drills (2 to the body, 1 to the head) with your handgun. Better yet, shoot where there is no armor. Depending upon handgun ammo to stop a vest is taking a gamble.

There is no firearm in existance that is ideally suited for all scenarios. Guns are like life, full of compromise and for some circumstances the choice will be wrong. You rarely get to pick the circumstance that you will have to survive.

My $0.02.

 

[EdLaver]

A simple solution here if your concerns are mainly Body Armor. Shot Placement. Practice at the range for Center Collar Bone, Neck, and Head Shots. Also if you have access to oversized or large targets at your local range. Practice lower body shots as well. With good shot placement, it wont matter if its 9mm or .45. I started my wife out with shot placement techniques using Crimson Trace Laser Grips on a Beretta 92 FS. She can now easily hit desired areas without the aid of the grips. Its all about practice.

 

[DMK]

If you are seriously concerned about body armor, you need one of these:

 

[gallo]

Thank you for this informative stream of responses. What I gather is that level II and better soft body armor effectively stop a 9mm FMJ. Second, shot placement to exposed body parts preferably neck and head is paramount which takes us back to using JHP bullets to prevent over penetration.


This is all fine, but shot placement is easier said than done. At the range, targets are static and even those that move don’t fire back. I imagine that in a real situation with the adrenaline rushing and the heart pounding 1000 beats per minute shot placement becomes second to just hitting the subject. Perhaps one of those weapons posted by DMK is a better HD solution, regardless of over penetration. After all, when was the last time someone here read or heard about a neighbor catching a stray bullet fired from within another neighbor’s house?

Another very good observation was made by 19-3Ben where he mentions that thugs, unlike soldiers or LEO, usually run when shot at even if wearing armor. His hypothesis seems to be corroborated by the many accounts posted on the Civilian Gun Self-Defense Blog of which I have read a couple of month’s worth of postings. Although I have not read a single account of thugs wearing SBA, most of the BGs fled the scene at the sound of shots or when hit by a bullet regardless of caliber. In only a few posting did the BG stayed to fight after being hit.

So these are my humble conclusions, practice, practice, and practice with the caliber that fits you best. There is a high probability that the BG when surprised by the homeowner’s gunshot may flee the scene. If this is not the case, well you have to have plan B (that’s for homework). Lastly, learn some hand-to-hand combat. A BG shot in the gut can still have enough stamina to take your gun away or try to strangle you. The gun is a great weapon, but if the fight comes to the trenches, you have to be ready to fight with anything available. Keep in mind that he who lands the first shot has the upper hand.

 

[Geno]

I suggest a 12 gauge with alternating buckshot and slugs.

 

[1911Tuner]

Home defense? #4 buckshot. Shoot low.

 

[Mainsail]

Home Invasion Defense: Slim bullet vs. Fat bullet

Is the invader slim or fat?

 

[Cowboy2]

If you put me in a house and told me that in two minutes robbers are going to force thier way in, and that I had the option of any non-full auto gun to defend myself with, the answer would be easy--a 12 guage riot gun loaded with buckshot.

 

[old_ironsights]

A dependable 12 guage shotgun loaded with interspersed magnum 00 buck and slugs is the best protection you can have.

The spread of meat-grinder 00 buck at 1320fps hits the perp where his body armor doesn't cover and the 546gr slugs at 1730fps* is brutally punishing when it hits body armor and is devastating to any part of the unprotected body it hits.

*http://www.lightfieldslugs.com/lightfield/ecatalog/index.cfm?id=2

 

[TomN]

+2 on the 12 gauge.

 

[Josh Aston]

9mm, FMJ or otherwise is going to do just as dismal a job at penetrating armor as the .45 is. Modern body armor is pretty much all level IIIa and higher. You're going to need a rifle to penetrate it. And if they have plates, you'll need a really big rifle.

 

[KevininPa]

12g Shotgun. It might not penetrate a vest, but the perp will still be knocked down. You take it from there if you want to finish it.

 

[Bullet]

gallo
Perhaps one of those weapons posted by DMK is a better HD solution, regardless of over penetration. After all, when was the last time someone here read or heard about a neighbor catching a stray bullet fired from within another neighbor’s house?

I believe the handguns will over penetrate more than an AR-15. Take a look at the site in post #5 above.

KevininPa
12g Shotgun. It might not penetrate a vest, but the perp will still be knocked down.

Only in the movies.

 

[meef]

Geez.

If you're concerned about organized gangs using Kevlar vests breaking into your house, you've got a lot more than slim vs. fat bullets to worry about.

As for myself, I've had this nagging worry about herds of rabid unicorns breaking through my windows in the middle of the night and horning me to death.

:banghead:

What's a guy to do, I ask you?

 

[Bullet]

meef
I've had this nagging worry about herds of rabid unicorns breaking through my windows in the middle of the night and horning me to death.
What's a guy to do, I ask you?

Are the unicorns wearing body armor?

 

[CPshooter]

I think that it's better to use JHP anyways, because like already mentioned a bullet stopped by a vest is still going to cause some pain. Probably enough to cause them to go into shock becuase they will think it went through their vest and they might panic.

On the flip side, people have been shot and still keep moving. And if somebody just got done doing some lines and taking some good painkillers, they will definitley keep moving if you don't hit a vital. That's why I think it's better to carry JHP over FMJ in hopes of destroying more tissue in the event that a bullet did hit and penetrate. IMO you are better off with that situation than using FMJ just because you assumed the perp. was wearing body armor and you are hoping it went through a bullet proof vest in the first place. I wouldn't count on it.

Also, I'd suspect that any typical criminal wouldn't be able to get their hands on a real kevlar vest. They'd probably have a "ballistic vest" with steel inserts. This means that a FMJ really wouldn't give you any better chances that a JHP would. You're probably SOL anyways.. this is when you pull out the AR-15 or AK. Let's hope none of us need to shoot a battle rifle indoors...that would be damaging to your ears I'd imagine. And dangerous if you have kids in the next room over. Hell, if somebody broke into your house armed and wearing body armor it probably just isn't your day now is it?