Home Invasion Defense: Slim bullet vs. Fat bullet

[Jason_G]

As for myself, I've had this nagging worry about herds of rabid unicorns breaking through my windows in the middle of the night and horning me to death.
What's a guy to do, I ask you?

You need to look into these. I would wait a month or so though, the "tactical" package will be coming out soon and will include digital camo unicorn removers and a hard case.




To the OP: Seriously though, I wouldn't give too much thought to badguys with kevlar. You can get to a point where you're just worrying about too much. If you know you're going into harm's way, that's a different situation, but the odds of anyone intruding in your home with you there are slim. The chances that said badguy managed to get his hands on some kevlar are slimmer still. Put a good shotgun within your reach in your bedroom and sleep tight.

Jason

 

[gallo]

The shotgun keeps piling up the confidence votes. Considering a good one can be had for under $300, I may get one.

 

[brassdog]

+1 for the shotgun

I keep a shotgun for home defense because it versatile in terms of ammo selection and power. Use what you feel comfortable with and practice with it so that you know for yourself that it 100% reliable.

In regards to BA, you can only do what you train you mindset to react to. If you anticipate BA wearing thugs then make sure you have the appropriate measures in place. By this I mean not just ammo but a layered defense plan to deny them the opportunity and/or knowledge of your area. Do you know your neighbors? Do you have a backup plan in case Murphy decides to show up?

Not wanting to stir things up. Just adding some perspective.

 

[Socrates]

How do you check the door, or walk out to take the garbage out with your shotgun, or rifle?

Seriously, this is a major problem. You need both hands to effectively use a long gun, and, going to the door, looking through the peep hole, or getting the mail, carrying a shotgun will get you evicted, quickly, at least in the PR of Kali.

I think there is a place for a very heavy caliber pistol in this situation, starting with the 44 magnum, and going up. You can open the door, have the gun in position, or, with the proper ammo selection, penetrate armour. IIRC, don't 350 grain plus cast LFN's penetrate body armour, going 1350 fps?

For a pelvis shot, the chances of doing really serious damage is pretty high with such a round.

Second choice would be something like the 45 Detonics/460 Rowland, with 230-260 grain bullets.

Jim, "Golden":

Glad to hear the lightweight high velocity ammo works for you. This reenforces comments by Lee Jurras that a 250 grain bullet, going at least 950 fps, if it starts with a .4, works, and, if starts with a .3, a 115 grains going 1350 fps is effective as well.

The problem with the 147 grain 9mm is you don't have sufficient case capacity to push the bullet fast enough to get adequate expansion, using a HP. Think trying to push a parachute through water, and, you get the general idea. In ballistic gelatin, you hit a point of diminishing returns, with light bullets.

Here are some tests that support that:
http://www.brassfetcher.com/180grHorn44mag.html

Here a 44 magnum, 180 grain bullet is pushed at nearly 1600 fps, and, it penetrates only 12.6".

The 147, if it's SLOWED DOWN, and only going about 900-1000 fps, will penetrate to around 14", but mainly because the bullet opens slowly, doing less damage on the way.

Here's a test of a heavier, 357 bullet, going only 13" or so, after being fire at about 1050 fps:
http://www.brassfetcher.com/357mag158grSpeerGoldDot.html

 

[DanK]

While long guns are great, they can be quite cumbersome indoors. Some people mentioned specialty pistol calibers such as the .44mag & 7.62X25.

Personally, I don't think my hand would be big enough for a Desert Eagle & I've read a thread about them where most people admitted to having occasional jams -- not great in a defensive firearm.

What about other specialty cartridges?

I use a Glock 20 with some high power 10MM ammo. I also have a 9X25 barrel on the way which I would consider using as my defensive caliber if I can handle the recoil with one hand.

Does anyone have any thoughts on calibers such as these? In my case the choice would be either a 95gr. round nosed 9MM bullet traveling at around 1950fps and carrying a thick brass jacket, or a 125gr. flat nosed bullet with the same jacket at about 1650fps.

If these have some nominal capacity to penetrate BA, at least Level II, then this might be a solution. Bigger hole than a 5.7 or 7.62 and better penetration than a 9MM Luger or 45ACP.

Hey this isn't even a 9 vs 45 post!!

 

[Socrates]

Here are Mike McNetts gello results:

DoubleTap 10mm
135gr JHP @ 1600fps - 11.0" / .70" frag nasty
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1475fps - 13.5" / .88"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 14.25" / 1.02"
165gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1425fps - 14.75" / .82"
180gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1330fps - 16.0" / .85"
180gr XTP @ 1350fps – 17.25” / .77”
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1300fps - 15.25" / .96"
200gr XTP @ 1250fps - 19.5" / .72"
230gr Equalizer @ 1040fps - 11.0" and 17.0" / .62" and .40"

DoubleTap 9X25
115gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1800fps - 10.0" / .64" frag nasty
125gr Gold DOt JHP @ 1725fps - 15.0" / .74"
147gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1550fps - 17.5" / .68"
DoubleTap .45ACP
185gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1225fps - 12.75" / .82"
200gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.25" / .88"
230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps - 15.25" / .95"

I'm partial to the 45 Gold Dot, but at 1100 fps, since I don't have to buy a new gun, just use 45 Super.

Of the above loads, the 165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 14.25" / 1.02" and 180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1300fps - 15.25" / .96" loads both give me warm and fuzzies out of a Glock 29.

However, the smallest guy that ever jumped me was 220, and, the three with the Walther PPK/S were all over 250, and huge. Your average badguy may require less penetration then the ones that have attacked me....

 

[DanK]

Cool! Great research, I keep hearing of Mike McNett's gel tests, but have never seen any results.

I was beginning to think that energy was more important than momentum in penetration. I figured that's why cops tend to use lighter weight ammo; to better penetrate car doors and the like. Any idea if thin armor behaves similarly to gel? After all gel simulates flesh, which rips unlike Kelvar which can be cut but doesn't snap too easily.

I think Gallo's original question was whether FMJs would be a solution to BGs in BA. So in line with that I'm going off the assumption that actually making a hole (big or small, deep or shallow) is better than having the potential to make a big deep hole.

Do you know if any test results of 9X25 or 10MM FMJs in gelatin exist?

 

[Socrates]

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot24.htm
Real life situation, in an attempt to answer a police snipers question.
Rutt around here for more...
http://www.theboxotruth.com/index.htm

 

[Tomcat47]

I only use .380 and still feel confident about this situation.....IF it were to ever occur.

I have...Carry at all times.. A Taurus PT58HC.Would be Perpetrators would recieve the ever famous 2 shots then 1 and followed by 16 head high if not stopping.

SO they better pull there kevlar up over there head, and when they do they open up the bottom... its a win win !

 

[Soybomb]

The problem with the 147 grain 9mm is you don't have sufficient case capacity to push the bullet fast enough to get adequate expansion, using a HP.

Today we have excellent 147gr jhp's that expand properly.

", but mainly because the bullet opens slowly, doing less damage on the way.

Can you show me some gelatin tests that illustrate slow expansion? Bullets generally seem to know very little about the distance of tissue they've penetrated and the hydraulic forces in the cavity cause rapid expansion.

 

[Socrates]

www.brassfetcher.com

 

[Tomcat47]

Soybomb......while I will agree that bullet expansion is a concern with the 9mm and my choice of carry..the .380 I must add that we are talking self defense and a hole is a hole and leaking is leaking! I myself want a through and through shot with say hard ball ammo from my 9mm or my .380.
Both rounds offer this with energy leaving fast after exit, so as to not kill the next door neighbor.
In most cases it is blood loss and shock that stops a perpetrator.

1 shot 2 holes....2 shot 4 holes....3 shots.....6 holes.

nothing like this is perfect science...but there is some thought with this theory in my opinion. I hope I never have to find out.

more self defense reading at www.internetarmory.com

 

[gallo]

Thanks, Dank, for injecting new life into this dead thread.

I keep reading in post after post by people who certainly know a lot more about ballistics than me that HPs are better for self defense. And to some extent I agree and see the logic of their arguments. Nonetheless, something deep inside tells me that a bullet that make entry and exit holes is better than one that expands. The wound channel is longer albeit narrower, and the more the bullet travels inside, the more damage it makes.

 

[DanK]

I understand your sentiments Gallo! That's one of the reasons I went with the powerhouse 10MM/9X25. There is also something to be said for hydrostatic shock.

From what I understand this has been largely shown to leave no long lasting effects in the body, but it is non-the-less real. Like a supersonic plane creating a sonic boom. The air permanently change or get evacuated from the zone, but temporarily there is a displacement which creates a sonic shock wave.

With rounds traveling at in the neighborhood of 1700 or even up to 2000 fps, from what I understand there will be some shock. That should be like getting hit with a baseball bat -- from the inside. So the perp might take a couple of seconds longer to die than with a .45 sized hole, but he'll be incapacitated for a couple of seconds longer after impact. And you have better penetration.

So even without the capability of penetrating armor, the combined effects of depth and speed may stop the threat faster.

By the way, since I got a job in NYC, I think I may have the same problem as you. For me I don't think organized crooks are a problem, but with all the rappers, some high profile criminals, and all sorts of other riffraff sporting BA, I am concerned that it might be becoming a bit of a fashion trend with common criminals in this area.

 

[Tomcat47]

MachIVshooter.......Nice! Stag?

If my .380 doesnt stop em... it will get me to my DPMS LR308......24" Stainless barrel

Maybe just get'em before they even get to us! That would be best say 6...700 yards....nay lets give 1000 that should raise there odds by say 1%

I like your way of thinking!

Afterthought...... If I suspect body armor...I'm not gonna shoot at it just to see if I can penetrate.....19 rounds of .380 and a lot of unprotected areas such as NECK! arms, legs, etc. We are talking shot placement...shot placement.....shot placement. Shot is shot! and more coming right behind those if necessary. I chose my .380 for a lot of reasons and carrying almost a box of ammo in 2 clips concealed never really crossed my mind till this thread! But its kinda neat!

Second Afterthought! We are more likely to be attaked by liberals or unicorns than BG,s wearing body armor!