Home Invasion Defense: Slim bullet vs. Fat bullet

[DAVIDSDIVAD]

Are the unicorns wearing body armor?

Oh jeez, man, you gave me a good laugh, hahahah.




What kind of body armor are we talking about?


Honestly, are bad dudes going to be ordering brand new body armor, or are they more likely to be wearing old worn out flak jackets?

Use your heads.

 

[loop]

The Soviet Union dealt with a similar dilemma in the '30s - How do you assure penetration when the BG may be wearing nine or 10 layers of clothing, including a fur coat and leather vest?
It concluded it needed a smaller diameter bullet for penetration and came up with the 7.62X25. For the most part the .30 caliber bullet is rated to travel at about 1,300 fps, but I've heard tales of them being chronoed up to 1,600 fps.
Regardless, it should defeat most body armor at close range in a FMJ. CZ52s are plentiful and chambered for this cartridge.
However, the Soviets concluded more frontal mass was necessary to effectively neutralize threats and made the switch to the 9X18 Mak.
That said, my recommendation would be a .45acp with semi-wadcutters. The flat face of the semi-wadcutter deals whale of a blow, body armor or no body armor. The sharp edges sever veins and arteries cleanly and cause severe bleeding.
The goal is to neutralize the threat. Whether the BG runs away, falls down in pain from a sledgehammer to the chest or bleeds out is of little consequence as long as the threat is neutralized.
In the pre-hollowpoint days a lot of knowledgeable people carried .38 wadcutters because of the shock value of the flat front and the clean wounds that caused profuse bleeding. It's a proven design that fell out of favor after the invention of the hollowpoint bullet and the .357 magnum.

 

[DAVIDSDIVAD]

So I guess the point to take away is this:

Keep doing what you need to do(shooting?) until the threat is over/

 

[Soybomb]

So, would a mag of 9mm, alternating FMJ and HPs, be a good compromise? I understand from the last couple posts that neither would be effective in penetrating Kevlar, but what about regular clothes - as winter comes along and thicker, bulkier outer layers are worn?

There's no reason to, worst case a jhp will plug and not expand and behave like a fmj. Load jhp's. Neither are going thorough body armor. If you want that, you need a rifle.

12g Shotgun. It might not penetrate a vest, but the perp will still be knocked down. You take it from there if you want to finish it.

On what do you base that? There isn't enough energy there to do it. People have gotten holes put in them with slugs and kept attacking for a brief time after. There is no guarantee you'll stop your attacker without breaking the juicy tender parts of the body.

 

[Neophyte1]

shot gun

gallo: Sir; I didn't read a single response. "I will"
My feeling on the 'armed' break in; with kelvar protection;
12 gauge shot gun with 0000 buck shot. Knowing full and well it will not penetrate. My reason?
The ruckus of the boom; maybe a head shot; maybe a face shot; blind dead man can't hurt you. Second blast like the first. Most folks who haven't had close combat experience; will have problems from the concussion, the slamming at 10-20 feet; and not being prepared to such recourse. I'm counting on that. Advantage mine; I pray.

 

[Koblenz]

Sounds like everyone here is making a good arguement for using the 12 guage shotgun, or else a high powered rifle for home defense. I'd guess a load of buckshot in the face would stop any perp, regardless of what body armor he was wearing.

 

[sb350hp]

Alright guys if the BG is in BA and breaks into your home and your SD weapon is predetermined as in most if not all of our cases. I do not choose nightly which firearm will be for HD on any particular day or night. It just is the HD choice.
So penetration or stopping power? My opinion is stopping power. Even if you considera BG with BA if you hit him with the stopping power of a large caliber vs the penetration of a smaller faster cartridge are you not choosing the "best" option? If it does not penatrate it may still get the BG off of his feet and disoriented therefore giving you the upper hand and advantage. Hitting a 160 to 200lb guy with 350ftlbs or more of energy w/o penetration is way better imho than 200ft lbs and still not getting penatration.

The best opinion I have read in this thread is shotgun w/ alternationg buckshot/slug and shooting low.

 

[Timthinker]

The notion of several BGs wearing body armour seems pretty remote to merit my concern. If something like this did occur, a gunshot might frighten them off. If not, and I consider this possibility very unlikely, then other targets become available at close range. This is an interesting thread, but I certainly do not anticipate anything like this occurence.


Timthinker

 

[Neophyte1]

advantage

Timthinker: Sir; I agree with you. Many more will agree with you. On that out chance something did happen?
These folks are thinking. Does that give them the advantage while sitting on the pot? Answering the door with a gun in one hand? Asleep; doorbell rings; half asleep; what is the first thing you do? Driving into the garage?

Fortunately my life experiences haven't come to being ever so vigilant. Perhaps I'm wrong. Fortunately; my life experiences have some preparedness. Without a doubt as I get older I will lose ability, physical and mental. On the other hand, maybe I'll get wiser.

My opinion; shooting the legs of 'bad guy'; not good; 12 gauge upper chest with 0000 buckshot. The odds of a head shot are greater. No eyes; no advantage. Knock the legs down and he's in the dark; where is my advantage.
A fair fight to me. There Aint one; with me.

Timthinker: don't misinterpret my thinking as an argument of any kind against anything you have written. WE AGREE:

 

[FMJMIKE]

I love my Glocks but at home I have a better choice to stop a home invasion. It has 15 rounds of medium sized bullets that will deter most any home invader.............M1 Carbine........

 

[_N4Z_]

Ahhh, what a lively conversation we have going on here!

I'll chime in my 2 or 3 cents.

Just say no to the 9mm and the .45acp. Shoot the armored BG with a .357mag. That's my at hand caliber of choice, but only to get me to the Rem870 12ga. Slugs and 00 are good medicine. Sure, situations vary and you can't plan for every possibility, but in the close quarters of HD I say this is going to cover most bases adequately. BG wearing armor and your initial efforts fail to remedy?? Face, groin, knees, legs and feet. All's fair game when it's war.

Now if it turns out to be a horde of flesh eating zombies, the above should be enough to hold them off long enough to retrieve a Kalashnikov from the safe.

 

[DAVIDSDIVAD]

quadruple ought buckshot???

hahah, that is odd.

 

[MFFRet]

To add fuel to the fire, I live in a town adjacent to a military post. I have been seeing a lot of vehicle, home and storage break-ins that the new body armor has been stolen from active duty soldiers, and thats only from what I have read in the newspaper. I'm not talking about a single incident but quite a good number. Makes me wonder what isn't reported to the news and only to post authorities. When I first started reading about it, I had thoughts of this very same thing possibily happening. Not just home invasions, but armed robberies also.

 

[gym]

3 seconds tops

That's all you have, can't plan past a certain point, I had one 30 yrs ago as I opended my door to go to work, there was no time, they grabbed my girlfriend and the first guy in knocked me to the floor, 3-4 perps, waiting for me in a stairwell just listening for the doorknob to turn, no alarm or dog back then. I did ok, no one got killed that day, but even though I in my mind on the way down,I realized they had no idea I was carrying a detective special, inside job, thought I was holding pay and bonus money for my staff, wrong, they got very little and taped us up and left, they were pro's turned out the same crew had been terrorizing shop owners and a couple were ci's for the feds. My choice was to open up and take 2 down immiediatlly, but they had my girlfriend in another room, with 1 0r 2 more guys with guns to her head I was very unaccomidating, and I hope no one finds themselves in that position, I gave up my gun, because it was the only sane thing to do, if I were alone that never would have happened. But you can't plan that something like that is going to happen to you. There are too many variables, like your kids wife etc, ever since then, dogs guns and alarms, are the best deterent, I went to work that day and gave out the christmass bonuses , as I had done every year, I just never let anyone have access to that info. I got lucky but at the time I was just angry, until they were brought to justice I could not sleep, for a year. And it was my dogged persistance that led end of that story. It is usually someone you know but you really don't know anyone, It's like you show your gun or car to a someone and they tell someone else, and before you know it something happens. There are a lot of scumbags in the world and when things get bad , they get bad fast. Trying to find a shotgun or a rifle in those conditions, or an AR, is tough, because unless you walk around with it all day, it isn't going to do you much good, my best advice is get a dog, any size, an alarm with monitoring, and never zip up your jacket or button your coat,if you need to get to your gun, I see that way too much. Also there very few gunfights in those scenaroes, usually if a weapon is fired everyone heads for the closest exit. Also watch the girls you date, if you really don't know them well, go to thier house untill you can check them out, sad but true, my building was a doorman cocierge building, and the police report had them getting in with no problem, and waiting in a stairwell. A good alarm can be coded with a panic code, that will disarm the siren but go in as a robbery in progress

 

[MachIVshooter]

Honestly, are bad dudes going to be ordering brand new body armor, or are they more likely to be wearing old worn out flak jackets?

Use your heads.

The most common thing is for them to steal the armor out of police cruisers, believe it or not. That means that II/IIA are what you're likely to encounter. But it is still a minimal number of BG's who go this far.

That said, there is a reason some of us keep rifles for HD. I do simply because they're more effective than handguns with or without the presence of armor. I also live in an area where overpenetration isn't a concern, so I bypassed .223 in favor of .308.

 

[DAVIDSDIVAD]

Hmm, I did not know that bad dudes got their hands on good body armor so frequently.

I wonder how a dude wearing body armor would take a hot .45/70?

 

[1911RjB]

Geez.

If you're concerned about organized gangs using Kevlar vests breaking into your house, you've got a lot more than slim vs. fat bullets to worry about.

I second this, what kind of organized crime are you involved in??

 

[gallo]

I leave this thread unattended for the Christmas holidays, and I come back to find that rabid, Kevlar-wearing unicorns are terrorizing the fine people posting here. The world is going to hell in a hand basket.

The situation with organized crime wearing BA is not as prevalent in the US as in other countries where kidnapping and extortion are a daily occurrence. This is why I originated this thread. I never thought it would yield so many replies. I realize that to many BGs with BA seems unlikely. It does happen frequently be a genuine variable in the whole HD equation.

 

[magsnubby]

RPG? Flame thrower?

DMK,
Nice collection you have there.

Kevlar-wearing unicorns? Is that the latest mode of transportation for zombies?

 

[golden]

My CHOICE

I would go with a 9m.m. Use the best JHP ammo you can get, +P if possible. Then practice failure to stop routines. My agency includes it in our qualifications.

PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE. The head shots are harder than you will believe and they will be much harder under stress.
Consider going back to standard velocity 9m.m. if it improves your ability to make the head shot.

I have found the BERETTA 92 and SIG 226 to be the most accurate 9m.m. pistols that I have fired. You should try renting a number of different guns and see which gives you the best practical accuracy.

Consider pelvis area shots. Some military agencies use them. They can bring down a bad guy very quickly.

Jim

 

[jenrob]

Consider pelvis area shots. Some military agencies use them. They can bring down a bad guy very quickly.

Jim

this is one of the best shots it's an extremely weak point and a pretty good size target. A buddy trying to get a guy to stop advancing on him aimed at the pelvic regin and the guy stopped and laid down. Later he asked him about it and the guy told him he thought he was going to shoot his privates off and he didn't want him to do that so he gave up

now on BA this is what it says on the the print in it Active Matrix Gold 1.4 Ballistic Technology.78lbs/sqft (light weight) .168in. thick. 9mm 1643ft/sec .357 1607ft/sec so with this you can see that a 9mm and a 45 haven't a chance but on the other hand a .357 w/ 125gr Hdy XTP starting powder load wieght of 21gr runs around 1881 streaight from Hodgdons web site that puts it through this vest. and the 357 Rem. Maximum travels well above that so there you have it a hot 357mag if you don't want a shotgun or rifle

 

[TimboKhan]

I would think that getting hit with either, even if it doesn't penetrate, is going to cause a hell of a lot of damage.

I have been shot, and my firsthand experience is that the 9mm penetrates very well (all the way through me, in fact) but doesn't cause a whole lot of damage at close range, at least relatively speaking. Certainly, without good medical care (God Bless all Corpsmen) I would have died eventually, but practically, I was still in the fight and would have remained so for quite a while. Had I been shot with a .45 in the exact same spot, I personally think I would have been down for good, althought that is just a guess on my part.

Now, with that being said, I shoot a lot of 9mm. I can shoot them well, and it's a very pleasant caliber to shoot. I find it lacking in comparison to the .45 (and the .357), but it does have it's merits. Also, I don't want to sound bloodthirsty or eager for violence, but there aren't a whole lot of vests that protect the head or the groin. Aim at either if centermass doesn't seem to be working out for you. I have no data or evidence to back this claim up, but I suspect that if you shoot a guy in his junk, the fight will be over, stat.

HA!!! I didn't quite read through, and I just noticed that both the posters previous to me advocated groin shots! Three in a row must make it a good idea, right?

 

[biscuitninja]

I've only had to defend my house just once. It was with a .45 with a twist... it was a old Thompson. Armor or no, I only have 30 rounds of .45 to take care of it. If I were to do it again, i'd have used a 12 gage. Isn't 00 buck something like a 32 cal or approximately 7x .32 rounds. I do have some big pile driver tack pusher (.50, .416, and the smallest 7.62x54r) but I live in a urban area. I can't imagine how many homes the .50 would go through, armor or no armor.
-bix

 

[sparkyguy]

a properly placed 9mm will end Sparky's criminal ambitions quickly.

I can assure you I have no criminal ambitions.
My answer is shotgun blast with 00buck to the groin. Takes all the will of fighting, and living, out of a perp.

 

[mnw42]

A Thompson, wow! Now, that is the HD gun of my dreams! A short burst from that would make me run like hell.