Home Invasion Defense: Slim bullet vs. Fat bullet

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Another plus to a shot gun is how loud it is, and just chambering a round is loud enough to make people think twice about going further. Also think mobility. If residence has long hallways or tight corners you are gonna want something you can move around with ease. You are not gonna want that duck hunting 12ga you use. Something small, you can easily load and move around.

About the handguns, i prefer the .44mag desert eagle i have in my dresser. But no one mentioned that so i will let it go.

And just like every one mentioned, JHP for home defense and FMJ for range shooting or a place where you know you wont hit anyone else.
 
Looks like shotguns are winning the popularity contest. However, one thing to consider is your hearing. Firing a shotgun or a 357 magnum in an enclosed area can cause permanent, partial hearing loss. The other day I fired my .22 Buckmark pistol at an indoors firing range without ear protection thinking the sound would be similar to when I fire a .22 rifle in the outdoors. Boy, was I wrong. That thing makes a lot of noise. So I can only imagine what a higher caliber would sound in the dead of the night.
 
Head shots is the answer.

There are no handgun rounds that I'd rely on for self defense that will reliably penetrate body armor. There are some that will do better than others, but most are marginally suitable for self defense.

The heavy magnums (.454, .460 S&W, .50 Lignbaugh, .500 S&W) will penetrate some (not all) levels of body armor. They also have an atrocious level of recoil for a self defense pistol. If hitting a un-armored assailent, they are going to go right through, depositing their energy somewhere MUCH further downrange.

5.7x28 and 7.62x25 have some limited ability in this regard, but niether is what I'd be willing to bet my life on as a fight stopper.

If you really think there is a likelyhood of home invasion as you described, I'd spend some money reinforcing the doors and by a rifle. A typical .30-30 will penetrate most body armor. Ditto .30 carbine, .223, and 7.62x39. If you feel you need more penetration than those, I'd suggest a Garand with steel core .30-06. I'd also suggest moving.
 
+1 on shotgun.to defeat body armor you dont have to penatrate it,the term also applies to deformation.if you hit someone with a soft vest at 15 feet away with buck or slugs,its going to cause serious and immediate problems to the receipiant.and considering the fact that you can get quality affordable ballistic protection without leaving a trace,its not overreaching to think a potential badguy would be wearing it.just to be safe, aim your first shot at the knees and let recoil take its course;)
 
Wow.

These threads usually tend to eventually get thought out waaay too much.


People start creating elaborate scenarios, etc...


Generally all the inquiring come away with is this:

mount an M2HB in your living room with armor piercing ammunition.


Here's my formula for threads like these.

Take them and divide them by 4: M2HB / 4 = use the handgun you have, and that you shoot the best.

Thugs wearing advanced body armor / 4 = Joe Schmoe that is only looking to make a quick buck. He doesn't know your floorplan, is ill-prepared etc..


If all we do to plan is convince ourselves that home invaders are the armor wearing, bullet proof scourge of suburbia, what is the point?



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Consider pelvis area shots. Some military agencies use them. They can bring down a bad guy very quickly.
That seems to be another one of those "you don't even have to aim a shotgun" myths that many people seem to buy into but probably isn't actually true.

Fackler ML: "Shots to the Pelvic Area ". Wound Ballistics Review. 4-1:13 1999. said:
“I welcome the chance to refute the belief that the pelvic area is a reasonable target during a gunfight. I can find no evidence or valid rationale for intentionally targeting the pelvic area in a gunfight. The reasons against, however, are many. They include:
-- From the belt line to the top of the head, the areas most likely to rapidly incapacitate the person hit are concentrated in or near the midline. In the pelvis, however, the blood vessels are located to each side, having diverged from the midline, as the aorta and inferior vena cava divide at about the level of the navel. Additionally, the target that, when struck, is the most likely to cause rapid and reliable incapacitation, the spinal cord located in the midline of the abdomen, thorax and neck), ends well above the navel and 18 not a target in the pelvis.
-- The pelvic branches of the aorta and inferior vena cava are more difficult to hit than their parent vessels -- they are smaller targets, and they diverge laterally from the midline (getting farther from it as they descend). Even if hit, each carry far less blood than the larger vessels from which they originated. Thus, even if one of these branches in the pelvis is hit, incapacitation from blood loss must necessarily be slower than from a major vessel hit higher up in the torso.
-- Other than soft tissue structures not essential to continuing the gunfight (1oops of bowel, bladder) the most likely thing to be struck by shots to the pelvis would be bone. The ilium is a large flat bone that forms most of the back wall of the pelvis. The problem is that handgun bullets that hit it would not break the bone but only make a small hole in passing through it: this would do nothing to destroy bony support of the pelvic girdle. The pelvic girdle is essentially a circle: to disrupt its structure significantly would require breaking it in two places. Only a shot that disrupted the neck or upper portion of the shaft of the femur would be likely to disrupt bony support enough to cause the person hit to fall. This is a small and highly unlikely target: the aim point to hit it would be a mystery to those without medical training — and to most of those with medical training.
The “theory” stated in the question postulates that “certain autonomic responses the body undergoes during periods of stress” causes officers to shoot low, and that apparently this is good in a gunfight because such shots cause “severe disability.” I hope that the points presented above debunk the second part of the theory. As for the “autonomic responses” that cause officers to shoot low, I am unaware of anything in the anatomy or physiology of the autonomic nervous system that would even suggest such an occurrence. Most laymen do not understand the function of the autonomic nervous system. It is simply a system whose main function is to fine tune the glands and smooth muscles (those in the walls of organs and blood vessels) of the body. During times of stress such as perceived impending danger, the autonomic nervous system diverts blood from the intestines and digestive organs to the skeletal muscles — in the so-called “fight or flight” response. The effects of this response are constantly exaggerated by laymen who lack an adequate understanding of it — most notably by gun writ-ers eager to impress their readers. Interestingly, the human body can get along quite well without major parts of the autonomic nervous system. During my professional life as a surgeon, myself and colleagues removed parts of thousands of vagus nerves (mostly in treating peptic ulcer disease) -- thus depriving the patient of the major part of the parasympathetic half of the autonomic nervous system. We also removed many ganglia from the sympathetic half of the auto-nomic nervous system, in treating such things as profusely excess sweating and various problems caused by spasm of the arteries. I am unaware of any evidence that these operations produced any significant effect on the future capacity of these patients to react appropriately in times of impending danger.
Unfortunately, the pelvis shot fallacy is common. This fallacy, along with other misinformation, is promoted constantly by at least one gun writer who is widely published in the popular gun press. Because of this, I regularly debunk this fallacy by including some of the above rationale in my presentations to law enforcement firearm instructor groups.”
 
I would say a compact 12ga loaded with centurions' buck & ball shells, not alternate OO and slugs. If you can only manage a pistol, go with whatever has the bst point and shoot ergonomics for you. A .44 mag desert eagle wouldn't be my choice...
 
I don't know about you guys, but I was under the impression that the type of person who endeavours to perpetrate a Home Invasion Robbery, even when proofed with ballistic armor will high tail it at warp speed the second he realizes that there are bullets coming his way. The armor is made to do one thing, keep you from dying from COM hits.

Having said that, I will rely on this funny thing called shot placement. Train hard, fight easy. Do your drills and get your skill sets hardwired (muscle memory). Then when you are in the mixer your body will do the business of fighting while you manage the scenario and apply your skillsets as required. Whatever you choose to use, make sure you train with it as often as you can.
 
Fackler Questionable

SOYBOMB, my source for shooting the pelvis has been from several firearms instructors. They give it as an alternative to a head shot.

I personally do not put much stock in FACKLER anymore. He was a big proponent of the 147 grain "HEAVY" 9m.m. round. It proved to be a lousy load in the 9m.m.
That should have surprised no one as it basically duplicates the standard velocity .38 Special loads.

Lately, FACKLER has spent a lot of time debunking gun writers. The problem is that some of what the gun writers are saying has been supported by field experience. He did not support the high velocity .40 caliber loads. They have proven very effective for my agency.
He supported the FBI push for a deep penetrating bullet. That foisted the 10 m.m. "MEDIUM" load on the FBI agents. A fiasco that the bureau is still getting ribber about.

Just an aside, one of the writers boasting the "PELVIS" shot points to the Louisian shooting in which one officer was killed by a bad guy who was repeatedly shot. The criminal was even shot in the head and continued his attack. He was dropped by a pelvis shot which broke the bone in his pelvis and left him crawling on the floor till he bled out.

Jim
 
add to the fackler spot above.

he is much of blood and nervous system disruption. he mentions hitting pelvis bone (structural members) and that a handgun round would only punch a hole though and do nothing to disrupt the targets stability.

i think depending on size and velocity of the round, angles, etc this is very much open to debate. substitute the handgun round with a shotgun slug, i think structural damage would be devastating.

but again, there are soooo many variables.


and the big guy little guy thingy in a fight? i'll go with the bruce lee type little guy, ahhh thank you! :p
 
What Rexter said. Any current or fairly recent body armor will stop 9mm FMJ just as reliably as it will stop 9mm JHP.

If you are that concerned about home invaders wearing body armor, a Ruger mini-14, Kel-Tec .223, or small AR would make more sense, as they will penetrate the types of body armor that criminals might have access to (but will still be stopped by NIJ Level III armor and up). If you are using a 9mm, I'd go with JHP exclusively.
 
magnumcarry,

I would tend to say a skinny man, if he could deliver punches and move fast. This is beginning to sound too much like a 9mm / .45 thread. My preference is for 9mm, but I have plenty of appreciation and respect for the .45 caliber. It's a fine caliber with an undisputed track record. My question was if the 9mm was better at penetrating BA given that it is slimmer and travels faster.
 
SOYBOMB, my source for shooting the pelvis has been from several firearms instructors. They give it as an alternative to a head shot.
Its certainly a hotly debated discussion. Personally I've got to go with the combat surgeon over the firearms instructor for their opinion on whats most damaging to the body but to each his own.

I personally do not put much stock in FACKLER anymore. He was a big proponent of the 147 grain "HEAVY" 9m.m. round. It proved to be a lousy load in the 9m.m.
That should have surprised no one as it basically duplicates the standard velocity .38 Special loads.
Do you have a source for that? I'd like to see the data that shows its lousy. I've seen nothing to indicate that. And really it does far better than a .38 load. To my knowledge there is no standard pressure .38 spl load that reliably expands through fabric like say 147gr winchester ranger.
 
I agree with the poster who said that if you are worried about a home invasion, to go ahead and beef up your home. Good doors, locks, exterior lighting, an alarm system, and a good dog are all useful. You can also 'harden' windows by using a laminate on them that makes them virutally shatterproof.

I also beleive that BA use by the bad guys will increase. It's easy to see the advantages that BA offers, and not all criminals are stupid. Even if they can't legally obtain it...that doesn't mean that they can't get it.

As to the OP's original question. I think it's been answered. No common handgun round will reliably penetrate soft armor. A centerfire rifle is required. But any gun to defend yourself is better than none.
 
There have been a couple home invasions around here (B-more/DC area) involving 5+ armed perps and soft body armor. Basically, I think a good alarm, strong doors and windows are just as important, if not more so than deciding between a skinny or fat bullet. The more time you have the better, and waking up to a blaring alarm, or barking dog with a few seconds before someone can enter the house beats waking up with a gun pointed in your face anyday. That being said, I am an advocate of using carbines or shotguns for HD. In a stressful situation you will probably be shaking, making it quite hard to reliably hit anything other than COM, a long-gun is supported by at least three surfaces of the body, and tends to be easier to accurately aim in close quarters under stress, and most any common armor BGs are going to get their hands on is easily defeated. IMO loading different types of rounds introduces inconsistencies, and the difference in recoil can throw you off if more than one shot is required, the subject has been beat to death, but quality JHP ammo in service caliber handguns is the way to go, where even minor differences in shot placement will likely play a larger role in the effectiveness than the differences in the balistics of 38+p/9mm/40S&W/45acp.


also for those who use a shotgun or a carbine for home defense (M4gery w M193 ball ammo is my choice) look at this thing, similar to the "rack system" I have been using to keep my AR close for yearshttp://www.the-backup.com/buy/commercial.php
 
alucard0822,

Your post summarizes this thread quite well. First, secure your home entry points and install good lighting outside; second, install an alarm or get a dog to wake you up; and lastly, if BA is a true concern get a rifle for HD. If after implementing all these deterrents you still feel vulnerable to a home invasion change to another neighborhood or go to the shrink. :)
 
When dealing with armoured intruders, I'd invest in shot placement. Don't rule out groin shots with a round that will penetrate. Through the groin runs 2 femoral arteries, and 2 femoral veins. Each is about the size of your thumb and are major blood loss if they are perfed. There's also a lot of nerves in the region. The pelvis moves less than the head, and it's a larger target. Kneel(duck) before shooting, and it's a nice eye level shot. The bonus to kneeling is that you become more stable, and a smaller target.
 
Before I purchased my last Kevlar vest (when I was a LEO), the manufacturer sent me a sample patch of their vests - neither my 9mm or my .357 went through the one that I shot at. It caught both of the nicely, and the bullets were nestled safely in the material......
 
Soybomb

SOYBMOB, the published source that I use is the STOPPING POWER book by MARSHALL & SANOW. Since you quoted FACKLER, you probably will not accept their work. I do and my agency has enough experince with loads that MARSHALL & SANOW say work, that I give them credibility.

The firearm instructors that told me about the pelsis shot work for my ageny. We have many ex-Border Patrol people and they get a lot of field experience.


Loads that MARSHALL & SANOW say work. These loads are or were used by my agency with excellent results.

.357 magnum 110 and 125 grain
9m.m. +P+ 115 and 124 grain
.40 caliber 155 grain at 1,170 to 1,200 feet per second

FACKLER writes that deep penetration is a necessity and that usually requires a heavy bullet. The above loads have worked very well for my agency and I never heard any complaints of failure to stop being blamed on our ammo. Officers complained about a great many things in our agency, but not about the effectiveness of our ammo.

My agency passed up on the 180 grain .40 caliber because they just did not work as well as the higher velocity 155 grain loads.

Jim
 
Get a shotgun for home defense.
A handgun is a personal defense weapon.
Why go to a gun fight with a pea shooter?
 
Handguns, while certainly up to the job, pale in comparison to long guns for most any task.

The 12 ga. shotgun is an excellent choice for home defense, as is a SBR AR-15 with a silencer. The former can be purchased at Walmart, the later cannot.
 
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