Home Visit By the ATF

[Trebor]

Trebor, don't we have to keep our bound book for at least 20 years and still record disposal information, etc?

For a C&R holder? I can't say for sure.

I did keep my book, but no longer update it in any way.

I do have other normal records of any C&R related sales, so I could update my book if needed, but if I don't have the license, why would I need to update the book?

I think I could actually destroy it if I wanted, but I'm not totally sure on that either, so I'm not recommending that unless you know for sure.

 

[EOD Guy]

Trebor, don't we have to keep our bound book for at least 20 years and still record disposal information, etc?

No. Only licensees need to maintain a "bound book". If you let your license expire, you are no longer a licensee. That's why other types of licensees have to forward their records to BATF when they are going out of business.

I do have confimation, in writing, from BATF Hq concerning this.

 

[Animal Mother]

No. Only licensees need to maintain a "bound book". If you let your license expire, you are no longer a licensee. That's why other types of licensees have to forward their records to BATF when they are going out of business.

I do have confirmation, in writing, from BATF Hq concerning this.

So if I understand correctly, you could let your C&R expire and then decided at some point in the future decide to get a new C&R, you'd start with a new bound book. I don't suppose you'd have to re-enter any C&R eligible firearms previously obtained as they were obtained under the old license.

 

[offthepaper]

The envelope contained a copy of a brochure about illegal gun sales.

Have you sold any of the guns you used your C&R license to obtain lately? While selling a few guns to "enhance" a collection is allowed with a 03 license, it's not a license to sell FA's.
Just wondering.

 

[Blazer]

They want to be sure you are not acting as a dealer in firearms. I believe you are subject to an inspection once a year, either at your home or at their HQ.
They want to know that if you bought 15 sks's with your license that you don't only have two left. You may occasionally sell one here or there to enchance your collection.

 

[TexasRifleman]

They want to know that if you bought 15 sks's with your license that you don't only have two left.

There is nothing inherently wrong with that. There is no specific limit on how many firearms you may acquire and sell with a C&R.

You may have purchased a crate of 15 rifles, kept the best 2, and sold the rest. That is perfectly legal to do. Did it myself with a crate of 8 K31's.

Sold the worst 6 at my cost, no profit. This was simply enhancing my collection, not being "in the business". I have a nice letter from ATF saying just that.

Do it often, and at a profit, then yes you risk crossing the line but just selling guns doesn't make you "in business".

 

[outerlimit]

When I had my C&R I never got inspected. When I let it lapse, I destroyed my records as is legally allowed. I basically let it lapse a couple of years ago because they were no more C&R 'deals' left. Looks like things are still pretty much the same.

 

[Javelin]

Here is a typical phone call to someone like myself. So the ATF called me today. I said, "I guess this isn't about the Alcohol or Tobacco....."

LOL

This is why I have no damn FFL license. If I wanted to be harrassed I would just join some gym membership. Find a neighbor that has one and pay him the $10-$20 to transfer your guns. Your basically just paying them to put up with the headache. I fear it is only going to get worse too.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

Find a neighbor that has one and pay him the $10-$20 to transfer your guns.


would that be kosher?

 

[Duke of Doubt]

Sure, if they're papered through the FFL to you, or papered to the FFL and then papered to you. What they don't want are situations where sales aren't papered that "should" be ("illegal dealing"), or parties end up in possession who should be papered but aren't ("straw purchase").

 

[DaveBeal]

Find a neighbor that has one and pay him the $10-$20 to transfer your guns.

would that be kosher?

If the neighbor has an 01 (dealer) FFL and did the required NICS check on you, it would. However, if you're buying a C&R gun across state lines through a neighbor who has an 03 (C&R) FFL to avoid the NICS check, I think you both have a problem.

 

[Duke of Doubt]

Oh, yes; the only FFL you want to do a through-deal with is an FFL 1, not an FFL 3. C&R licenses are for accumulating collections, not for dealing. I think C&Rs have been abused for years with very little enforcement action.

 

[zoom6zoom]

I don't suppose you'd have to re-enter any C&R eligible firearms previously obtained as they were obtained under the old license.

Correct. You would only need to re-enter them (as "from prior collection") if you disposed of one of them under your new license, so you could then log it out.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

thanks duke and dave i think you answered my query re the bad legal advice in the earlier post well

 

[newbie4help]

He could have been a poser casing your joint for guns to steal/rob. Any objective confirmation he was in fact ATF - did you call their office in Houston?

 

[rickomatic]

Does anyone else notice a sudden increase in these types of threads?
I had an 03 C&R for 10 years, and never once even got called. I never used to see these kinds of threads about ATF visits either. Something seems to have changed.
Glad I let mine lapse.

 

[Duke of Doubt]

The C&R area is long overdue for investigation and enforcement action. A decade ago when wholesale milsurps were cheaper and more collectible and people had more disposable income, you'd see discussion and pictures on various firearms fora (not this one) about how guys were ordering dozens of nearly identical rifles with their C&R, cherry-picking the best one, and selling all the rest into their local market or online to others. I know a poster above claims he has a letter saying this is O.K. I'd love to see a redacted version of that letter uploaded here in PDF format. I'm a gun nut, and I never spoke out against that sort of abuse, but I didn't engage in it and I always expected increased enforcement at some point. Whenever I mentioned that point of view, the C&R abusers would rail against me as some sort of jack-booted thug. Ironically, the feds may have chosen just the wrong time to crack down on it, as the worst abuses were years ago, IMO, and the practice is declining.

 

[RDak]

No. Only licensees need to maintain a "bound book". If you let your license expire, you are no longer a licensee. That's why other types of licensees have to forward their records to BATF when they are going out of business.

I do have confimation, in writing, from BATF Hq concerning this.

Ok, thanks for the info. EOD.

 

[outerlimit]

I think C&Rs have been abused for years with very little enforcement action.

The C&R area is long overdue for investigation and enforcement action.

Whenever I mentioned that point of view, the C&R abusers would rail against me as some sort of jack-booted thug.

Imagine that.

If you want to make the assumption that people who bought ten rifles and cherry picked the best two in order to enhance their collection are engaged in the business of dealing, then I'm sure the ATF would love to have you wearing one of their ring wraith outfits and kicking down C&R collector's doors. I see it as a private individual enhancing their collection.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

actually it wouldn't be hard to make his assumption were the jbt really on their game a purusal of posts here would indicate some folks push the envelope quite a bit

 

[outerlimit]

Oh the irony of that..
of ATF agents with NFA firearms kicking down doors of some guy who, according to Duke of Doubt, bought too many Nagants.

 

[Duke of Doubt]

It isn't a matter of BUYING too many Nagants. It's a matter of buying them for the purpose of selling them, and selling them for money. The mere fact that you retained one or two is of little or no account. FFL 1 holders do that all the time. I've met C&R holders online who sell more guns in a year than some storefront FFL 1 dealers I've known.

 

[RioShooter]

Final Update

A week has passed since my visit from the ATF. The agent never called back. This episode seems to be over.

 

[hawmanai]

The media is getting a head of steam going with arms involved in Mexican drug crimes being traced to the US.

U.S. Is a Vast Arms Bazaar for Mexican Cartels

 

[Dorkfish]

That's a probe-and-go. They ID the C&R owner on site as well as themselves, then tell you "surprise" I'm here to look over your books and inventory.