Hornet reloading discovery!

[theCZ]

I posted this on varminthunters.com, so if it looks familiar, you know why! I've read this time and time again, but I just couldn't believe how true it is with my own gun:

Check this out, I recently bought a new neck sizing die and a forster seating die for the old hornet. Armed with a years experience in handloading, and a few nifty tools, I've recently started messing around with my frustrating Anschutz 22 Hornet. The first couple of loads I tried with Lil' Gun, WSP primers, WW brass, and 40 grain sierras weren't exciting, in face they were horrible! So today I loaded a few brand new cases with Fed. Sm. Rifle primers, and the same combo otherwise, which was not a hot load. I then loaded new cases with 12.5g Lil' Gun, 40g sierras and the winchester small pistol primers. First shot with the 205 primers showed a disturbing crack in the case! In fact, all 5 had cracks in them with VIRGIN BRASS! The small pistol primer loads worked fine, and I managed to get a 1" group for 5 shots at 100, which would be just horrible normally, but compared to the awful 3" groups were encouraging at least. So, on the left are two first time fired cases with 205 Fed. primers, and the ones on the right are 1st time fired small pistol primer loads.

 

[larryw]

Oh man, my fingers were trembling with exictement as I clicked the link after seeing the title of the thread; I thought you had solved the long standing mystery of loading that really picky cartridge.

But nooo, you just add to the confusion!!

 

[BluesBear]

Is it an optical dellusion or are the small pistol primers on the right backing out of the pocket? The newer Winchester unplated primers seem to have softer cups.

They don't appear flattened, just backed out. If so this would indicate the pressures were too low.

What primers did the manual suggest for this load? There is a substantial difference between the fire inside of a small pistol primer and a small rifle primer.

 

[RugerNo]

Appears to be a headspace problem. Primer protrusion is excessive irregardless of anything else in the internet or urban legend thoughts or solutions. Minimum rim thickness and maximum bolt slop and the load developing the primer protrusion make this apparently the problem that merits further inspection along this line. The fact this round headspaces on the rim rules out many other problems associated with reloading that leads to case separation.

 

[theCZ]

So, what can I do to fix this headspacing problem? Also, yes the small primers are backing out about 50% of the time.

 

[larryw]

OK, in all seriousness.

I take it the WSP are the ones backing out, but the 205s are staying put and the brass is taking the beating instead. Right?

I agree with RugerNo, you have a headspacing problem and more than likely, its way off. I'd bet if you take some modeling clay, butter it around a case head and rim, slowly chamber that cartridge and let the clay set and harden, when you open the bolt you'll see a thin film of clay on the face or back of the rim about the thickness of the protruding primers.

Even though SP and SR primers are the same size (as opposed to LP and LR which aren't) the body of the small rifle primer is tougher to take the higher pressures.

So what you're seeing is the weak link giving up the ghost.

In short, when the bolt is closed, it isn't squeezing on the rim; instead the cartridge is almost rattling around. This load's primer backing out because it's softer and absorbing the pressure against the rim/head by cupping and moving back. You're getting better results with the WSP because it doesn't take as much to fire it off, so ignition is better.

But the 205 is staying put and the case head gets pushed back as the case sides balloon against the chamber. So the case gives just north of the head instead. And since the case moves forward when the pin hits the harder SR, the primer is firing inconsistently and your ignition suffers. I'll bet the firing pin indents are inconsistent and shallow too, right?

Bottom line, you need to get this rechambered and/or respaced. Call Anschutz and find out if that's a warranty item.

 

[theCZ]

larryw - Great post!

Doubtful that I can get any warranty work done on it, the rifle was made in 1957! I called a local gunsmith and they wanted $125 to fix the problem. I'm not able to afford that right now, so it'll have to wait.

 

[bogie]

Easy quick fix.

Start with a "start" or light load.

Seat your bullets long enough that they jam in chamber's throat. That'll provide the headspacing when you close the bolt on an unfired case. Essentially you'll create a new shoulder on the cases. But I'll guess you'll have a thou or three unsupported right before the rim.

DO NOT FL RESIZE these cases. Just neck size.

The rest of you guys - any reason to not fireform? I do have to admit that I'm NOT familiar with loading for the hornet, and I personally would not try this without confirmation that it'd work okay from someone else.

 

[larryw]

Bogie, good thought, but I don't think the 5* shoulder angle of the 22 Hornet will lead to the desired effect.

But that's also a good idea that can't hurt to try; I hope I'm proven wrong. As the head of the 22H is thin, you'll need to keep the loads light so we don't have unsupported chamber problems.

 

[RugerNo]

You can fireform the Hornet, but case life will be real short. If this is a rifle being frequently used, leave it sit and save money for repairs.
Hornets can be finicky when all's in tolerance as to accuracy and the bolt could be where the problem lies. My thoughts are it is a rear locking proposition. Correct me if I'm wrong please. There was a time when Anschutz was living off their reputation. They had Savage peddling them trying to help both in sales. Quality was not the greatest to say the least. Seems to me there is an Anschutz web site. A google search may give you background on that. The point being, a Hornet developing headspace is rare in the cheap old M43 Winchesters. Why in an Anschutz?

 

[bogie]

Oh yeah - you may wanna check another coupla gunsmiths.

Step 1: Unscrew the barrel.

Step 2: Get true in lathe.

Step 3: Take x-thousand (however much is needed) off the spot where the barrel contacts the front of the receiver.

Optional: Cut off a coupla threads, set up the headspacing distance correctly, and cut a new improved hornet chamber. Wont' take much cutting.

Step 4: Screw it back in.

If the thng has sights on it, either lose 'em, or reposition 'em.

 

[theCZ]

I'm emailing Anschutz today, but in the meantime, I'm not touchin' the thing for a while. I've got a great CZ 223 that has never let me down, and I'll probably leave that old hornet in the safe until I graduate college (May) and have some money to throw at it.

 

[macavada]

Please update if Anschutz responds.

 

[happy old sailor]

does it appear that the two cases on the left have stretch marks above the rims? if so that is a real no no. mike these cases, could be informative.

 

[The Bushmaster]

Backed out primers....A little note dealing with this problem on a 1948 .30-30 Winchester Mod 94. Having primer problems I talked to a very good gun smith (NRA Top 100) and he told me to move the shoulder forward by full sizing .030" short of full then fire them in the rifle and repeat the process each time I load the cases. End of primer back out. My chamber is just slightly worn and the bolt block is also. Only one problem...My son is mad at me because he can't chamber them in his new .30-30 Winchester Mod 94. Lock up is too tight.

 

[theCZ]

Anschutz just got back to me, with a dissapointing answer. It seems that they didn't really read the email, just sent me a generic "if it looks bad, have a gunsmith look at it." So they don't cover that kind of stuff, which is not suprising considering the rifle is almost 50 years old. So I'm waiting until I've got some more money to throw away to get it fixed.

 

[TonyT]

Lil' Gum showed case seperation in 410 shotgun loads

I have never used Lil' Gun in reloading the 22 Hornet, although I thought about it when I saw the Hodgdon data with the low chamber pressures.
Several shooters at our local club tried using it with WIn AA cases in the 410 shotgun. They stopped using it because it caused head separations much more frequently than any other shotgun powder. I wonder if the phonomena could be related/
Tony

 

[theCZ]

Hmm, I've never heard that about Lil' Gun. I would think that if that was a problem, it at least would not show up after the first shot from new brass, unless there was a serious headspacing problem.

 

[RugerNo]

I just reread your original post on this issue. 1. You have a headspace problem. 2. The use of rifle primers multiplies this problem. With the small-short Hornet cartridge, the rifle primer in itself causes the bullet to move BEFORE the powder ignites. NOW you have a stuck bullet in the lands and the powder ignites causing an abnormal pressure spike and dangerously stretches the case because of excess headspace. Small pistol primers are the answer with the Hornet, period. Case crimp with the thin case is not that good to hold the bullet for consistent ignition.
Rocky Raab at the Reloading Room or Huntchat with the "dots" can verify this as well. Your own groups with the pistol primers being better show this and maybe you have a better perspective on this situation, now. Lil Gun has made a lot of Hornets shoot, but the lighter pistol primers are icing on the cake. Keep digging and you'll see results.

 

[ClarkEMyers]

Headspace IS the problem - might gage the cases

Sectioning the cases will likely show a stretch mark all the way around at the level of the cracks. Might try feeling for stretch with a stiff wire (bent paperclip) on cases that did not separate - or sectioning assorted cases.

Might also gage the cases with any of the other systems with case holders and gages. I expect the Wilson and other simple tools to concern themselves with rim depth only - sadly given the Hornet shoulder is not something to rely heavily on. I can't speak for your gun but it has been common to build Hornets on basic .22 rimfire actions with such things as rear lockup on the bolt handle. For amusement only you could add shims to the back of a case and see what the bolt will close on.

Might also consider a K-Hornet rechamber and headspace on the shoulder - but I'd not be astounded to find a bolt that once setback keeps setting back.

 

[BluesBear]

the rifle primer in itself causes the bullet to move BEFORE the powder ignites. NOW you have a stuck bullet in the lands and the powder ignites causing an abnormal pressure spike

Was this meant to be serious?

 

[RugerNo]

Blues Bear, yes it is serious and I suggest you aquaint yourself with the facts of appropriate primers for use with light bullet pull applications in thin walled cases and ball powders.
There are many revolver shooters aware of this phenomon in the 45LC and magnum loadings with ball powders. A very good reason to not lower H110 loadings below reccommended charges. Erratic ignition causes inaccuracy as was exhibited with the rifle primers. I hope this makes it easier to understand.

 

[BluesBear]

Since I am extremely aquainted with the facts of appropriate primers for all uses on centerfile small arms ammunition.

I am also extremely familiar with the erratic ignition bugaboos of reduced charges.

But if you are trying to tell me that, when using non-contaminated components, the primer can push the bullet into the throat/forcing cone faster than it can ignite the powder...
AND create an abnormal pressure spike ...

 

[RugerNo]

In the quest for knowledge and to add to my previous post;
1. the primer in itself can create upwards of 16,000psi pressure and in the confined little Hornet case pops the bullet into the lands, period.
2. Lil Gun is a slow burning powder which we all know means it has a coating to highly retard combustion to keep the pressure curve low thruout the burning process. Knowing this, in this Hornet's case the powder now ignites building pressure behind the bullet which is now a bore obstruction and creates a pressure spike higher then the one that is experienced with the gentleman's pistol primer loads. The case walls held the case forward in the chamber in both cases causing a protruded primer with the pistol primer load, but stretched the rifle primer load to the point of near case failure. The tensile strength of the brass being lower then the pressures generated in the rifle primer load. Erratic ingnition in generic terms, but the explanation of this gentleman's problem exacerbated by a head space problem.
3. FWIW, this same phenomona occurs in the modern inline muzzleloaders using 209 primers and and heavy charges of BP substitutes. Erratic ignition and an explanation of one of its causes.
I apologize for my extended posts, but it is necessary to understand the importance of primer problems and their application in regards to erratic ignition. Thanks for reading.

 

[GooseGestapo]

Ruger No

Actually, what you're seeing, I've to a greater or lesser degree have seen in all my Hornets, and the .30/30 as well.

This is attributable to the slight shoulder angle, normal tolerances, and relatively low pressures of the two cartridges.

TheCZ:
What is happening is that you have what appears to be cases full length sized that have been excessively sized.
I don't think that your headspace is all that excessive, I had simular results with an H&R Topper back in the early '70's while I was in college.
It appears less with the rifle primers because they are indeed developing slightly more pressure than the pistol primers. (I have used both with the same 40gr Sierra HP and 12.5gr of Lil-gun is my preferred powder charge. Best accuracy -just under 1", and 3,000fps). This load is about 10,000 to 12,000 psi under most other loads for the Hornet.

At this low pressure, there is not enough back thrust to stretch the case to force it back against the bolt face and "re-seat" the primer back into the primer pocket.

The solution I've always used is to fireform the brass with the first loading by seating the bullets out to minimize the setback and stretching. And then, I partially full length size to just "kiss" the shoulder. I also usually trim the cases after the first firing to get the case length right after the first stretching.

Yes, I find that full length sizing this way gives better accuracy in most Hornets because, they then "lie" in the chamber the same way each time. My best accuracy ever with a Hornet came just this way with 11.4gr of AA-1680, a Winchester Small Pistol primer, and a Hornady 50gr SX seated out to 1.860", to where they just touched the rifling in my Ruger 77/22kbz for a .560" 5 shot group. Cases had been weighed and segregated, and as stated, once fired. I have never been able to duplicate this since! Even with same batch of brass!
Just perfect range conditions, I suppose! But I did have several witnesses, and I still have the group!

FWIW, I recently was tinkering with some .30/30 loads and RL-15. At 1.0gr below max, I was getting the same primer extrusion you are getting with your Hornet. Upping to max., the extrusion went away, but after resizing and mikeing them, I got .005" case stretch too!

Check your OAl's after re-sizing the Hornet cases. I think you'll find that the primers that were extruded less, had actually been pushed back into the pocket due to brass stretch. Yes, it comes from in front of the web and will in 7-10 loadings cause incipient case separation.

Again, as stated, the solution is to not completely size to where the shoulder is set back. However, I have tried leaving the slight "hump" in front of the shoulder with the "secondary" shoulder left where the neck was not completely sized down. I don't get as good of accuracy this way due to the slight but unavoidable inconsistenacy in the roundness of the chamber causing the bullets to be slightly misaligned with the bore. Sizing just to the shoulder is best in my experience with both the .30/30 and Hornet.

Best solution besides "tweaking" the reloading?

Rechamber to .22 K-Hornet. However, this MUST be done by a VERY GOOD gunsmith, and setting back the barrel to completley clean up the chamber and re-cut the throat. Back in the early '70's, I picked up a used Ruger No.3 in .22 Hornet. It had been reamed to K-Hornet, but not marked. Imagine my suprise at extracting the first case I fired! I found out quickly too, why the gun had been traded! Groups the size of Basketballs were the norm! But, I at least let the RCBS dies that cost me a fortune go with the rifle! The run-out and off-centered chamber was very evident with the fired cases. Cases would only last 2-3 firings before they would split just in front of the web from excessive working.

I'm just content with my Hornet and 1.25" groups, as it serves me very well and is an enjoyable rifle to shoot, not to mention inexpensive too! I suggest you leave "well enough" alone, and just figure out what your Hornet wants to be fed (as you have already found out), and enjoy it! After all, its not a bench-rest gun. If you want REAL tack driving, get you a Sako 75 Varmint in .22 PPC.

Now those will shoot .75" on a REALLY BAD day!

Actually, the best of all possibilites would be to send some fired cases to one of the die manufacturers and have a custom set of dies made where you will have minimal sizing both in diameter and length. This sould do a better job of "fitting" the cases to your chamber. I actuality, this may be cheaper than having a gunsmith "blue-print" the chamber and action.

There is a fellow in Conneticut that specializes in doing this to Rugers as they are especially apt to have excessive headspace due to the way the bolts are two piece. I "fixed" mine by making a "c" ring to go inside the bold from a piece of aircraft safety wire. Before doing this, it would not extract fired cases because of the excess "slop" in the bolt prevented the lugs from "camming" the case from the chamber upon opening. He too charges 135.00 to 175.00 for this, which includes setting back the barrel and recutting the chamber to either a minimal Hornet, or a K-Hornet chamber.

I have passed on doing this "solution" as I would probably trade the gun before putting that kind of money into it.

Mostly because as is, as stated, it will shoot 1.0" to 1.25" with the Sierras, and has taken over 2 dozen deer, a red fox, and numerous crows, and other pest species. Good enough for Me!

If I need better/more, I get out the Rem Mod7 in .223!