D.B. Cooper
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How’s your church security?
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The church is willing to watch a longtime wonderful congregant depart simply over their wish to preserve their God-given rights?
D.B. Cooper
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John Corriea, over at Active Self Protection on youtube, posted a series of videos on church security a few years back. I think it's the bulk of his presentation at a symposium or something. He used to be a pastor himself.
To hear him tell it, church security is about farrrr more than carrying a gun. He covers a lot of different concerns in the videos. I'll post a link below to the first in the series. YT links to the next one on each video. There's about 9 or 10 IIRC, at about 10-12 mins each, so it will take you a couple hours to watch them through. Good stuff, though.
To hear him tell it, church security is about farrrr more than carrying a gun. He covers a lot of different concerns in the videos. I'll post a link below to the first in the series. YT links to the next one on each video. There's about 9 or 10 IIRC, at about 10-12 mins each, so it will take you a couple hours to watch them through. Good stuff, though.
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Phaedrus/69
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The last time I was in church I was armed but that was in '92, hard to say now.
huntsman
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If he can be an asset he should join the team.
There’s always guys who think they would be “good” for the team but they just don’t want to make the time commitment, We treat it as a ministry and commitment is required.
Choctaw
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We have a uniform officer out front and several armed security team members scattered throughout the buildings in plainclothes as well as manned surveillance cameras covering the exterior doors. All of us are either current or former law enforcement.
D.B. Cooper
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This is one (of many) of the drawbacks I see in these "mega churches." (Membership in the thousands.) I don't know the names of every family in my church (membership 200-300), but I know their faces-who belongs and who is new. Those mega churches may have larger pools of resources from which to draw, but I've never grasped how they form community.
For example, some have said that the majority of their "security team" are current/retired police. In a congregation of thousands of people, the odds are that more than a few fit that description, but in a congregation of a couple hundred, it's likely that none of the members have that background. Yet, those officers in those mega churches have no idea who is a member and who is not. And that's assuming that a threat would always come from outside the congregation.
Private Citizen
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In the large urban environment where I live, the bishop is an outspoken opponent of firearms. Security at our church is all but non-existent, notwithstanding the shocking number of shootings that occur in our city each week, as well as in Houses of Worship across the country. Consequently, Mrs. PC and I don't attend as frequently as we used to and take what steps we think appropriate to enhance our safety.
Evidently the bishop doesn't understand that "Hope is not a plan."
Evidently the bishop doesn't understand that "Hope is not a plan."
whisler
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Had a lady at the gym tell me that they now actually had someone who was armed at their services now. My reply was" Only one? We go to a small church and I know of at least 6." She just smiled and nodded.
Good Ol' Boy
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I was extremely involved in church growing up, i.e. until about 20. My wife and I have long since moved away and still haven't found a suitable church, yet. Seems like 99% are Methodist or Baptist, neither of which are of interest to us.
That said, if I was a part of a congregation I absolutely would be carrying and unless they already had a security team in place would not be advertising.
Personally I think in this day and age it behooves any congregation to have an armed security team and not have any qualms with having CC's as regular members.
That said, if I was a part of a congregation I absolutely would be carrying and unless they already had a security team in place would not be advertising.
Personally I think in this day and age it behooves any congregation to have an armed security team and not have any qualms with having CC's as regular members.
D.B. Cooper
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Yeah, well...I notified the head usher (also head of "security") of my intent to start carrying; he said they would prefer I not. Kind of irks me.
As a security team member, and soon director at one congregation, Inhave no problem with a carrier,IF they consistently train and shoot. If it hits the fan, and the muscle memory and habits of training are not there, adrenaline causes some crazy decisions, and uh-oh…
I've been thinking about this thread for awhile...
A bunch of people bringing their own guns and doing their own thing doesn't make a security team any more than a bunch of people bringing their own instruments and each playing whatever song they want makes a band.
Along the same lines, if there is already a band, it's really not all that hard to understand why the band director might tell people who haven't practiced with the band to leave their instruments at home. (By the way, being able to understand a person's possible motivations is not the same as agreeing with them or advocating their actions. That should go without saying, but I'll state it explicitly anyway.)
My feeling is that if you want to help provide security for the church (or any other similar organization), join the security team and be willing to "try out and practice with the band".
If there's no security team, see about forming one. Keep in mind that this isn't just going to be forming a club of people who have carry permits--there needs to be a real effort to organize things, to plan for various scenarios, assign tasks, to make sure you have backups to cover the inevitable absences, to train, etc.
If no one wants a security team except for you, think about what you want to do and can do on your own and take steps to make sure you can achieve your goals. Having a gun is just the first step--like buying an instrument is only the first step in becoming a musician.
Things can happen very fast, people need to be where they need to be, ready to act, knowing what they need to do, knowing that they can do it based on their training, knowing what others will be doing, etc. Team members need to practice in realistic situations. If they expect to be seated at the beginning of the scenario, they need to choose a carry method that allows them to draw rapidly while seated. They need to practice drawing from whatever carry/concealment method they will actually be using. You don't want a team member to get killed because they can't draw while they are sitting down and/or because they haven't practiced drawing from their actual carry/concealment rig. Training needs to be done with the guns and rigs that will actually be carried, not with the favorite range toy and an unconcealed competition type holster.
The training results are critical to determining what the capability of the team will be and that, in turn, plays into how to plan for various scenarios, knowing what to do and what not to do. Team members should be positioned so that if they need to shoot, the line of their shot has the least chance of hitting the people they are there to protect. Planning to stand up and shoot over the heads of seated congregation members who might also stand up in panic to run isn't the ideal strategy--just like using the congregation as a backstop isn't a great idea. Things like this need to be thought/planned out.
Now, am I saying that no one could ever stop a mass shooting unless they have professional training? Of course not. But this isn't about proving a point, there's an important goal at hand that goes beyond ego and that makes it worth putting in the effort to get things right.
Well, that is, of course, unless you're like me. Once I put on my gun, I gain superhero powers--I know the bad guy will always lose and I'll always save the day and get the medal.
A bunch of people bringing their own guns and doing their own thing doesn't make a security team any more than a bunch of people bringing their own instruments and each playing whatever song they want makes a band.
Along the same lines, if there is already a band, it's really not all that hard to understand why the band director might tell people who haven't practiced with the band to leave their instruments at home. (By the way, being able to understand a person's possible motivations is not the same as agreeing with them or advocating their actions. That should go without saying, but I'll state it explicitly anyway.)
My feeling is that if you want to help provide security for the church (or any other similar organization), join the security team and be willing to "try out and practice with the band".
If there's no security team, see about forming one. Keep in mind that this isn't just going to be forming a club of people who have carry permits--there needs to be a real effort to organize things, to plan for various scenarios, assign tasks, to make sure you have backups to cover the inevitable absences, to train, etc.
If no one wants a security team except for you, think about what you want to do and can do on your own and take steps to make sure you can achieve your goals. Having a gun is just the first step--like buying an instrument is only the first step in becoming a musician.
Things can happen very fast, people need to be where they need to be, ready to act, knowing what they need to do, knowing that they can do it based on their training, knowing what others will be doing, etc. Team members need to practice in realistic situations. If they expect to be seated at the beginning of the scenario, they need to choose a carry method that allows them to draw rapidly while seated. They need to practice drawing from whatever carry/concealment method they will actually be using. You don't want a team member to get killed because they can't draw while they are sitting down and/or because they haven't practiced drawing from their actual carry/concealment rig. Training needs to be done with the guns and rigs that will actually be carried, not with the favorite range toy and an unconcealed competition type holster.
The training results are critical to determining what the capability of the team will be and that, in turn, plays into how to plan for various scenarios, knowing what to do and what not to do. Team members should be positioned so that if they need to shoot, the line of their shot has the least chance of hitting the people they are there to protect. Planning to stand up and shoot over the heads of seated congregation members who might also stand up in panic to run isn't the ideal strategy--just like using the congregation as a backstop isn't a great idea. Things like this need to be thought/planned out.
Now, am I saying that no one could ever stop a mass shooting unless they have professional training? Of course not. But this isn't about proving a point, there's an important goal at hand that goes beyond ego and that makes it worth putting in the effort to get things right.
Well, that is, of course, unless you're like me. Once I put on my gun, I gain superhero powers--I know the bad guy will always lose and I'll always save the day and get the medal.
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The Night Rider
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If I go to church tonight and it's all of a sudden posted, I'd honor it. TBH I'd ignore it tonight because I'm not comfortable leaving my gun in my car even with lock box but going forward I would honor it. And I would continue to go to that church.
As far as I'm concerned they're only a very few acceptable reasons to leave a church.
In no particular order
1. They're preaching unscriptural doctrine.
2. You moved out of town.
I honestly believe the church that I'm in is the church I'm supposed to be in and I honestly believe that's not going to change depending on whether or not I can carry a gun to church
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The Night Rider
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I was on my church's security team several years ago. I absolutely believe that God lead me to step down. I believe in serving in your local congregation but I also believe in making room for others to serve as they're lead.
Because of my prior involvement with the security team most of the church staff is aware that I carry a gun. They probably don't give it a whole lot of thought but they're aware of it. I don't see any reason to announce that to anybody.
Should I have cause to leave this church (see my previous post) I would not inform the staff/volunteers/church leadership of whatever new church I ended up at that I have a permit or that I even have any interest in guns.
I meant what I said about not discussing my church's security plan (which has probably changed since I've been on the team anyway) but some things are public knowledge.
The security team at my church are all uniformed. You can tell at a glance who is on shift at any given service.
Their policy is in event of a disturbance if at all possible only uniformed security team members should respond.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, unless I'm legally prohibited I carry a gun everywhere I go period. church is no different.
Because of my prior involvement with the security team most of the church staff is aware that I carry a gun. They probably don't give it a whole lot of thought but they're aware of it. I don't see any reason to announce that to anybody.
Should I have cause to leave this church (see my previous post) I would not inform the staff/volunteers/church leadership of whatever new church I ended up at that I have a permit or that I even have any interest in guns.
I meant what I said about not discussing my church's security plan (which has probably changed since I've been on the team anyway) but some things are public knowledge.
The security team at my church are all uniformed. You can tell at a glance who is on shift at any given service.
Their policy is in event of a disturbance if at all possible only uniformed security team members should respond.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, unless I'm legally prohibited I carry a gun everywhere I go period. church is no different.
JohnKSa put it so well. I'm aware of so-called teams that are basically folks with LTCs but have little professional training. Their training and practice is basically rounds at the square range. No FOF, team tactics, etc. Some were military but is that sufficient to be a team? No training in needed ancillary skills such as bleed out first aid. When arguing for 'team' members to train up, they are resistant as they already know how to do whatever. Guns, Taurus 85s in their pockets as they are inexpensive. I've gotten one friend to move up to a G26 but not to get real training or even try a competition. Despite excellent training resources near by - no takers.
Might they be successful, I hope so. However, calling themselves security teams - not really.
Might they be successful, I hope so. However, calling themselves security teams - not really.
D.B. Cooper
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I don't know. Have you heard what passes for "music" on modern radio?
What makes the "band leader" so special?
I'm pretty much completely fed up with this mentality. I'm sick of being told to rely on others for my own safety, or even whether or not I live or die. No one is coming to save you! Wether we live or die is of no consequence to them. Parkland and Uvalde has proven that beyond a shadow of a doubt. The people who are telling me to depend on them for my safety are perfectly willing to listen to the gunfire as I die, and wait until it's all safe for them to take ay action at all. I no longer have any faith in law enforcement, security, whatever.
The Night Rider
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It's his music hall?
First I made one pretty important caveat "If at all possible."
The intent of the policy is not to stop you from defending yourself from somebody right in front of you. They're telling you they don't want you running out into the parking lot from the back of the building to involve yourself in a situation that you wouldn't otherwise have been involved with at all.
Second, their house, their rules. Either submit to pastoral authority or find another church.
aaaaa
Member
Sounds like they need an education. I found a website for Christian gun owners that has a page on church security and the page displays a book about church security.
https://www.christiangunowner.com/volunteer-armed-church-security.html
On a more fundamental level, this book lays out the biblical case for self defense and defense of others:
A Time To Kill: The Bible And Self Defense
I heard about it in a Massad Ayoob book and it is endorsed by him:
-- Massad Ayoob, In The Gravest Extreme
aaaaa
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Yes, and I have not read the book they present, but hopefully it would address how a church deals with concealed carry of members not on the security team. I don't think telling them they are not welcome to carry at the church is the solution, but maybe they would have to have the higher level of training that the security team has and understanding to stand down unless the situation makes them the key person able to deal with a threat.
Yes, the other book is irrelevant to forming a church security team, but is very useful for those members who do not believe in self defense for Christians or who have questions or reservations. One needs to be convinced they are in the right to carry, and use in the right circumstances, lethal force. Guess I should have started a separate thread since it is not directly on topic.
Nothing at all other than that a band needs a leader to be effective, just like a team does. It's not about ego, it's about working together effectively and about having a coherent plan in terms of how to prepare, train and respond.
My personal feeling on the matter is that a person who doesn't want to join the security team should still be able to carry at church, for exactly the reason you stated--for their own safety. It is important to understand that having an armed team on the scene changes the overall situation considerably. Just as things change considerably in a self-defense situation once armed first responders are on the scene.
I tried to focus on practicalities in my post above, and in this one. It's important to understand that when it comes to getting results in the real world there are good ways to undertake a process and bad ways to undertake the same process. It's just as important to understand that humans didn't start forming teams and cooperating because it elevated individual rights and freedoms but rather because it was possible to achieve goals which could not be achieved by an individual working alone.
herrwalther
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The church shooting that happened in Vestavia Hills, AL is less than 50 miles from where I was a security team member and contributor. The current leadership is considering reforming the team and I was asked in an email if I would resume the role. Knowing the prayer leader would not take the suggestions I would have, I declined.
aaaaa
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Wow, it should not be up to a single person such as a prayer leader, but I would think a committee, or the board of elders, something like that.
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