How about this +P 38 Special load?

[Smaug]

I rolled a small batch of 38 +P last night, but am having second thoughts.

Brass: 38 Spl
Powder: Win 231, 5.3 gr. (Lee Dipper, 0.5 cc)
Bullets: 105 gr. hard cast lead
Primers: Win Small Pistol

The Hodgdon data I found says 4.8 gr. is the max. load. (recommended start at 3.8)

Do you think that 4.8 gr. max considering 100 year old guns, or would a modern 38 +P gun like the LCR handle it OK? I couldn't find any published +P loads with Win 231; they switch to other powders when they go +P.

If not, would it be OK out of a .357 Ruger SP-101 or .357 S&W Model 19?

I'm wondering how hot you've tried with Win 231 in a modern +P 38 Special.

The reason I did this is because the next smallest dipper, 0.3 cc, only gives 3.2 gr. and I tend to get less when I weigh the charges to check.

I do have an Auto Disc Pro powder measure, but my only press at the moment is the hand press, so that doesn't work. I've got a Reloader Press (Lee's small C-frame) on the way.

Edited to correct bullet weight from 125 gr. to 105 gr.

 

[N555]

I use almost that exact same load, but a bit hotter, a full grain hotter I fire it out of 357mag rated guns.
If the question is it too hot for a 357mag, no that's like 1 to 2gr below the start load for a 357. I don't have my manual in front of me but I think that's pretty close to the max load for a 38spl+p book load.
I find that 38 brass is common often I can get it for free and when I buy 38 brass used it's like 1/2 the price of 357. Since I only have shorter barrel 357 guns faster powders are better, I do not prefer full power 357 rounds. Also the faster powders are more consistent in the smaller 38 cases.
I load mine so they exceed the max load of a 38spl+p but are below the start load for a 357mag with the same bullet and powder combos.
And that's a perfect example why you shouldn't shoot other people's reloads.

 

[wcwhitey]

What’s the load for, testing physics, defense or just plinking? Either way the load is right in the range of +P data depending on the dimensions of the bullet used in the Lyman Manual. I understand why the number and dipper are connected but you would probably be more accurate at 10% less powder and also less risk of leading. Hard cast is great and all but over 900 fps if it’s a beveled base commercial cast I would put a ten dollar bill it will lead at the top charge (1000 fps). Your mileage may vary!

https://hodgdonreloading.com/winchester/winchester-231

EDIT: FYI Winchester’s max load is 4.8 grain at 1071 fps. So my math was close. No point in going beyond that.

 

[murf]

lyman 49th has data for a 120 gn linotype bullet and w231. max load is 5.4 grains with a max pressure of 17,900 cup. 1/10 grain less powder for 5 grains more bullet weight seems reasonable to me. i don't see a problem here.

luck,

murf

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I rolled a small batch of 38 +P last night, but am having second thoughts.

Brass: 38 Spl
Powder: Win 231, 5.3 gr. (Lee Dipper, 0.5 cc)
Bullets: 125 gr. hard cast lead
Primers: Win Small Pistol

The Hodgdon data I found says 4.8 gr. is the max. load. (recommended start at 3.8)

Do you think that 4.8 gr. max considering 100 year old guns, or would a modern 38 +P gun like the LCR handle it OK? I couldn't find any published +P loads with Win 231; they switch to other powders when they go +P.

If not, would it be OK out of a .357 Ruger SP-101 or .357 S&W Model 19?

I'm wondering how hot you've tried with Win 231 in a modern +P 38 Special.

The reason I did this is because the next smallest dipper, 0.3 cc, only gives 3.2 gr. and I tend to get less when I weigh the charges to check.

I do have an Auto Disc Pro powder measure, but my only press at the moment is the hand press, so that doesn't work. I've got a Reloader Press (Lee's small C-frame) on the way.

Well, straight up. Grab a coffee and get ready cause this might hurt a little: IF you have any doubts, pull and reload lighter. You don't have to do much more than pull the bullets*, save the powder and re-use it, save the bullets and seat them, save the primed brass, etc. and just reload them lighter. You have a scale but I'm guessing you don't have a trickler (yet)? If not, you can use your Lee dipper to trickle your charges up to where you want them (around 4.5gr?) instead of taking the lower one and being under. Bottom line though it doesn't matter what anybody here says - "yeah, no problem," or "OMG! you'll put your eye out!" - what matters is YOU having confidence and comfort in that load. That's my 2-cents and worth everything you paid for it.

* if you don't already have a puller, get an impact/hammer puller. They're super cheap and real useful.

 

[Docendo Discimus]

After looking at my notes I would say that is pretty hot. I'm not saying that it's unsafe but it is definitely in +P territory.
This combo will have a pretty sharp recoil impulse in that LCR. This is something to think about if you have any new shooters.

 

[Rule3]

I rolled a small batch of 38 +P last night, but am having second thoughts.

Brass: 38 Spl
Powder: Win 231, 5.3 gr. (Lee Dipper, 0.5 cc)
Bullets: 125 gr. hard cast lead
Primers: Win Small Pistol

The Hodgdon data I found says 4.8 gr. is the max. load. (recommended start at 3.8)

Do you think that 4.8 gr. max considering 100 year old guns, or would a modern 38 +P gun like the LCR handle it OK? I couldn't find any published +P loads with Win 231; they switch to other powders when they go +P.

If not, would it be OK out of a .357 Ruger SP-101 or .357 S&W Model 19?

I'm wondering how hot you've tried with Win 231 in a modern +P 38 Special.

The reason I did this is because the next smallest dipper, 0.3 cc, only gives 3.2 gr. and I tend to get less when I weigh the charges to check.

I do have an Auto Disc Pro powder measure, but my only press at the moment is the hand press, so that doesn't work. I've got a Reloader Press (Lee's small C-frame) on the way.

You are trying to compare Hodgdons load data between a Lead and a Jacketed bullet along with regular 38 and 38 plus P data.
Look at the data for a 125 lrnfp and the Hdy xtp there is only a .1 gr difference in the max load 4.8 or 4.9 of Win 231

On the +P data they did not test a Lead bullet

What 38 special gun are you shooting?

I would shoot it myself, It will be a hot load but you gotta do what you think best

PS: It is easy to make your own dippers from a fired brass case and then twist some mechanics wire around it, File/grind the case mouth until it holds whatever charge you want. I had so many of the plastic dippers that came with the dies I filed down some of those.

https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-data-center?rdc=true&type=53

 

[reddog81]

Hodgdon's online data has HP-38 listed for 125 grain Hornady XTP. The max is listed as 5.3 grains. Everything else being equal the hollow point bullet will have more bullet in the case, however I don't know what bullet you are using and you are using a lead bullet anyways so the data doesn't correspond directly.

I suppose I'd shoot it in a modern gun but would also bring along a .357 and probably end up putting most of the rounds through that... An LCR is kind of small and a load like that might be a handful.

 

[Smaug]

You are trying to compare Hodgdons load data between a Lead and a Jacketed bullet along with regular 38 and 38 plus P data.

Yep, we reloaders have to interpolate sometimes, when the exact combo we have on hand isn't listed.

What 38 special gun are you shooting?

As I said above, Ruger LCR, hopefully.

I would shoot it myself, It will be a hot load but you gotta do what you think best

Yeah, I was hoping for some realistic comments like this and some others based on experience, and not just ultra-conservative. I think I will start in the SP-101 and see how it feels. It will be safe, at least. Then, if it's not too stout, LCR. I do have some experience, and I too feel like this is a +P load, but with a cast bullet.

PS: It is easy to make your own dippers from a fired brass case and then twist some mechanics wire around it, File/grind the case mouth until it holds whatever charge you want. I had so many of the plastic dippers that came with the dies I filed down some of those.

This is exactly what I'm going to do. I have a whole mess of 0.5 cc dippers; I will file or dremel one down to 0.4 cc or so and that will be perfect. Actually, making a metal one out of an old 9 mm case might even be better, as static won't make the powder stick to it, like it does the Lee Dippers.

Re. the bullets, I just looked them up and found out they're 105 gr., not 125 gr. as I remembered. These are the bullets I'm using:
https://www.meisterbullets.com/AWSProducts/539-C-22-P-0/38-105-FP-Rattler

Looking at the numbers again with that in mind, this seems perfectly safe, even with the bullets moving out at > 1,000 fps.

 

[Rule3]

Look at the data for a 357 MAGNUM with a 125gr Lead bullet and HP38.W231.

The max is 5.5 gr Reduce that by 10% (differance between the 38 and 357 and you get 4.95 or so. Plus you do not need a mag primers. So I would feel OK with shooting 4.8 in a 38 Special

No, powder charges are not linear, but it works for 38 and 357. Lots of folks try to make close to 357 mag in 38 special and lots of articles on it,

 

[mdi]

Well, straight up. Grab a coffee and get ready cause this might hurt a little: IF you have any doubts, pull and reload lighter. You don't have to do much more than pull the bullets*, save the powder and re-use it, save the bullets and seat them, save the primed brass, etc. and just reload them lighter. You have a scale but I'm guessing you don't have a trickler (yet)? If not, you can use your Lee dipper to trickle your charges up to where you want them (around 4.5gr?) instead of taking the lower one and being under. Bottom line though it doesn't matter what anybody here says - "yeah, no problem," or "OMG! you'll put your eye out!" - what matters is YOU having confidence and comfort in that load. That's my 2-cents and worth everything you paid for it.

* if you don't already have a puller, get an impact/hammer puller. They're super cheap and real useful.

YES! Just last week I had to pull 20 handloads. I had inadvertently loaded some 158 gr SWC with 130 gr SWC data, so I hammered them apart and kept the components and the only thing I had to do was reflare the case mouths. I started reloading with Lee and home made dippers (and occasionally still do), but my second tool purchase was a scale; Lee Safety Scale. Since I could read a vernier scale and wasn't in a hurry for the beam to settle it worked perfectly for several years.

For "100 year old guns" I would not go to +P pressures, and most likely stick with lighter loads, but for modern 38 Special +P rated , max "standard" loads would be OK (I wouldn't shoot more than a very few in my non +P 38s. I keep my +P 38 Specials for use in my 357 Magnums and rarely go to max "standard" loads for my 38 Special snubbies)...

 

[Englishmn]

If you are worried pull a couple and see what the charge actually weighs.
Every time I load with them I scale check my lee dippers and they throw light.
It's likely they will lead but cleaning the lead is easier than hammering a bunch of rounds apart.
Try them in a 357 first.
Hot 38 isn't fun out of a light pistol.

 

[Smaug]

YES! Just last week I had to pull 20 handloads. I had inadvertently loaded some 158 gr SWC with 130 gr SWC data, so I hammered them apart and kept the components and the only thing I had to do was reflare the case mouths. I started reloading with Lee and home made dippers (and occasionally still do), but my second tool purchase was a scale; Lee Safety Scale. Since I could read a vernier scale and wasn't in a hurry for the beam to settle it worked perfectly for several years.

I have this scale; it's a good one and I like Richard Lee's design: "It's either broken or it works and is accurate."

 

[Electrod47]

That's why I have a Ruger Security Six in Stainless Steel in .357 Magnum w/2 1/2" barrel. I want to test some warm .38's I get her out as my proof gun first.

 

[Smaug]

That's why I have a Ruger Security Six in Stainless Steel in .357 Magnum w/2 1/2" barrel. I want to test some warm .38's I get her out as my proof gun first.

Rugers are generally tough guns. (I have a few and I like them)

HOWEVER... it should be remembered that they're being thick is because they use so much investment casting. Castings have to be thicker to be as strong as forgings. While Rugers do tend to be tough, we should not assume they always are.

I like how they think outside the box and use modern manufacturing means. Investment casting was one that Bill Ruger started doing. Taking an example by Glock, they moved onto using polymer frames. Now, they're using Ti liners inside stainless steel cylinders. Pure stainless steel wouldn't be strong enough in those thicknesses, but wit the Ti liner, they're good to go.

 

[wcwhitey]

@Smaug I have used 231 up and down the scale so if your happy with your load go for it, I am not worried about the pressure nor is it my revolvers it will be shot in. I gave you the data for the exact bullet you are going to use, 125 Grain RNFP beveled base. Part of what I think your missing is the bullet matters as much as the powder charge. The reason the Hogdon data stops where it does with that bullet is as likely velocity as much as pressure. Top load is 1070 fps from their test medium. Another 1/2 grain in your case will get at least that if not more assuming that their velocity is generous as it usually is. They formulate loads with data that will give you a good shooting round! The Lyman data for the 120 grain bullet is a bullet with different characteristics, it is a flat based bullet that I will bet you another $10 that takes up less case capacity. Being a little lighter and shorter it can use a larger charge safely (compare the velocity) and still be barely make 1000 fps. Full circle and to the point either you are testing the limits or you want good performing ammo. Experience tells me that the Hogdon Website data will get you a nice shooting round of ammunition that will not lead your gun up. I am sorry but choosing a round based on a dippers capacity may get you in a good place once in a while but not a reason to dig in your heals on a particular load. 1/10 up or down sometimes turns into magic.

 

[Smaug]

@Smaug I have used 231 up and down the scale so if your happy with your load go for it, I am not worried about the pressure nor is it my revolvers it will be shot in. I gave you the data for the exact bullet you are going to use, 125 Grain RNFP beveled base. Part of what I think your missing is the bullet matters as much as the powder charge. The reason the Hogdon data stops where it does with that bullet is as likely velocity as much as pressure. Top load is 1070 fps from their test medium. Another 1/2 grain in your case will get at least that if not more assuming that their velocity is generous as it usually is. They formulate loads with data that will give you a good shooting round! The Lyman data for the 120 grain bullet is a bullet with different characteristics, it is a flat based bullet that I will bet you another $10 that takes up less case capacity. Being a little lighter and shorter it can use a larger charge safely (compare the velocity) and still be barely make 1000 fps. Full circle and to the point either you are testing the limits or you want good performing ammo. Experience tells me that the Hogdon Website data will get you a nice shooting round of ammunition that will not lead your gun up. I am sorry but choosing a round based on a dippers capacity may get you in a good place once in a while but not a reason to dig in your heals on a particular load. 1/10 up or down sometimes turns into magic.

Check out my Post #9 above. Turns out the bullet is a 105 gr., not 125 gr. as I originally thought.
With that in mind, the round is not quite as hot as it would've seemed earlier.
You're right about the dippers too. I need to make more of them, and I think a 0.4 cc will be perfect. Then maybe a 0.6 cc for 45 ACP.
The thing I like about dippers as opposed to a powder measure is that it makes the whole reloading process portable. (in conjunction with a hand press) I'm taking my time, single stage loading while I watch TV and inspecting everything between stages.

 

[wcwhitey]

Check out my Post #9 above. Turns out the bullet is a 105 gr., not 125 gr. as I originally thought.
With that in mind, the round is not quite as hot as it would've seemed earlier.
You're right about the dippers too. I need to make more of them, and I think a 0.4 cc will be perfect. Then maybe a 0.6 cc for 45 ACP.
The thing I like about dippers as opposed to a powder measure is that it makes the whole reloading process portable. (in conjunction with a hand press) I'm taking my time, single stage loading while I watch TV and inspecting everything between stages.

That is light for caliber. I would still try to keep the velocity down around the 1000 fps mark. Good luck!

 

[gwpercle]

Check out my Post #9 above. Turns out the bullet is a 105 gr., not 125 gr. as I originally thought.
With that in mind, the round is not quite as hot as it would've seemed earlier.
You're right about the dippers too. I need to make more of them, and I think a 0.4 cc will be perfect. Then maybe a 0.6 cc for 45 ACP.
The thing I like about dippers as opposed to a powder measure is that it makes the whole reloading process portable. (in conjunction with a hand press) I'm taking my time, single stage loading while I watch TV and inspecting everything between stages.

I also like powder dippers for ease of use , accuracy , portability and safety ... I get to see the powder , measured out and poured into a case for a final inspection before seating a bullet .
Lee doesn't make near enough small sizes . I alter Lee dippers or make my own from fired brass cases, cut to size and #12 copper wire handles soft soldered on .
My home made ones work but the Lee dippers look better .
Gary

 

[AJC1]

Here is my issue. I load +p and 20kpsi loads for days. I only have 357s. In your situation I would not have loads that could cause failure in any gun I own. You are taking risks that I take but many more that I don't. Make very clear labels, and stay safe.

 

[2ndtimer]

I rolled a small batch of 38 +P last night, but am having second thoughts.

Brass: 38 Spl
Powder: Win 231, 5.3 gr. (Lee Dipper, 0.5 cc)
Bullets: 125 gr. hard cast lead
Primers: Win Small Pistol

The Hodgdon data I found says 4.8 gr. is the max. load. (recommended start at 3.8)

Do you think that 4.8 gr. max considering 100 year old guns, or would a modern 38 +P gun like the LCR handle it OK? I couldn't find any published +P loads with Win 231; they switch to other powders when they go +P.

If not, would it be OK out of a .357 Ruger SP-101 or .357 S&W Model 19?

I'm wondering how hot you've tried with Win 231 in a modern +P 38 Special.

The reason I did this is because the next smallest dipper, 0.3 cc, only gives 3.2 gr. and I tend to get less when I weigh the charges to check.

I do have an Auto Disc Pro powder measure, but my only press at the moment is the hand press, so that doesn't work. I've got a Reloader Press (Lee's small C-frame) on the way.

Honestly, that load isn’t THAT hot, IMO. My Sierra No. 6 manual lists their 125 gr. jacketed bullets for .38 Special with a STARTING charge of 5.3 gr of Win. 231, with a MAX charge of 6.2 gr. That is for standard .38;Special, their +P data goes up to 6.8 gr of W-231 with a 125 gr Sierra jacketed bullet. I have loaded 5.0 gr of W-231 behind a cast 158 gr SWC in .38 Special and didn’t think it was high pressure, based on ease of extraction and primers (according to Sierra, that might well have been a +P load). So unless you are shooting them in a very old, or of dubious origin, or aluminum frame lightweight .38, I would send ‘em. YMMV.

 

[Rule3]

Re. the bullets, I just looked them up and found out they're 105 gr., not 125 gr. as I remembered. These are the bullets I'm using:
https://www.meisterbullets.com/AWSProducts/539-C-22-P-0/38-105-FP-Rattler

Looking at the numbers again with that in mind, this seems perfectly safe, even with the bullets moving out at > 1,000 fps.

OH GREAT! Now we have to start all over!
And Hodgdon doesn't even list that bullet with HP 38

I disavow any knowledge of this topic!

 

[murf]

this seems perfectly safe,

how about weighing a bullet to get an actual number.

murf

 

[rfwobbly]

Your problem is wanting to load higher-end loads with a dipper. That's like wanting to do advanced brain surgery with a meat cleaver. The tools need to match the job.

In this day and age, with all the used equipment and inexpensive new digital scales available, it's laughable that anyone spends hundreds of dollars on components without spending $25 on an accurate scale. Just this morning, Ebay is showing six (6) Ohaus 505 scales (RCBS 505 and Dillon Eliminator) under $25 !!

Dippers are a great way to "get started" very inexpensively. But brother, you are plainly far beyond "getting started". Please ! Get the correct tool for the job and enjoy the increased accuracy and safety.

 

[mcb]

Your problem is wanting to load higher-end loads with a dipper. That's like wanting to do advanced brain surgery with a meat cleaver. The tools need to match the job.

In this day and age, with all the used equipment and inexpensive new digital scales available, it's laughable that anyone spends hundreds of dollars on components without spending $25 on an accurate scale. Just this morning, Ebay is showing six (6) Ohaus 505 scales (RCBS 505 and Dillon Eliminator) under $25 !!

Dippers are a great way to "get started" very inexpensively. But brother, you are plainly far beyond "getting started". Please ! Get the correct tool for the job and enjoy the increased accuracy and safety.

I whole heartedly agree. A good scale is so useful to the reloader. I have a set of Lee dippers and the little "slide-rule" chart that came with them that is suppose to tell you what charge you will get using each dipper with a particular powder. That chart is rarely exactly on, in most cases I get slightly lighter the specified charges. But I bought the dippers for working up new loads or loading small batches in conjunction with a good scale. The dippers get me close, poured on a scale, and trickled up to the exact charge I am testing/loading. I couldn't imagine using dippers for larger batches or pushing the performance up to close to the max.