How accurate are rifle shooters

[CryptKeeper5]

I'll be honest. As I grow older, I enjoy shooting from a bench a bit more. I've always been competitive so although I don't shoot benchrest I'm always in competition with myself to tighten up groups and SD. Both as a measure of how well I can keep a point of aim but also how accurately and consistently I can keep my handloads. Baking out in the sun for 7 hours, carrying gear, slinging in isn't as enjoyable as it once was! I KNOW for hunting applications I don't NEED to keep MOA, but I'll be damned if I settle for anything less than what I think I can get out of a rifle. Now, obviously that's not realistic out of my .444 Marlin on most days but the rest of bolt actions it really should be.

 

[MacAR]

Yeppers, in my previous post in this thread, I only spoke of how I am about my non-scoped rifles. When it comes to most of my scoped rifles (including my .22-250 "varmint rig") I too am "about 1/2 fanatical," or OCD, or whatever someone wants to call it.
I "tweak" my handloads for even my big game rifles until I'm getting 3 or 4 shots in an inch or less at 100. And I know full well that kind of precision is probably not necessary in the field. For that matter, I'm probably not even capable of shooting that well in the field.
On the other hand, for me, working up accurate handloads for my hunting rifles is part of the fun. Unlike a lot of other things about big game (or varmint) hunting, I can control how accurately my rifle shoots from the bench, under perfect conditions.

That's one thing that's different about deer hunting out here in Idaho compared to where you are, MacAR. I've stated in other posts that only 1 in 3 Idaho deer hunters even gets a deer - and that's in a good year. Of course we have elk, antelope (pronghorns) and moose (if I ever draw a tag) out here in Idaho too. So 1 deer every 3 years isn't so bad. Nevertheless, if the season's open, and I spot a deer standing out there at 350 yards or so, I'm darned sure going to be shooting a rifle and load that I know will do the job - if I do my part, the wind cooperates, and I have a decent rest.

Very well said. I too like to work up handloads for my rifles, as a matter of fact, I've even posted a couple threads showing groups I've shot from the bench in several of my rifles that I was quite proud of. But, as you said, I doubt I'm capable of shooting them that well in the field. Regardless, I take a lot of pride in my handloads and my shooting, practice all I can, and that way I know that when (not if) I miss my target, it'll be on me and not my rifle or ammunition. That's probably a little OCD in it's own right, but I'm ok with that. Your average rifleman should (and likely does) take equal pride in his gear. Now, your average "rifle shooter" is more like my father; he shoots the same factory ammo that he bought 10 years ago, shoots his rifle once to check the zero before season opens, then shoots it one or two more times to kill a deer or two at 200 yards or less. Otherwise, it leans up in the closet unless a varmint decides to menace his cattle. Dad gets his meat every year, and doesn't expend more ammo than necessary to do it, either. But I wouldn't call him a "rifleman".

As an aside, I did not realize that there were so few deer in Idaho. For some reason, I imagined there'd be herds of them out there. We're over-run with the bloody things here; having a garden is a constant battle. But, we don't have antelope or moose either. We've a few elk, but it's a mess of red tape to be able to even draw a tag to hunt them. One day, before I kick off, I'd like to shoot one here just to say I did it. Until then, whitetail are plentiful and they eat just as good I'd imagine.

Mac

 

[.308 Norma]

Now, your average "rifle shooter" is more like my father; he shoots the same factory ammo that he bought 10 years ago, shoots his rifle once to check the zero before season opens, then shoots it one or two more times to kill a deer or two at 200 yards or less.

Hahaha! Now you're talking about my dad! God rest his soul, Dad would run two or three factory, Remington CoreLokt rounds through his trusty .308 Winchester a few days before "huntin' season" every year. And I swear, if all three bullets hit a rock or dirt clod the size of a dinner plate at "about a 'hunurd' yards," that was "good enough" - because "the side of a deer is a lot bigger than that anyway."
I have to admit though, Dad killed as many deer as I did back then, and he killed more elk in his lifetime than I have (so far).

As an aside, I did not realize that there were so few deer in Idaho. For some reason, I imagined there'd be herds of them out there.

Yeah, going by a lot of the posts I've seen on THR over the years, I figure most folks from places where there are a lot of deer think they must be everywhere out here in the west. That's just not the case though. I can only remember one year (back in the early '90s, I think) when we were allowed to shoot 2 deer - and at least one of them had to be a doe. Most of Idaho has been one deer only (and he has to be antlered) ever since. Most areas have "youth hunts" (16 and under) though, and that's a good thing - all 3 of our grandsons, and one of our daughters were able to get their first deer (does) when they were 14 or so.
I've never eaten whitetail deer meat (we mostly have mule deer out here) but I've heard it's good. And I'll bet you're right - it probably does "eat just as good" as elk. The truth is, I used to think elk meat was like a cross between venison and beef. But my tastes must have changed over the years, because nowadays elk meat isn't all that great as far as I'm concerned. I'll take my wife's chicken fried venison steak with biscuits and gravy over grilled elk steak any time. And just thinking about antelope stew with my own sourdough-buttermilk biscuits makes my mouth water!
BTW, I'm not totally clueless about what it's like living where there are too many deer. We have a daughter that lives in the "Rattlesnake Area" (named for the creek, not the snakes) of Missoula, and there are dozens of the darned things wandering the streets there. Like you said - "having a garden is a constant battle." And of course nobody can shoot them because they're in the city.
My wife and I enjoy seeing the deer walking up and down the sidewalk in front of our daughter's place when we visit her. But then again, my wife and I are not trying to grow a garden or drive back and forth to work there.

 

[MacAR]

because "the side of a deer is a lot bigger than that anyway."

I SWEAR I've heard my dad say the same damned thing... great minds must think alike, eh?

I'll take my wife's chicken fried venison steak with biscuits and gravy over grilled elk steak any time. And just thinking about antelope stew with my own sourdough-buttermilk biscuits makes my mouth water!

Ok, that ain't fair! Now I'm hungry! You know, I've never eaten antelope. Had people tell me it was great, and that it was awful. Either way you slice it though (see what I did there? ) , speed goat would have to be pretty good dipped in egg, rolled in flour, seasoned and fried in hog lard.

"having a garden is a constant battle." And of course nobody can shoot them because they're in the city.

.

A local city has an archery-only depredation hunt each fall, as their deer population has gotten severely out of hand. Some of my bow hunter friends have killed some really, really nice bucks that way.

Now, story time:

A few years ago, a friend of mine decided to put in a field of watermelons. For the un-educated, Cave City Arkansas is basically the watermelon capitol of the state. They're highly sought after (don't ask me why) and are shipped all over the US. Anyhow. My pal puts in his watermelon patch, and the deer got started in on it pretty early. He drew some nuisance animal permits, and asked some of us to come over and help him "thin the herd" as it were. For 2 solid weeks, we took time about day and night trying to shoot the offending critters. But for whatever reason, we couldn't ever catch them eating the melons. Then one day, a couple of us were sitting in the edge of the field, and watched as an entire family of groundhogs exited an adjacent brush pile and began feasting on watermelon. Then, another entire family of coons came up from the branch below the field, and there was utter melon carnage. So we did what only good Hillbillies would do: we started blastin'. When the smoke finally cleared, the scene before us was terrible. Dead and dying critters, exploded watermelons, blood and pieces scattered across hell and half of Georgia. But there were no more "deer" issues in that melon patch.

Mac

 

[.308 Norma]

Ha! That's funny!
Thanks for the story too, Mac. I needed a good laugh!

 

[Flatbush Harry]

Sitting on a bench, off a bipod, 5 shots with my match loads:


Prone, at 1,000 yards, I'm pretty happy with 1 MOA (10.47"). Standing, in the wind, slung up at 600 yards, I won't even hazard a guess but it won't be pretty...or small.

Harry

 

[ACES&8S]

From what I see here at our home range, most people show up with JUNK scopes or mounted like an X instead
of a proper alignment or mounted too far back, parallax way off and so on.
Some have shown up with mixed ammo for deer season and only show up with 10 rounds expecting the rifle
to still be on from last year, and that was before the ammo drought but not so much any more.
Have a hard time defining average shooter around here.
Almost everyone shoots, but ok, average is about 2" at 100 yards off a bench.
Can't count the kids & new hunters, they need bulldozers to shoot at sometimes.
I show them this.

 

[Flatbush Harry]

From what I see here at our home range, most people show up with JUNK scopes or mounted like an X instead
of a proper alignment or mounted too far back, parallax way off and so on.
Some have shown up with mixed ammo for deer season and only show up with 10 rounds expecting the rifle
to still be on from last year, and that was before the ammo drought but not so much any more.
Have a hard time defining average shooter around here.
Almost everyone shoots, but ok, average is about 2" at 100 yards off a bench.
Can't count the kids & new hunters, they need bulldozers to shoot at sometimes.
I show them this.View attachment 1028655

Hi Aces&8s (all black cards, I hope), your illustration suggests that my shooting as depicted in the group above your post is Low Accuracy, High Precision. I can move to High Accuracy, High Precision with 1 click up in elevation and 3 clicks right with my MRAD 0.1 mil scope. I was more interested in how my Bergara would behave with these match loads that I use in my TRG-22. I should have used my target from my TRG-22 with a different load:



Cheers,

Harry

 

[DMW1116]

On the other hand (from my previous post) I took a couple new shooter out and they shot about 2-3 MOA from a bench. One had never shot a firearm before and held about a 5” group on a silhouette from 200 yards. He had shot air rifles. The other held about 1” at 50 yards with a scoped Marlin 336. I had mounted both scopes. Maybe the really bad shooting is from people not knowing how to use scopes properly?

 

[redneck2]

They truly believe that if they spend enough money on equipment, they can compensate for a basic lack of shooting skills.

Fishermen do it by buying tens of thousands of dollars of lures and equipment. How many golfers have half a dozen different drivers and putters? Is one REALLY going to drop your score by ten if you can’t even keep the ball out of the water?

It’s far easier to try to buy success than earn it. Human nature I guess.

 

[Dale Alan]

mounted too far back

How do you determine this ? I don't believe you can tell without seeing through the shooters eyes .

 

[DukeConnor]

Sometimes I think I am the only person on the internet who doesn't shoot one hole groups at 500 yards.

 

[Dale Alan]

Sometimes I think I am the only person on the internet who doesn't shoot one hole groups at 500 yards.

No,there are others .
So, what do you have to say about the OP's question ?
Subject:
Thinking, how accurate is the average rifle shooter. If you took at random 100 rifle shooters sat them at a bench at 100 yds and they shot a 5 shot group what would be the mean group size?
What percent 2" or more
1" or more
1"or less

 

[CryptKeeper5]

You're holding REAL hard to call THAT flyer! Nice shooting!

 

[DukeConnor]

No,there are others .
So, what do you have to say about the OP's question ?
Subject:
Thinking, how accurate is the average rifle shooter. If you took at random 100 rifle shooters sat them at a bench at 100 yds and they shot a 5 shot group what would be the mean group size?
What percent 2" or more
1" or more
1"or less

80% over 2 inches

 

[Captcurt]

The average hunter, not rifle shooter, will shoot less than 2 boxes of ammo a year. Many will shoot less than a box. My FIL was not one to spend money on ammo. A box would last him 10 years and I can count the deer that he killed on one hand. On the other hand my bud, who was on the local police force, shoots several times a month. If he squeezes the trigger on a deer or elk it is dead.

 

[CryptKeeper5]

Gotta remember that to many hunters, their rifles are tools. They may not have a gun "passion" as most of us here do obviously. They're the "hit the pie plate, good enough" crowd...and that MOD (Minute of Deer) is good enough. They really don't practice and probably rarely clean their firearms. They pull them out of the closet in Sept/Oct and go to public "sight in days", pay their $5 and shoot 10 rounds to ensure their sights are "still on". To them, that's good enough. Gets the job done....

 

[Captcurt]

From what I have seen, very few people are proficient when it comes to hunting conditions. As of date, I have not been able to get a leadsled in my treestand. Most people shoot off of sandbags, or off of a cradle rest when practicing. The best practice that I have found is to shoot from different positions without any support that you would not have in the field. I always shoot a few shots offhand when I go to the range. Most of the TV superstars have a vise in the blind to hold their gun or a shooting stick, be it bi-pod or tri-pod, even while doing a spot and stalk. Sorry, but that is just on more thing to carry. I'll pass.

 

[Sniper66]

Many times at my rifle club range, guys will show their dinner-plate size target with a 5" group and declare that they are ready for deer season. Yesterday, I was shooting .223 test loads with some Vitahvouri powder I decided try with some Nosler bullets. My 5-shot groups at 100 yds were 1.9". 1.4", .85", .75", and .7". The gun liked the speedier load. So, today I loaded 25 more rounds with some fine tuning of the load in 2gr increments. Since my targets are prairie dogs, I require greater accuracy. I think it was Cuck Hawks who said, "Only accurate rifles are interesting."

 

[Sniper66]

I meant Chuck Hawks.

 

[Chuck R.]

Many times at my rifle club range, guys will show their dinner-plate size target with a 5" group and declare that they are ready for deer season. Yesterday, I was shooting .223 test loads with some Vitahvouri powder I decided try with some Nosler bullets. My 5-shot groups at 100 yds were 1.9". 1.4", .85", .75", and .7". The gun liked the speedier load. So, today I loaded 25 more rounds with some fine tuning of the load in 2gr increments. Since my targets are prairie dogs, I require greater accuracy. I think it was Cuck Hawks who said, "Only accurate rifles are interesting."

Actually it's credited to Townsend Whelen...

 

[Hugger-4641]

I'm perfectly happy with 1.5" groups at 100yds from my 30-30. I get 1.5" or less groups at 300yds with few other rifles including my 300wm, 6.5cm, and one of my AR-15's. Thats shooting from bags. I'm not gonna take an offhand shot at much more than 100yds, why should I ? Any deer that far away is not going notice me getting into a rested position.
When I do shoot offhand, I can put all my rounds in a milk jug at 100yds, irons or scope. I do it frequently with my un-scopped SKS.That's good enough for me, don't really care if any anyone else thinks that's below average or above. But from what I've seen first hand over the years, I'm probably a little above average.

 

[xphunter]

I discount sitting at a bench in a rest at 100yds and even have a hard time with optic sights as a measure of marksmanship. Toe the 600 yard line with open sights, a sling and in a wind then we can talk true "shooting ability"...at least with a high powered rifle.

Very few people hunt with iron sights
When did that become true shooting ability?

 

[xphunter]

I have no idea what average is...
I rarely shoot iron sights at 100 yards.
I never hunt with iron sights.
There are all kind of different disciplines, and each require different skill-sets.
When hunting, I try to get as secure and typically as low as possible.
I rarely shoot off-hand when hunting, and I rarely hunt with a rifle.
I like handguns of all kinds.
Shooting prone or from the bench with my specialty pistols, I don't feel disadvantaged at all at 100 yards or a lot further for that matter.
With several of my scoped revolvers from the bench, prone or with my sturdier field rests, I can probably hold my own with whatever "average rifle shooters" are at 100 yards, 150 yards, and 200 yards.
I think that would be true, but since I don't know what "average" is I could be wrong

 

[xphunter]

Sometimes I think I am the only person on the internet who doesn't shoot one hole groups at 500 yards.

I wish I could put them in one hole at 500 yards every time. If so, I would be the winner of nationals and worlds in F-Class, and benchrest.
I have good days at 500 yards, average days, and sucky days at 500 yards