How did my friend do?

[Jamie C.]

I wonder what the prowler was doing on such a "rural" property? There must be something pretty interesting or valuable there.

Gas, 4-wheelers, cars, trucks, boats, tools, guns... and any number of other "interesting or valuable" items. 4-wheeler and boats rank in the top 10 things stolen off rural property here. Those and lawn mowers.
And no, the thieves don't always bring their own truck. Yours will do just fine. Your trailer too.


J.C.

 

[Red Tornado]

If the shots were fired at 20 feet, they were hopefully were warning shots. As mentioned, buckshot is pretty lethal at that range...that's less than 7 yards, or pistol range. If he actually shot the intruder, it would have left horrendous wounds that would require medical treatment or would surely cause the guy to bleed out. There's not much time for the shot to spread out at that distance.
RT

 

[AJ Dual]

I would say that someone at 20 feet (As others pointed out, inside "Tueller Drill" range) not responding to a verbal challenge from an armed man, and continues advancing is probably going to get a trigger pull or ten out of me too.

Other than going outside in the first place, he did okay, IMO. Although in isolated/rural circumstances with long response time I can see how staying inside does not always confer the tactical advantage. The intruder can cut communication/power lines. The intruder can set fire to the structure. After dark the intruder can possibly see into the lit structure while those in the structure may be at a disadvantage seeing out. Etc. etc. etc.

If the LEO's and the DA see it that way is another matter.

 

[wdlsguy]

It wasn't a warning shot, it was bird shot. It is a very small load that is ineffective at ranges past about 20 feet with an open choke.

Harry Whittington ended up in intensive care after being shot by Dick Cheney at approximately 90 feet.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Well, if he hasn't been arrested for ADW or sued...

Not necessarily what I would have done under similar circumstances, but then I didn't see what he saw either. Living out in the country almost demands that you own dogs IMHO. Dogs make fences work better.

lpl/nc

 

[ssfeldjager]

There was no immediate threat to life?

What if [yeah, I know...] your friend killed the person? Then what? What's the justification? Climbing over the fence and not responding when he is approaching the house? What if the person is deaf?

Regardless of the situation, in most localities, shooting at, [much less killing] another person and you not being in immediate jeopardy and the other person having the means to harm you [proxmity... weapon...intent...] your friend will be wearing his "Sunday go-to-meeting clothes" as he appears in court to try and explain why he did what he did to the court. If that happens, he should take a toothbrush and at least a week's worth of underwear. Whatever state's prison system will issue the rest.

 

[hamourkiller]

If you go look at the fence and find the fine shot patterns, look for any Silhouette shaped holes in them. If you find them then you know the person stopped some of the shot.

You can use lead BB's or hevi shot BB's if overpenetration is feared. These will kill a man way past 50 yds if shot from a full choke.

 

[revjen45]

"Bumps in the night 5 miles from town are a little different from bumps in the night in the big city."
Yup, in the city it's a lot less likely to be a racoon. (Required legal disclaimer: I am not advocating shooting someone because you live in the country and the dog barked.) Call the cops, secure the house, shut off the lights. I'm assuming the R870/M500 is already deployed and ready and Mama is watching your 6 with the SKS.

 

[Jamie C.]

There was no immediate threat to life?

A man climbs your fence at night, and continues to advance on you while you're armed and warning him to stop, I believe you probably have more than a little reason to fear for your life and general well-being.
I could be wrong, of course, but luckily the law here agrees with me. Your laws, or your own belief system might differ from mine, however.

Still, anybody in those circumstances that wants to hold their fire until they either have a knife standing up in their chest, or see a muzzle flash... be my guest.

Now, I'm not advocating being trigger-happy or blood-thirsty, but really... how long are ya gonna wait, and what evidence do you really need, to figure out that your butt is in a sling? And more importantly, will you have enough time left to do anything about it when you figure out what kind of trouble you're really in?

20 feet is close, folks. Real close. So you'd better be very sure of the other person's intentions before you stand there waiting too long.



J.C.

 

[Fred Fuller]

It's a good question to ask yourself, in fact. What ARE you gonna do if someone outside your house in the country, inside your fence, is walking toward you, empty handed with no weapon visible, and won't stop or go away when you tell them to stop or go away? What are you going to do if you are outside and he just keeps on walking toward you with a vacant smile, and you are pointing a gun at him and yelling at him to stop, to go away, to get down on the ground?

How are you going to justify shooting someone in a situation like that? The old back seat complaint of "Mama he's LOOKIN' at me" might come up a bit short in some jurisdictions at some times, depending on lots of circumstances that are not defined in this case and may well be different in lots of other cases.

Remember this one? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoshihiro_Hattori

lpl/nc

 

[Jamie C.]

How are you going to justify shooting someone in a situation like that?

Well, let me point out what I see so far, in the OP, that causes me to think I would have probably fire too:

1.) An unknown person showing up unannounced on my property at night. Strike one.

2.) Said person climbed the fence. They didn't go through the gate. ( Didn't ring the door bell as in the Hattori case, either.) Strike two.

3.) Did not respond to either verbal warning or the fact the person they were approaching was armed. Strike three

4.) Approached well within distance to do serious harm, and under conditions that made being sure they were unarmed impossible. Overall conditions and situation lean toward unknown individual not having property owner's best interest in mind. That's enough for me. Bang.

Now, all of the above is based on the very little detail given in the opening post of this thread. If there is more info revealed at a later date, I may very well change my opinion. However, given just what is there, I have to say that I would have fired too.

P.S. Remember that I'm looking at all of this as it would apply to me, here where I live now, and the laws I have to operate under. The times I have lived in a city or suburb required a different set of operating parameters, and I acted accordingly.

J.C.

 

[granuale]

Did he believe he was under imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm? Only when such a threat is presented is pulling the trigger justified. The shot # and distance is not important - he used deadly force. That is the 50 state standard for deadly force use.

I say he did not do a good job because if he really did think he was threatened, then he wouldn't have fired a "warning" shot, but gone for a stopping shot center-mass. This is why warning shots are a bad idea - if you have justification to shoot (imminent threat) then you shouldn't be doing anything other than shooting to stop the attacker. If you don't have an imminent threat then you shouldn't be using deadly force at all.

Scott

 

[tinygnat219]

Birdshot is more than effective as a defensive load, especially at 20 feet! . I've seen what birdshot does at 20 feet and it's not pretty. Now at 25 yards you have something different, but 20 feet is more than far enough for birdshot to instantly make a hole in somebody.

Whoever is telling you different has rock salt in the ears.

 

[Jamie C.]

That is the 50 state standard for deadly force use.

In some states, the law assumes "imminent threat of death or serious bodily harm" when you encounter a person or persons in your home or on your property unlawfully, or under certain circumstances.
Tennessee has such a "Castle Doctrine", and Texas has that provision in their law concerning using lethal force to protect property at night.

As I've stated, I would consider myself to be in imminent danger given the things I've outlined concerning the opening post. The law here would assume as much as well.



J.C.

 

[TallPine]

If I called the sheriff every time the dogs bark, I would be calling 20 times a day. Neither am I going to just sit in the house and ignore it. Usually, it is deer or turkeys, or maybe our own horses in the pasture. Or it could be a cougar or coyotes or a wolf. We have had two-legged predators, too. Maybe it's best I never caught them at it

City folks just don't understand ........

 

[Fred Fuller]

Now that this thread has been moved to S&T, it might be a good idea to carefully read the first post in the thread that is stickied at the top of the subforum at http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=205304 .

lpl/nc

 

[FieroCDSP]

Motion lights can be a hassle in the country, with trees, animals, etc, but there is something to be said for them. IN this scenario, a light popping on when the person closed on the house would have provided both a deterent and the two-way mirror effect on the windows. you could see out of a darkened room into the yard, but not into the house. Maybe laser or optic switches could be of use near the fences for lights-on upon yard entry. I certainly would not have gone outside without a recon from inside if possible.

 

[AndyC]

Man, I sure hope the guy wasn't a deaf-mute, out-of-gas motorist who didn't know where the gate was...

 

[Pax Jordana]

This being the high road, I trust one of you to stop me if I'm being a real dope.

So you're with your brother and you hear a noise, go outside to see an (apparently) unarmed person climbing your fence. They're trespassing and odds are they know it. So you shoot at them and they run off.

Now, if I were the fence-scaler, and I still had it in me to run off (i.e. not wounded) I wonder if I wouldn't just hide out and come jack your stuff while you're away?

All I'm saying is, if there's two of you and one of him, he doesn't seem to have anything on him, and you're both armed.. why not let him stroll in the door and prone him out? That way he's still there when the cops get around to rolling in.

Then he's a known entity with an arrest record, not just some guy you chased off, and if ever your stuff DOES disappear, you've got some idea where to start looking.

Again, I'm perfectly willing to endure peer review. I live in the 'burbs, cops always get here in time

EDITED to add: When trying to put myself in OP's buddy's shoes, I think I'd be MUCH more willing to deal with keeping the guy around a while then I am at loosing lead in his direction. That's where I'm coming from.

 

[yesit'sloaded]

Well from what I have gathered the in all the excitement my friend's brother missed with all 5 shots as the guy ran and climbed over the fence with no obvious injury. Guess that he learned that shotguns must be aimed instead of pointed in the general direction. Now I know why it takes the cops 40 rounds to hit a guy. From a bench this guy would probably shoot rings around me.

 

[BullfrogKen]

He shot 5 rounds at the fellow as he was running away???

Your friend is damn lucky he missed. I don't care what the cops said about it. I don't care if your local sheriff gave him a medal. The district attorney is the one who gets to decide who gets charged, not the police. And the judge and jury get to decide if shooting someone, in the back as they run away, was necessary under the concept of self-defense.

 

[GRB]

Very much bravado; however, it was tactically unsound. That is regardless of the possible legal consequences that could have arisen had the man been hit.

All the best,
Glenn B

 

[Jamie C.]

Well from what I have gathered the in all the excitement my friend's brother missed with all 5 shots as the guy ran and climbed over the fence with no obvious injury.

Ah. Now this is an entirely different situation. People running away from you is NOT the same as people strolling up to you.

Guess that he learned that shotguns must be aimed instead of pointed in the general direction.

One would hope so. One would also hope he learns not to shoot at people who are headed for somewhere else. ( Unless of course there are exceptionally good reasons to keep the person where they are. )

Now I know why it takes the cops 40 rounds to hit a guy.

Yeah, it's amazing the effect adrenalin can have on some people. The brain quits working, the hands and eyes get shaky... generally ruins a fellow's judgment and aim. And in this case, the ruined aim probably isn't a bad thing.

P.S. PJ- Concerning hiding out and coming back later - The person has already demonstrated he's ready, able, and willing to shoot at you. Now granted, his aim isn't too good, but are you really willing to take a chance on either him, or possibly somebody else that's in the house that you haven't seen, getting it right next time?


J.C.

 

[yesit'sloaded]

Bad way of saying it. I meant it appears the man was unharmed because he quickly scaled the fence and ran away after the shots.

 

[Jamie C.]

So you're saying there's some dimwit out there somewhere that's actually dumb enough to stand there and let somebody crank off 5 rounds of 12 ga. at 'em before they decide to run, Yesit'sloaded?

I think I'd better keep further comment to myself....



J.C.