Hog huntin Harry
Member
How can I increase my off hand semi-buckhorn shooting skill ?
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How do I get better at shooting semi-buckhorn sights ?
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DocRock
member
Buckhorn sights make a repeatable sight picture much more difficult for people used to scopes. Ensuring that the front sight is in the exact same relationship to the rear sight and the target eachshot is not easy.
You can persevere and you will get there. But getting a Williams FP aperture sight with target knobs or a Marbles tang sight will make things a lot easier.
You can persevere and you will get there. But getting a Williams FP aperture sight with target knobs or a Marbles tang sight will make things a lot easier.
mustanger98
Member
Yeah, it's part of learning, but you really need to remember to relax and breathe. I agree with DocRock's assessment.
I shot semi-buckhorn before I started shooting aperture, and that before I did much with scopes. It's all in what you're used to. The level of difficulty with buckhorns is why I said relax and breathe. Try shooting with both eyes open... again, more relaxed and you'll see better. An express sight would be easier to see than buckhorns... fast to pick up... maybe a good idea for hogs in brush... but maybe not as precise as we usually imagine ourselves.
Williams makes a good reciever sight and you can get several sizes of Twighlight aperture to hunt with. However, depending on your intended use and what you find works better for you, if your 336 is D&T'd for a tang sight, I'd advise you to get the Marbles. As I've said plenty of times, I killed my first deer with a tang-sighted .30-30.
Trey Veston
Member
Why are you wasting ammo shooting offhand groups at 50 yards?
Get the damn rifle on a bench and see what it is capable of in ideal conditions, then you can start shooting offhand to see what YOU are capable of.
Shooting open sights, offhand, with a new rifle is nothing more than making sure it functions. It is a useless exercise for determining accuracy.
Get the damn rifle on a bench and see what it is capable of in ideal conditions, then you can start shooting offhand to see what YOU are capable of.
Shooting open sights, offhand, with a new rifle is nothing more than making sure it functions. It is a useless exercise for determining accuracy.
troy fairweather
Member
Ditch the buck horns.
Trey Veston
Member
To look at it from a different angle...
A pie plate is roughly the size of the vitals area of a deer. If at 50 yards, shooting off-hand, and you can't get more than 75% of those shots in that area, then you should not be shooting at live animals with that firearm. It's simply irresponsible and unethical.
A pie plate is roughly the size of the vitals area of a deer. If at 50 yards, shooting off-hand, and you can't get more than 75% of those shots in that area, then you should not be shooting at live animals with that firearm. It's simply irresponsible and unethical.
edwardware
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Frustrating, I know. Something about what you're doing is wrong. @Trey Veston hit it; get bagged on the bench, slow down, achieve a perfect sight picture, and you'll find out what's up.
Yea, shoot from a bench 1st to verify zero and rule out the rifle as the problem. The rifle may be impacting several inches from where you're aiming which could be a big part of why you're missing. Most 30-30's should be capable of keeping all shots around 1", maybe 1 1/2" groups at 50 yards rested on a bench. Some much better than that, but it is possible you simply have an inaccurate rifle.
Once you verify your rifles zero and accuracy dry fire practice is your friend. You cannot afford enough ammo to shoot enough to get really good. Especially when shooting off hand. Make certain the rifle is unloaded and dry fire at home getting used to the trigger and concentrate on keeping the sights aligned on the target. If you see anything move as you pull the trigger you will know it would have been a miss if live firing. This is something you can do to get in hundreds of trigger pulls each day for free without going to a range. And when you do you're going to be better.
Once you verify your rifles zero and accuracy dry fire practice is your friend. You cannot afford enough ammo to shoot enough to get really good. Especially when shooting off hand. Make certain the rifle is unloaded and dry fire at home getting used to the trigger and concentrate on keeping the sights aligned on the target. If you see anything move as you pull the trigger you will know it would have been a miss if live firing. This is something you can do to get in hundreds of trigger pulls each day for free without going to a range. And when you do you're going to be better.
The only way to know what the gun, ANY GUN will do is to take the loose nut behind the trigger out of the picture as much as possible. Working up loads, or just finding the ammo your gun likes this is a must. Only after you are sure how the gun shoots can you work on yourself getting better. And don't worry if you start to think....something has to be wrong here with the gun or ammo....it happens, bench it again and make sure nothing got hit to knock it out of wack. Then start work on yourself again.
And shoot it like you think you are going to be shooting it....if you hunt with it, shoot it like you are going to be hunting with it, do you lean it against a tree, use sticks, take a knee, blind.....whatever...practice that.
Sav .250
Member
My answer to that is ………………….Practice makes perfect. Unless you are really as you say, "a bad shot." 
Shooting off hand, at any range, is a skill that has to be mastered all on it's own. It is far from easy as you have experienced. Like others have said, start from the bench.
Get a real target, like a zeroing target, that allows you to aim at a specific point rather than a white area in space. Work on sight picture, sight alignment and trigger press. Practice the fundamentals of a good shot. Slowly and repeatedly. I throw shots from the bench all the time. Being on the bench makes errors easier to diagnose, but if I'm not doing my part right then it's pointless.
If you are doing all that correct, make sure the rifle is hitting where you are aiming. Iron sights are a different animal. At 50ys your poi will most likely be higher than your poa. That's ok. Most rifles zero are zeroed at 100y. Drop the ramp on the rear leaf to bring your poi down to where you want it.
I love using iron sights. But it takes work and practice. So yeah, you might be a bad shot. But you can become a great shot, but it takes time and practice and the humility to be able to change and grow as a shooter. It's the easiest, and hardest, thing for a shooter to do...
Get a real target, like a zeroing target, that allows you to aim at a specific point rather than a white area in space. Work on sight picture, sight alignment and trigger press. Practice the fundamentals of a good shot. Slowly and repeatedly. I throw shots from the bench all the time. Being on the bench makes errors easier to diagnose, but if I'm not doing my part right then it's pointless.
If you are doing all that correct, make sure the rifle is hitting where you are aiming. Iron sights are a different animal. At 50ys your poi will most likely be higher than your poa. That's ok. Most rifles zero are zeroed at 100y. Drop the ramp on the rear leaf to bring your poi down to where you want it.
I love using iron sights. But it takes work and practice. So yeah, you might be a bad shot. But you can become a great shot, but it takes time and practice and the humility to be able to change and grow as a shooter. It's the easiest, and hardest, thing for a shooter to do...
Offhand is hard. So is shooting sitting with a sling and prone with a sling. These are primary reasons, in my opinion, that F Class has over taken Across the Course competition matches. It is a lot easier to shoot a rifle resting on the ground using bipods and sand bags than to have to hold the thing in place. Offhand is the most difficult of all and it was truly said XTC matches were won offhand 200 yards and lost at 600 yards.
I have scored shooters who shot 200's off hand at the National Matches, never had a camera to record the event. This target, fired in a 100 yard reduced NRA XTC match was particularly outstanding, with the high X count, and I had a camera to take a picture.
few people can shoot offhand this well, particularly with an iron sighted rifle. I never have.
WisBorn
Contributing Member
Buckhorn sights are a little harder to get use to. I like offhand shooting too many people shoot from the bench and don't practice real world. After checking the zero from a bench to adjust the sights to your ammo. Start offhand.
I like using a smaller target like a pop can after zeroing inthe rifle. I find to often that shooters tend to aim for the plate and not the small circle drawn on them. The buckhorn sights tend to make zeroing in on the dot a little more difficult.
I like using a smaller target like a pop can after zeroing inthe rifle. I find to often that shooters tend to aim for the plate and not the small circle drawn on them. The buckhorn sights tend to make zeroing in on the dot a little more difficult.
40-82
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First, let me compliment you on taking the trouble to learn exactly what you can and cannot do with your rifle offhand. A surprising number of shooters have carried rifles for years and have no clear picture of what they can or can't do. Thus, the number of escaping wounded game. You're way ahead.
The next thing you'll want to do is shoot at that same fifty yards from a solid rest. It's quite possible that factory adjustment of the sights isn't exactly dead center. It's something you can't assume until you test. In other words, you may be holding for more than you get.
As to the advice to get aperture sights, it's not wrong. I have an old Marlin 38 WCF that has both: the flip over Lyman open sights and a tang. With the tang, it's not hard to shoot a ragged hole at fifty yards, not offhand, though, that's always hard. With the little open sight, I can still get a tight group, but it requires more concentration, and I have to be on. For quick shots at mid-range, a wide open aperture is easier to acquire. Under ideal conditions with the right light and a defined target a man who understands an aperture can make an observer wonder why anyone ever bothered to mount a telescope.
Why then would anybody use open sights? For years I wondered if the open sight might not just be the mark of the greenhorn. Well, they are cheaper, and in some cases much more rugged. But there's this as well, sometimes with a rifle, especially a well-balanced lever, you'll find yourself shooting at close targets exploding from cover. When it's over, you won't remember looking at any sights. It's all instinctive. For this the open sight is better.
And accuracy? Once I managed a three-inch group with cast bullets at two-hundred yards using a Winchester 71 and factory open sights. Could I do it on demand in any light? No. But I want to make sure that you understand that open sights are capable of great accuracy.
You're learning. I've been shooting rifles regularly for over sixty years. When the rain breaks this afternoon, I'll be out there with a rifle for a few minutes, and I'll be learning too. I almost envy you starting out. Those early periods of first learning to shoot when the fresh knowledge comes fast are some of the best times you'll ever know.
Remember this too, some of the best feats of rifle craft have been accomplished with very simple equipment.
The next thing you'll want to do is shoot at that same fifty yards from a solid rest. It's quite possible that factory adjustment of the sights isn't exactly dead center. It's something you can't assume until you test. In other words, you may be holding for more than you get.
As to the advice to get aperture sights, it's not wrong. I have an old Marlin 38 WCF that has both: the flip over Lyman open sights and a tang. With the tang, it's not hard to shoot a ragged hole at fifty yards, not offhand, though, that's always hard. With the little open sight, I can still get a tight group, but it requires more concentration, and I have to be on. For quick shots at mid-range, a wide open aperture is easier to acquire. Under ideal conditions with the right light and a defined target a man who understands an aperture can make an observer wonder why anyone ever bothered to mount a telescope.
Why then would anybody use open sights? For years I wondered if the open sight might not just be the mark of the greenhorn. Well, they are cheaper, and in some cases much more rugged. But there's this as well, sometimes with a rifle, especially a well-balanced lever, you'll find yourself shooting at close targets exploding from cover. When it's over, you won't remember looking at any sights. It's all instinctive. For this the open sight is better.
And accuracy? Once I managed a three-inch group with cast bullets at two-hundred yards using a Winchester 71 and factory open sights. Could I do it on demand in any light? No. But I want to make sure that you understand that open sights are capable of great accuracy.
You're learning. I've been shooting rifles regularly for over sixty years. When the rain breaks this afternoon, I'll be out there with a rifle for a few minutes, and I'll be learning too. I almost envy you starting out. Those early periods of first learning to shoot when the fresh knowledge comes fast are some of the best times you'll ever know.
Remember this too, some of the best feats of rifle craft have been accomplished with very simple equipment.
someguy2800
Member
Yes you are, but we all start that way. Shooting, especially offhand, is a skill learned through practice. I suggest you buy yourself a 22 with iron sights. Start with a piece of paper with about a 6" circle at 20 yards or so. When you can hold 10:10 shots in the circle, move the next target to 25 yards and repeat. In no time you will be shooting much better much farther away. 80% of all shooting is trigger control and follow through.
General Geoff
Member
Lots of great advice in this thread. First and foremost must be repeated: Standing, off-hand shooting is really hard. The human body is not an ideal gun stabilization platform. Your torso, arms, wrists and hands all have muscles which must stay tensed in order to hold a rifle still. Tensed muscles get twitchy if they're not built and toned. The best you can do is control your breathing and learn to squeeze the trigger in time so that it breaks while your sights are lined up with the target. Some sway of your sight picture is inevitable when shooting off-hand.
entropy
Member
1. Is the gun zeroed, preferably from the bench? If not, even Slamfire might have a hard time, at least for the first couple shots til he figured out the Kentucky Windage.
2. As others have said, buckhorns aren't the most accurate sighting setup. that said, if this is to be one of your hog guns, buckhorns are adequate for that, and might be very handy when a pissed-off boar busts out of the mesquite at 10 yards. I'd leave them on and learn to shoot them for accuracy, or replace them with a Williams aperture sight, as Doc Rock suggests.
3. If the gun is zeroed, as Slamfire says, offhand is the hardest position to shoot from and requires the most practice. Some safe dry fire training might help. The dime drill is a good training tool; You'll need a helper; when you have the (unloaded) gun mounted, pointed out level, have them lay a dime on the top of the barrel. Remembering the breath control training you should have, try to gently pull the trigger without disturbing the dime. When you have this down, you have developed the skill that will keep you from pulling the round off your Point Of Aim when you fire.
4. Correct, consistent shouldering of the gun is also important in accuracy from any position, especially offhand. You should be putting the buttstock in the 'pocket'; This is the area about 2-3" in from the actual shoulder joint. The top of the buttstock should be even with the top of the shoulder, no higher. A little lower may be acceptable, depending on stock style. The pectoral muscle creates the protection that will keep you from getting the 'bad form' badge, a bruise on the shoulder joint from holding the stock too far out. Good, solid rearward pressure is essential for good offhand field shooting. (there are two major offhand positions. We are just concerned with the 'field' offhand position here.)
Take time to concentrate on the basics, even if you already 'know' them. When my shooting starts to go awry, in any discipline, I revert to the basics, and suddenly, I am back on track again.
Dave DeLaurant
Member
All of the above, plus how's your sight picture? Can you resolve the buckhorn rear with enough clarity for an accurate sight picture while focused on the front sight? My avatar photo at left shows the lengths I have to go in order to use open sights effectively with my aging eyesight.
Careful bench shooting in bright light is your starting place. The bench rest will help with keep the rifle steady, and bright light stops down your eye's iris, improving the clarity of your sight picture.
Shooting in the unsupported standing position is an emergency/competition shooting thing -- it's good to practice, but it's also good sense to use any available rest for a better shot in the field.
Careful bench shooting in bright light is your starting place. The bench rest will help with keep the rifle steady, and bright light stops down your eye's iris, improving the clarity of your sight picture.
Shooting in the unsupported standing position is an emergency/competition shooting thing -- it's good to practice, but it's also good sense to use any available rest for a better shot in the field.
Nature Boy
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We are all bad shots. Why else do we keep practicing?
illinoisburt
Member
Do you normally shoot standing unsupported? If not, it's an acquired skill that takes practice to learn. Regardless of sights, what you experienced may not be unusual for many shooters. Best thing you can do is verify the sights are correct from a bench, then practice a lot. Dry firing is good however you have no idea if you would have actually hit the target or not. Rather than enforcing back form and habits, invest $75 in yourself to become a good offhand shooter. Buy an inexpensive pump air gun (use low power at short range and add speed as you increase range), a 1 to 2 pound ankle weight, and a few thousand bb's. The gun will be lighter so put the ankle weight on your wrist to simulate the heft and build arm strength. Backstop is nothing more than a cardboard box with some paper in it with a small paper target pasted on the side. Start at 10 yards shooting daily at least 50 shots and back out 5 yards every week until you feel confident and happy with the results. Switching to the rifle will be natural and easy. Best part is you can do this safely and quietly indoors.
General Geoff
Member
Yep, Don't forget there is a lot of curation bias on the Internet. Folks usually only post about their very best target groups and range trips. Rarely do you see all the mediocre and poor groups that every shooter gets, typically more often than really good ones. Yes there are some folks who almost always have good groups. That's because as Jerry Miculek explains, they are the first ones on the range and the last to leave. It takes time, dedication and constant practice to keep up proficiency with off-hand rifle shooting at any sort of distance.
Varminterror
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Forgive me if my inference is inapt, but the OP’s question seems much more one of psychology than physiology.
Maybe it’s my particular affinity for the instruction method I have been taught, but this type of question is commonly answered poorly, because the respondents focus upon the wrong aspect.
The NRA instructor programs focus upon teaching our students the “Knowledge, Skills, and Attitude” necessary to successfully pursue their respective course content. In this case, an Internet forum response will almost always focus upon the knowledge, without the ability to convey skills, and seldom reflecting upon the attitude required. Knowing how something is done doesn’t mean you possess the skill to do it, and equally, such does not mean you possess the attitude to persevere through the learning curve to develop the skills.
To that end, I would offer that the defining characteristic of a person who is a “bad shot” is most succinctly stated as “someone who is not a good shot.” Extending, a “good shot” is a person who has achieved proficiency if not mastery of the fundamentals.
An aspect of the appropriate attitude is to how you approach Skill development. As a means of troubleshooting, you should use Knowledge to analyze what’s working and what isn’t, within the 6 Fundamentals of Rifle Shooting - and use that to create a plan to develop your Skills in the Fundamental you found lacking.
Grip
Aiming = sight picture & sight alignment
Breath Control
Hold Control = support, balance, consistency, and NPoA
Trigger Control
Follow Through
Firing offhand, with semi-buckhorn sights, the biggest challenges are Hold Control and Aiming. However, Trigger control dictates when the shot breaks, so if you aren’t holding well or aren’t aligned on target, the shot shouldn’t be breaking.
Breakdown your shooting skills in those 6 respective aspects and you’ll find the weak link(s). That’s how “bad shots” evolve into “good shots.”
Maybe it’s my particular affinity for the instruction method I have been taught, but this type of question is commonly answered poorly, because the respondents focus upon the wrong aspect.
The NRA instructor programs focus upon teaching our students the “Knowledge, Skills, and Attitude” necessary to successfully pursue their respective course content. In this case, an Internet forum response will almost always focus upon the knowledge, without the ability to convey skills, and seldom reflecting upon the attitude required. Knowing how something is done doesn’t mean you possess the skill to do it, and equally, such does not mean you possess the attitude to persevere through the learning curve to develop the skills.
To that end, I would offer that the defining characteristic of a person who is a “bad shot” is most succinctly stated as “someone who is not a good shot.” Extending, a “good shot” is a person who has achieved proficiency if not mastery of the fundamentals.
An aspect of the appropriate attitude is to how you approach Skill development. As a means of troubleshooting, you should use Knowledge to analyze what’s working and what isn’t, within the 6 Fundamentals of Rifle Shooting - and use that to create a plan to develop your Skills in the Fundamental you found lacking.
Grip
Aiming = sight picture & sight alignment
Breath Control
Hold Control = support, balance, consistency, and NPoA
Trigger Control
Follow Through
Firing offhand, with semi-buckhorn sights, the biggest challenges are Hold Control and Aiming. However, Trigger control dictates when the shot breaks, so if you aren’t holding well or aren’t aligned on target, the shot shouldn’t be breaking.
Breakdown your shooting skills in those 6 respective aspects and you’ll find the weak link(s). That’s how “bad shots” evolve into “good shots.”
Llama Bob
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You may be a bit of a bad shot. A paper plate at 50y is about 16 MOA depending on the plate, which is a reasonable standard for standing. I'd be unhappy with anything less than 100% hits myself BUT buckhorn rears suck for me, and that might sink it. Sight consistency is very hard with them. I use peep sights on all leverguns just varying the peep size depending on the need for speed vs. accuracy.
Varminterror's list of fundamentals is good and if you're not consistently following them then that could be the issue.
If you're not using a speed loop type sling (Rhodesian, ching, etc.) you might look into them.
Part of being a good shot is getting your equipment set up so you can succeed.
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