How do you feel about the prerequisites about obtaining a CCW permit

[ilbob]

There is no evidence to support the contention that armed citizens in states with training requirements are any less dangerous to others than those in states without such a requirement.

Its a very good idea to at least take a basic gun safety class when you buy a gun. It is also a very good idea to get some basic training on the laws of your state, and some of the mechanisms of how to carry, and how to use a firearm for SD before actually walking about armed. I am opposed to mandating such classes as they clearly infringe on a constitutionally protected right.

I do not consider the analogy to hunter safety classes to be completely on target (note clever pun ). The US constitution does not specifically protect the right to hunt. It specifically does protect the right to keep and bear arms.

 

[MICHAEL T]

People need to show some proficiency with a gun if they intend to carry in public. If they buy a gun with the intention to protect themselves they need to show that they aren't putting everyone else around them in danger by not being able to hit what they aim at. IMO far too many people carry and have no skills whatsoever with their firearm, they don't seek further training to improve their skills nor do they even practice like they should.

We already have people like that their called POLICE. Their hit to fired ratio is way worst than the CCW person.
All this jump thru hoops is just a way to make it harder and waste of time.
It does help make the sheep fell a little better. But I really don't care what sheep think.

 

[RKBABob]

Here in PA there is no training required. I wouldn't mind if they handed me a pamphlet describing the laws of my state... where I can and cannot carry... maybe throw the 4 rules in there, too.

Pose for a photo at the Sheriff's office, give the addresses of two character references in the same county, and fork over some cash. That's all, folks!

Once you have your CCW permit... well, nothing magical happens. You've managed to convince a sheriff's deputy that you are an honest citizen, and they've given you a little card that says so. You'll never need the card unless you're interacting with a police officer, and you hope the officer trusts the opinion of the county sheriff. Without that little card, the officer has nothing to base his opinion on, and will be suspicious of you untill you can prove yourself to be honest. Good luck with that on the side of the road at 2:30am.

Well, finding two people you don't mind knowing about the little metal thing stuck in your waistband can be tough. The fee could be a bite, too. But now you got a little card from the highest-ranking LEO in the county that says you're trustworthy!

Is it worth the hassle? Well, unless you live in rural Vermont, where everyone knows everyone else, the benefits still outweigh the hassle.

Plus its the law.. so I have no choice.

 

[CNYCacher]

My county is one of the counties that "require" a trainign course of some kind. The course cost $25, was offered through a local community college (but met at Bass Pro), lasted 3 hours and was classroom-only. There was no shooting involved. It covered the basics of how firearms work (very well I might add), and the laws surrounding the valid use of force in NYS.

Over all it was a great experience, one that I believe everyone should have before carrying.

I do not believe that they should be forced by the state to take the course though.

The instructor is a former LEO who is REALLY into guns. He owns 83 handguns. Interesting side-note. In NYS, your gun serial number and make and model are printed onto your CCW, there are only 10 spaces, so he actually has 9 CCW cards!

 

[Zundfolge]

On principal, I oppose training requirements (and permission from mama government in general) to exercise a basic human right ... but that said, the requirement here in Colorado isn't too burdensome and frankly I'm glad that some of the people that were in my CCW class were getting some sort of instruction.

Its kind of like seatbelts ... I think you're an idiot if you zoom around town without wearing yours, but I think we're all bigger idiots for allowing government to FORCE us to wear them.

 

[Mt Shooter]

All I needed was a hunter saftey card (dated 1968) called my Referances a background check and 4 weeks time.

 

[esq_stu]

To carry, a person should know what is illegal and what is illegal, what is safe and what is unsafe. A person should know that lethal force or drawing/displaying a weapon is only to be used under certain very limited circumstances and he or she should know what those circumstances are.

Same goes for driving.

If a person can learn it from a book and pass a test (written and hands on - like with a car), that's good enough.

How many hours does it take? However many it takes for the person not to be a danger to me or himself or herself - just like drivers' licenses.

Too many people learn about guns from the TV and movies. People that learn from the TV have some crazy notions of what is acceptable behavior. Training should dispel that.

I've never been asked by a person I'd trust to carry a firearm:

Am I carrying right now?
Have I ever shot anyone?
If someone takes my parking spot will I shoot them?
Is that gun loaded?
Does that revolver have a safety?
Is it ok to shoot out someone's tires?
Do I have a machine gun?
When I come over and ring the doorbell, please don't point your gun at me.
Can I shoot someone from my car if they're chasing me?
Do I go to dangerous places whenever I want, now that I am armed?
Can I come with you to someplace dangerous to protect you?
Will that gun go off?
Will that bullet go off?

Some of these questions are a matter of lack of courtesy, but some display a totally wrong idea of what guns are about. I don't want anyone that doesn't know when it's OK to display, draw or shoot or how to handle guns safely possessing guns anywhere near me.

 

[texas bulldog]

originally posted byRaijin:
Live fire exercises at a range? No. That's YOUR responsibility and I shouldn't have to pay higher taxes to fund someone else's handgun training.

um...you're not. people who wish to get licensed must pay to take a certified course. taxes haven't anything to do with it.

that said, i would agree that live-fire training shouldn't be included. but i think a very basic course covering the self-defense laws in your state is probably isn't a horrible idea.

edit: i should probably add that i don't really feel strongly about that, and i have no real issue with the states that have no training requirement. maybe just a handout on the self-defense laws mailed with the permit...

 

[Knotthead]

While I agree with the benefits of additional training, I don’t agree with mandating it. In my part of the world, finding any training beyond the state mandated concealed carry deadly weapon (CCDW) class is difficult, if available at all. As a matter of fact, I am not aware of any. While the CCDW class does a good job of covering the laws related to ownership and justified use, the gun handling part consists of just enough to keep a newbie from hurting themselves and others, along with a minimal proficiency test.

By the way, if anyone knows of any available training or publicly accessible ranges in Kentucky, please go to this thread and post them.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

The 2nd Amendment to the Constitution of the United States does not establish any prerequisites to carrying any "arms," not does it make any provision to require a permit or license in order to do so. ALL licenses and permits are unconstitutional infringements on the RKBA.

 

[kurtmax]

The 2nd Amendment to the Constitution of the United States does not establish any prerequisites to carrying any "arms," not does it make any provision to require a permit or license in order to do so. ALL licenses and permits are unconstitutional infringements on the RKBA.

QFT (Quoted for Truth.. not the other one )

I've run up against problems in my state. Here permits are 'may issue' but have some vague 'shall issue' additions added by various court cases. Basically, it's a complete mess. The local Sheriff has declined to issue me a permit due to my age (I meet the state requirements, but not his additional requirements). Actually, the department won't even give me the application forms to fill out, even if I eventually get declined. I'm having to see a lawyer about this as soon as I finish finals. But it's really, really annoying. Not something I should have to pay extra and waste time doing. (Or worry about when I studying...)

 

[MDMadrid]

Freedom always comes with a price. Every where you look there are rules and regulations (laws) are put in place to keep every thing in order. We, as a society, need those laws in place to keep the honest...honest and to punish those who are not. It is up to our society to make sure those who make the laws only limit us to what is necessary and not infringe us on said freedoms.

Can a Given Right come with a cost? Yes. Should it…yes. How much…we, as a society, decide!

 

[jqbagley]

You guys are driving me nuts! A CCW course does not make someone a master marksman, a firearms legal expert, rational when under fire, or a responsible gun owner. To become such requires initiative on your part. The government is only restricting our rights in the name of safety.

The reasoning for requiring a CCW course is the same as the reasoning in "may issue" states where an individual must demonstrate a need to obtain a CCW, like a restraining order or a time machine to prove you're going to be gunned down next week. It's an infringement of my right to bear arms.

 

[stevereno1]

I guess I understand it, but the constitution makes it clear that I should not have to haggle over the right to carry a gun. I do not want 13 year old kids carrying guns, nor violent criminals, nor psychopaths, or those who are mentally derranged, but i think that if you can get a carry permit in any state, it should be valid in the entire country and pourto rico. That would include D.C.. Cook county Il, Hawaii, and guam!

 

[stevereno1]

By the way, in Georgia, there is no mandate that requires a citizen to undergo "training" in order to get a ccw permit. Yet, there is a mandate that a person must complete a "hunter safety course" before being able to get a hunting liscense.

 

[Andrew Rothman]

nwilliams, you do know that in your home state of Arizona, no training or licensing is required for an adult to open carry a pistol, right?

Has this caused big problem? A small problem? No problem at all?

nwilliams
Senior Member
Join Date: 12-10-06
Location: Prescott, AZ
Posts: 1,189

People need to be trained in gun laws and gun handling if they intend to carry in public.

<...>

They need to understand the laws regarding the right to carry in their given State and what it means to use deadly force to protect themselves or others.

People need to show some proficiency with a gun if they intend to carry in public.

Many people in this thread have suggested that there is a practical test of rights: that if a right is perceived to cause social harm, it must be curtailed.

Well, I cry foul.

As a matter of statistics, there is no statistically significant difference in gun-carrier misbehavior between states like mine, with a training requirement, states like PA, with no training requirement, and states like AK and VT, with no permit requirement at all.

But EVEN IF THERE WERE, I'd say, "tough luck." Freedom is not risk-free, and if the cost of a little perceived safety is the infringement of human rights, I don't want it.

I'm a carry permit instructor, certified by multiple states and the NRA. I make a little money from teaching carry classes, and I believe in training for anyone who carries or shoots a gun, but I don't agree that it should be required to exercise a Constitutional right.

 

[Soybomb]

Ohio's CCW went into effect in 2004. In 2004, Ohio had half the accidental firearm-related death rate that Vermont did.

Could you link me to the data set your citing? Are they permit holders only or is it all people that had firearms accidents? Are the numbers per capita? How much did ohio's rate drop from 2003 to 2004? If the ccw training is to credit we should see a significant drop when it came into play.

 

[Winchester 73]

Thank you for your many responses

I'd often wondered about how a large group of knowledgeable gun owners,whether licensed to carry or not,felt about this issue.
The definitive opinions expressed so far through post #67 are very interesting.
22 posters feel some sort of training should be mandatory to CCW.
24 feel that no training should be required.
Almost an even split.
The large majority of the 39 shall issue states at this time are requiring at least some form of mandatory training.
Aside from Alaska and Vermont which require not even a permit,PA and NH are among the few states with no training needed. The NH permit does not even require a photo ID,much less fingerprints,etc.
It's all quite remarkable ,the 50 different approaches to our gun rights.
Again,thank you all for taking the time to respond and express your views.

 

[JoseM]

I'm fine for a class to CCW. I'm not fine for a person to purchase a gun or to Open Carry (which is legal in NC). I feel this way because everyone has the right to protection (hence owning the gun), but the CCW is the way to go and I think this would push people to educate themselves and show a minimal proficiency if this was the case.

While training is something you "should" do on your own, without a requirement I don't feel a majority would seek it.

 

[Foosinho]

The 2nd Amendment to the Constitution of the United States does not establish any prerequisites to carrying any "arms," not does it make any provision to require a permit or license in order to do so. ALL licenses and permits are unconstitutional infringements on the RKBA.

So.... you disagree with preventing paroled felons from legally purchasing guns?

BTW, you're wrong - this is decided law. United States v. Miller. The Supreme Court has interpreted the 2nd Amendment as allowing some regulation of gun ownership (the oft ignored first half of the Amendment).

Could you link me to the data set your citing? Are they permit holders only or is it all people that had firearms accidents? Are the numbers per capita? How much did ohio's rate drop from 2003 to 2004? If the ccw training is to credit we should see a significant drop when it came into play.

It's from the CDC. And like I said before, the data available is largely incomplete if you want to conduct a statistical analysis. But since you asked... the accidental gun death rate in Ohio dropped about 5% from 2003 to 2004. But like I said before, I don't have enough data to be able to say if that was significant or not, or if it's related to the CCW requirements. It is what it is.

 

[starshooter231]

ROB87
"I'm taking a firearms safety course next year, and I'm looking forward to it. I look forward to learning how to be safe with firearms, and not shoot myself or another person accidentally."
Have you not seen the video of the DEA Agent that shot himself in the foot while talking about gun safety? I would hope he has taken atleast 1 class on firearms safety.

 

[starshooter231]

nwilliams"Carrying a gun is like driving a car, people have a right to do it, but they also need to know how to operate that device safely and know the laws that govern that responsibility."

I had to reread the constitution but still could not find the right to drive a car in there. Could you point it out for me? Just kidding. And I do agree with you.
starshooter231

 

[chadwickms]

Mississippi, my state, is Shall Issue, and does not require training to get a CHL. I did go over to Louisiana, about an hour away, to take their CHL class for good measure.

 

[Rumble]

Life is compromise

This is true, and it depends on what compromise you wish to make. Right now, in many places, the compromise is that individuals accept the need to take training in order to exercise a right. This is the way it is now, and since it's at least a step in the right direction (at least vs. the days of "no carrying period"), then it seems a useful compromise.

However, in my ideal situation, the compromise is "no restrictions, and accept the fact that idiots exist and might wave guns around." It's sort of like the way I look at the potential for terrorism: I'd rather have my liberties, and accept that it might mean some idiot blows me up.

 

[ScottE]

Training?

When I received my motorcycle license, I had to navigate a fairly tight course in a parking lot and show that my bike was safe for the road, and pass a written test. To get my drivers license, I had to drive a state employee around and show that I could keep my hands at 6 and 9, and be able to read stop signs, and pass a written test. Over the years since getting my drivers/motorcycle licenses, I have spent many hours training with professionals to sharpen my driving/riding skills without spening much money.

To get my CCW, all I had to do was sit in a classroom for 4 hours with a "certified firearms instructor", and talk about what ever the instructor wanted to talk about (mostly himself). No shooting, no written test, no nothing.

I don't disagree with the guidelines for being issued a CCW, but I wish training were more readily available. I have asked several of my friends who are gun guys, and no one has had any reasonable recommendations for places I can receive additional firearms training. 95% of my firearms experience has been standing alone in a stall at a gun range shooting at paper targets. It helps, but would be similar to driving a car in a straight line in an empty parking lot. Helpful, but after the first couple times, not much is to be gained. I think I will start another thread about how to get inexpensive firearms training besides playing video games and watching TV shows.

Scott