How fast are your repeat hits?

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Gunzee, there are a number of cowboy shooters who can draw at the beep, dump five in that target, holster, draw a second pistol and dump five. The best can do this just under three seconds. Be aware that they are cocking the pistol for each shot and the time includes reaction time, reholstering and another draw.
I would like to see video of a shooter that can start with their hand off the weapon, then draw fire, holster, draw another pistol, fire and holster in 3 seconds. I don't believe it's possible for 99% of the shooters. Bill Oglesby or Bob Munden, maybe.

Now, drawing a single pistol and firing 5 rounds and reholstering I believe.
 
I'm not a competition shooter and practice only for defensive purposes.

This statement ignores the fact that defending your life is the ultimate competition.
 
This statement ignores the fact that defending your life is the ultimate competition.
No it doesn't.

In competition missing the target while playing a game isn't going to get you killed.

Missing a target firing wildly because you like to see how fast you can pull the trigger will.

A slow hit is better than a fast miss in a fight for ones life.
 
I can empty my gun very quickly (less than 2 seconds) and hit the target with all shots at 15 feet. However, I don't consider this a big deal. Its not something I brag about.
 
In competition missing the target while playing a game isn't going to get you killed.

Missing a target firing wildly because you like to see how fast you can pull the trigger will.

A slow hit is better than a fast miss in a fight for ones life.


You totally miss the point. You mistakenly think the word "competition" can only mean "playing a game" such as a pistol match.

Webster's defines competition as "a contest between rivals." No mention of pistol matches.....

Typically, the worst that can happen in a pistol match is that you lose or get dq'd.

The worst thing that can happen in a gunfight is that you DIE.

Which has the higher stakes? You are trying to kill/stop him before he kills you. Talk about a "competition," or "contest between rivals."

You don't win matches by missing and neither do you win many gunfights by missing. You do win them by hitting faster than the other guy.

No one is advocating "firing wildly" and missing the intended target, so that's silly to put forth as an argument.

A fast hit beats the hell out of a slow hit.
 
David, you obviously like to argue. You took a snippet of my post and made an argument out of it, to what end I'm uncertain.

Watch my videos. If you think I'm moving so slowly that I'm likely to lose a fight to a street thug, please point it out. If you have video of you shooting more quickly or more accurately than I am, please post the link along with some pointers.
 
David, you obviously like to argue. You took a snippet of my post and made an argument out of it, to what end I'm uncertain.

I am merely pointing out that shooting for your life is a very competitive activity. HE'S trying to kill you, YOU are trying to kill him. Don't you think that's the "ultimate competition" as I said?

So when I see a statement that says "I don't shoot for competition, only for defensive purposes," I feel compelled to point that out.

Since you ask for pointers, your first shot looks rather slow. What's your average time for your first shot?

Since you "practice only for defensive purposes," why don't you have a concealment garment on for the entire two videos? Or do you exercise open carry in your state?

Your skill level looks good, perhaps an "above average" rating, which should carry you through most confrontations, once you get your gun out.

I am relatively new to posting to Youtube, so I don't have anything of me posted yet, but here's one that you can compare yourself to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qU3jceN4JAc
 
Your skill level looks good, perhaps an "above average" rating, which should carry you through most confrontations, once you get your gun out.
Watch my second video starting at :50. I'm drawing from a holster and engaging 3 targets with three rounds at 10 yards each. The video you posted appears to be tampered with (speed) so it's hard to get an idea of what's really happening and how fast (it looks great though), but the shot times don't seem to be much different than mine (going from holster to first shot) and I complete the engagement of 3 targets in 1:68 seconds from the beep.

Yes, I do open carry quite often as it's legal in my state.

Since you're not DavidS, I don't count the video as evidence of your superior skill with a handgun.
 
Have you heard of the Rule of 3?

Most gunfights occur: 1) 3 seconds or less; 2) 3 shots or less; 3) within 3 yards or less.
 
Having access to a range timer ... and using pre-arranged, known designated threat targets set up at a range, where you know you're going to be shooting ... can remove some of the awareness, identification, decision & reaction aspects in this sort of subject.

I've listened to all sorts of opinions over the years regarding how fast is "fast enough" when performing reaction drills, meaning both reactions to an identified perceived threat, from the holster, to measuring the split times between subsequent shots. Each person espousing one or another opinion had reasons and justifications for their opinions and ideas. Fair enough, as far as that goes.

But, when it comes right down to it, how fast is fast enough? Might as well try to ask yourself how fast is fast enough when it involves accurately landing multiple hand strikes. I don't claim to have the definitive, all-inclusive answer to that one, either (and I've got 39 years experience in the martial arts).

There was a period when I wore a timer on my person every time I stepped out on the firing range.

Over the years I found I could achieve consistent accurate hits on threat targets at reasonable defensive drill ranges with split times averaging in the .01-.015 range, occasionally longer (of course) and that was often involving deliberate shot strings from 3-15 rounds. Stationary ... moving ... from cover ... 1 handed ... 2-handed, etc. But I knew what I was about to do.

There was one time we set up 3 threat targets at 3-4 yards, spaced a yard apart, one farther than the other 2, and checked ourselves on the total time it took to draw and fire accurate doubles on each of the 3 targets (inside the smallest of the 'scoring zones'). I was using a leather plainclothes holster which had a thumb-snap retention strap. My average times hovered in the 2.3 - 2.4 sec range for all accurate hits over the course of several repetitions. That was my "stride", it seems ... for that day. One of the other instructors working the drill with me was consistently within hundredths of a second of my times, achieving just as accurate of hits, and he was using an open-top belt holster.

A while back this year I ran a 'cold' 3yd reaction drill with a J-frame, and made 5 hits in less than approx 3 seconds, shooting 1-handed, from the hip, with 4 of the hits touching each other in a group and the 5th barely missing being in the 4-shot overlapping group, over the heart/spine of an anatomical threat target.

Now, how does any of that translate into what I might expect to occur off the controlled range environment in an actual shooting situation? Dunno. Don't claim to know, either.

I've listened to a respectable number of cops who have been involved in shootings, and have had access to reviewing a fair number of them over the course of my career. I haven't arrived at any definitive answers other than accurate aimed fire is often more effective than reactive, "instinctive" fire when bullets are flying in both directions.

I do continue to practice as much as my time and activities permit, even though I'm retired. I still keep my hand in things as a firearms instructor & armorer, but I'm not shooting as much as before I retired.

In the real world there are so many potential distractions and conditions which can occupy our awareness and attention. Identification of threats and proper decision-making can suffer at times. Developing and maintaining our individual skillsets - and remaining conscious of the importance of awareness, experience and mindset - is one of those areas of overlapping concern that must be considered and addressed by each of us.

I can't pretend to have the answers for myself, let alone anyone else.

I just keep working on those things that I can work on ...
 
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Watch my second video starting at :50. I'm drawing from a holster and engaging 3 targets with three rounds at 10 yards each.

The plates are not in view, so we have no idea where they really are, or that they're really plates. For all we know, they are manhole covers set at 5 yds. Your draw isn't clean, efficient or fast, so you're wasting a lot of time on that first shot. There are other areas that need attention, such as your reloading, but usually people pay me to diagnose their shooting problems.

The video you posted appears to be tampered with (speed)

It's not, he really is that fast. He's won National and World titles, so there's no need for him to tamper with anything.

but the shot times don't seem to be much different than mine (going from holster to first shot) and I complete the engagement of 3 targets in 1:68 seconds from the beep.

Are you serious?

Since you're not DavidS, I don't count the video as evidence of your superior skill with a handgun.

No, I'm David E. I didn't post it as evidence of my superior skill, only as a guide as to what "good" really looks like.

I am glad you're out there practicing and running drills. I'm also delighted that you're using a shot timer, as that helps identify your strong and weak areas, along with helping your monitor your progress. Kudos to you!

From your posted videos, I'd rate your skill level as that of a mid to high "C" class shooter in USPSA, which is to say, it's above average.
 
Say, on a 10" vitals-circle, at 10 ft, with full charge ammo, using your ccw gun? I recommend that you not use anything with which you can't beat .25 second, because any punk with a .22lr autoloader can do that well. There could easily be more than one of them firing at you, too. Most shots in combat miss the target entirely, and most hits are poor ones. Repeat hit speed is vital, and many types of guns and loads make it very hard to attain. For instance, airwt .38 snubs, 357 snubs, .44 Special snubs (alloy frames) .40 cal pocket autos.


Gunkid, did they let you out of prison early?

Yep gang.. they did let John Davis out. At least it looks like gunkid is on the loose as of 10/26/2010.

How's life Melvin?

Deaf
 
Sturngewehr, click on the address, scroll down to "Pistol". Click on 1st place Deuce Stevens (alias). Enjoy. Look at the other world records. Remember, he is cocking the single action each time. These young'ns have the dexterity combined with hand and eye co-ordination. And lots of practice.
Deuce is a fine young man too. Awaiting your reply.



http://www.spencerhoglund.com/worldrecords.html
 
Hello friends and neighbors // Personally, shooting two to the chest and one to the head on three different targets, 15'-20', my return shots are:

Slow with my DW, 15-2 ,2" ,.357s ,

Fast with my S&W 442 and 642, 1 7/8", .38 and

Twice as fast with my CZ75B .40 (holds 13 so no reload needed )

The weight of the CZ also helps in quicker return shots, allowing for a more true double tap.

Basically it all depends on the recoil.

Not only does your opponent tend to be moving, you need to be moving too.
I recommend practicing shooting while moving.

It can be humbling at first but it is great to know your limitations. I started with BB guns, I suppose nowadays you could start with Airsoft guns.
 
Look at the other world records. Remember, he is cocking the single action each time.

As I said previously, fine gunhandling to be sure.

BUT, load the guns with full power loads, make the up-close steel target a tad smaller than the state of Texas and begin from a realistic start position, then things change rapidly.
 
Sturngewehr, click on the address, scroll down to "Pistol". Click on 1st place Deuce Stevens (alias). Enjoy. Look at the other world records. Remember, he is cocking the single action each time. These young'ns have the dexterity combined with hand and eye co-ordination. And lots of practice.
Deuce is a fine young man too. Awaiting your reply.
I stand corrected, and WOW.

Edited: I still stand behind my statement that 99% of the shooters out there can't achieve that kind of speed.
 
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First off if this guy is "gunkid" who cares as long as he obeys forum rules.

Back to subject. Speed is important so is hitting what you are shooting at.

First work on the basics then speed&shooting with movement thrown in.

Also drawing while grappling and against armed opponents. While in the past force on force was limited to expensive and somewhat restricted guns unless you used ungainly paintball gear.

Today there are some decent airsoft copies of pistols realistic enough to carry and draw from most real concealment holsters or tucked into a belt.

Don't expect to find what I'm talking about at you local Wally-Mart I'm talking about high end not plastic junk. While they do not represent true recoil or ballistics they do have similar weight and feel to work on your reflexs/motor skills.
But should never be a substitute for actual range practice with real firearms and full power ammo; only as an addition to your training.
 
The real answer to "how fast are your repeat hits" for most people is, "I don't know." Or, often, "I don't know, but they're pretty dang fast!" Or, "As fast as I need them to be," or some other macho response.

Of course, as soon as a time frame is mentioned, lots of folks respond with, "I've never seen a timer at a gunfight," or "You can go fast if you want to, but I'd rather hit." (I'd rather hit fast!)

Personally, I think it's a good idea to know basic things such as how fast is your first shot on target, from concealed, unconcealed and hand-on-gun starts, among other things.

It's foolish to rely on speed alone to carry you through an encounter, but it's more foolish to dismiss it as totally unnecessary.
 
DavidE, unfortunately, that is the response you hear from time to time. Tell you what, forget the targets. Let me see you just shoot that fast.


Heard someone say one time in a movie:"Oh sure, give me a rifle like that and I ............................................

Do you know Demon613?
 
DavidE, unfortunately, that is the response you hear from time to time. Tell you what, forget the targets. Let me see you just shoot that fast.

I had considered taking up CAS last year, since my wife had expressed some interest. We went to a match and had fun. I was lent a $1500 lever action rifle that was really nice. The reigning state champion told me I had "serious potential." I was told that I fired my .44 magnum Trapper pretty well, "especially with those heavy loads." (they were 240's @ 900 fps) At home, I discussed the matter with my wife and showed her a holster rig I'd found online for "only" $400, even tho I acknowledged the $500 rig would be better for her. I looked at my AR's and not one of them cost $1500. In fact, two of them together didn't cost $1300 total. It dawned on me that all this "fun" was with guns and rigs I could only shoot at a CAS match firing ammo that barely chips the paint off the steel targets. (I think that's why they don't use many paper targets at a CAS match...does the bullet have to fully penetrate the target to score, or do the ones that bounce off the paper count, too?) Add to that, learning and perfecting the techniques that only apply when shooting poofer loads that seem less powerful than a .22 short didn't seem like a practical use of my time.

Yet, despite all that, CAS appeals to me...

I never said that I am a world record holder, as Duece Stevens apparently is. I only stated that it was unquestionably fine gunhandling, but that it wouldn't hold up using full power factory ammo. Or do you disagree with that statement?

Could I shoot those guns that fast? No, but apparently, no one else can either, since it is a world record...

My primary interest in shooting is based in practicality, so I don't practice "speed reholstering" at all.

Do you know Demon613?

I have no idea who that is or why you'd even ask.
 
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