How gun registrations might "follow" you

[zminer]

I don't know if anyone has been following this, but there was a mentally ill guy who allegedly made a threat on Obama's life at a bank, and then went on the run. Anyway, they caught him, but it's been big news here because he lives in a nearby suburb. One interesting bit of the hubbub is that news stories have repeatedly reported that he owns eight guns:

Police said Murray has eight firearms registered in his name, from semi-automatic pistols to revolvers, some capable of carrying 15 rounds of ammunition.

I just assumed that they knew this because in order to own a handgun in NY you need a pistol license with the serial numbers of the firearms listed on the document. However, today the news says this:

"She said the eight registered weapons in Daniel Murray's name were bought when he worked for an armored transport company in California, but were all sold or given away upon moving to the Capital Region many years ago."

So, it sounds like someone somewhere was able to run a search on this guy's name and former addresses, and was able to come up with guns that used to be registered to him in California. I guess California must be maintaining a database of firearms which people who no longer live in that state may or may not still own - a database, therefore, which potentially becomes less useful every day as people sell and buy firearms elsewhere.

Since New York also has registration for handguns, a scenario occurred to me. Let's say that I leave New York for a state where I don't need to register my firearms - say, Vermont. Once I get there, let's say that I sell a gun, which later gets stolen, and then someone uses it in a crime. If the cops retrieve the gun, run the serial number, and the only registered owner is me (from when I used to live in NY), do I get a warrant out for my name? I guess that's one argument for getting a bill of sale for any gun that you sell.

 

[deadin]

do I get a warrant out for my name?

Probably not. But you will be talked to and will need to show that you were nowhere near where and when the crime occurred.
This is exactly the scenario that makes me not sell a gun without notating the buyers name and contact information. (i.e.Drivers License. etc.) If they don't want to ID themselves, they don't get the gun.

 

[KarenTOC]

I've never sold a gun, but I think I'd like some proof of sale for just such a reason as you mention. I've found some bills-of-sale on line:

http://home.comcast.net/~str8shooter44/images/billofsale.pdf

http://xavierthoughts.blogspot.com/2005/11/firearms-bill-of-sale.html

http://www.freebillofsaleform.org/freebillofsaleform/Gun-bill-of-sale.rtf

 

[kingpin008]

So, it sounds like someone somewhere was able to run a search on this guy's name and former addresses, and was able to come up with guns that used to be registered to him in California

Or, they talked to friends or family of the guy during the investigation and were told by them what the man owned.

 

[Hickwithstick]

Use a FFL

Our FFL does a background check on the buyer and records the sale for private sellers for $25. Good peace of mind and no worries of losing a bill of sale a few years down the road

 

[hinton03]

You are kidding yourself if you don't think any gun you buy from a FFL can't be traced back to you.

I had a friend that bough a pistol in Alabama in 1984, Alabama has no registration requirements. In 1989 he sold the gun to a co-worker in Alaska who later had the gun stolen out of her car, in 1995 he received a call from the Philadelphia Police Department because the pistol was used in an officer involved shooting.

It is as simple as tracking the SN from the factory to the dealer, the dealer maintains records of who he sold the gun to as an FFL requirement.

As far as State registration requirements go I am sure the information is shared among law enforcement agencies. I read where one state is actually making CCW permit holders public information.

 

[danprkr]

I have never tracked any information on a gun I've sold. As far as I'm concerned it's up to them to prove that I still have it. If it's gone they won't be able to do so. Besides, IT'S NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS WHAT I DO WITH MY PRIVATE PROPERTY!

Don't get me wrong I won't pop an attitude, but I've bought and sold so many guns legally that it will be true when I say, "I sold that years ago. To whom I don't recall. Not even sure I knew more than the guys first name, but that's been so long ago that I certainly can't remember it now. Have a nice day officer."

 

[NukemJim]

I have never tracked any information on a gun I've sold. As far as I'm concerned it's up to them to prove that I still have it. If it's gone they won't be able to do so. Besides, IT'S NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS WHAT I DO WITH MY PRIVATE PROPERTY

That can depend on what state you live in.

In some states you must make and keep a bill of sale for 10 years(Illinois for sure). If you cannot produce the gun or the bill of sale for said gun you are in trouble.

Your state may vary.

NukemJim

 

[Rockwell1]

Probably not. But you will be talked to and will need to show that you were nowhere near where and when the crime occurred.

Read my sig line

 

[Speedo66]

When I sell a gun, or a vehicle for that matter, I make out a bill of sale, with the TIME on it in addition to other relevant info, and have the buyer sign it, and keep a copy for myself.

Someone buys your car, pulls out of your driveway, has an accident, says I was only on a test ride, you are responsible unless you have proof otherwise.

Same for a gun, it is yours unless you have proof otherwise.

Always insist on a signed, dated, and timed bill of sale.

 

[loneviking]

FYI, California has had handgun registration since 1990, so that's probably how they found him. New guns are easily traced as you go from the manufacturer to the dealer to the first sale. I had a Walther P38 that came back to haunt me. I was the first buyer after the gun was imported, sold it on but kept a record of the sale. About two years later I get a call from a detective wanting to know if the gun had been stolen or sold as it was being held in evidence as a murder weapon! I told them who I had sold the gun too and didn't hear anything more...

 

[searcher451]

Great links, KarenTOC. Thanks for finding and posting/sharing them.

 

[Kragax]

Id like to more of the details on this threat. Was Obama in the bank? Why did he go on the run? I hear threats about him all the time.

 

[Mike128]

I keep hearing it on the news and than the emphasis on the fact he owned guns. I personally think that it's just prepping the public for the need to instate another ban.

My real question is, How real was the threat? Was he just another person pissed off at Obama or was he serious about it? Why did he withdraw the money?

 

[sjohn26]

And still the Anti-slant..............

"....has eight firearms registered in his name, from semi-automatic pistols to revolvers, some capable of carrying 15 rounds of ammunition."


Notice the veiled "hi-capacity" reference...........................

 

[Yo Mama]

It was a wierd story. Did they ever get the guy?

 

[zminer]

Yes, they did catch the guy.

The more I read about it, the more it sounds like the guy is just mentally ill. Now, I believe that the Secret Service should take every threat seriously until they're pretty damn sure it isn't serious, but it sounds like this is just some crazy guy who needs medication/treatment for a mental illness (I am not being flip - this is what his family has said all along that the problem is):

http://www.timesunion.com/ASPStories/storyprint.asp?StoryID=807770

Feds arrest Obama threat suspect
Mother of former Rexford man hopes he can now receive proper treatment

By HUMBERTO MARTÍNEZ, Staff writer
First published: Sunday, June 7, 2009

CLIFTON PARK -- Family members of the former Rexford man arrested Friday after he was accused of making death threats against President Barack Obama say they hope their son will finally get help.

Daniel James Murray, 36, was arrested outside a Nevada casino at 7 p.m. His mother, Barbara Murray of Clifton Park said she and the rest of Daniel's family are happy they have apprehended her son who is mentally ill and has been refusing treatment.

"For years we've been wanting him to get help," Barbara Murray said. "If a person has mental illness and doesn't want help, they don't want to take the treatment."

Murray was charged with making the threats by the Secret Service on Thursday after making bizarre statements while opening and closing an $85,000 savings account last month.

At Zion First National Bank in Utah on May 19, Murray asked if the bank was solvent and predicted chaos if citizens were to lose their money, according to court documents. Murray returned eight days later to withdraw just over $12,000, but failed to provide proper identification, tellers told the Secret Service. He then allegedly threatened if he didn't receive the money, someone would die, so the bank manager intervened and had tellers give him the money in bills smaller than $50.

It was then, according to the U.S. Secret Service, that tellers said he gave a disjointed rambling as they counted the money, mentioning his recent travels and the line that drew federal officials' attention: "We are on a mission to kill the president of the United States."

The next day, he returned to withdraw the remaining $72,000 and closed the account.

In Washington, Secret Service spokesman Malcolm Wiley told the Associated Press Murray offered no resistance when arrested Friday night in the parking lot of the Riverside Hotel and Casino in Laughlin, Nev. Wiley didn't give any other details. Murray is expected to be in court in Nevada on Monday.

Former neighbors of Murray told the Times Union Friday before his arrest that they often referred to him as Cape Man because he would stroll around Blue Jay Way wearing a cape, talking to himself and gesturing wildly. The outside of his home was decorated with religious figures and a glowing cross in the backyard, and he drove a car with the license plate ACHOSEN1.

Barbara Murray said her family has spent years pleading in vain with Saratoga County health officials, police and the court system to get their son treatment for a mental illness that started when he received an injury about 10 years ago.

"The way our system is set up, it gives all the authority and choice to someone who is least able to make the proper decisions and act in their best interest," Murray said. "(They) fall by the wayside on a continuing downward spiral of deteriorating health, isolation and financial hardship with no ability to help themselves."

Murray said reports by the media have inaccurately portrayed her son as a gun-loving villain, far from the description she gave of her son as a sweet-hearted person highly involved and loved at his church.

She said the eight registered weapons in Daniel Murray's name were bought when he worked for an armored transport company in California, but were all sold or given away upon moving to the Capital Region many years ago. A call to police that he made about a bomb which is on his record was an act of desperation and need for attention, she said.

"He was scared and thought someone was chasing him," Murray said. "He thought 'Would they come if I said I had a bomb?'" Murray said.

She said the laws in place to protect a patient's civil rights laws prevent family members of mentally ill from helping their loved ones and hopes the national attention drawn to her son brings the issue to lawmakers.

"It is so frustrating and heartbreaking for a family to try so hard to help a loved one and be told there is nothing they can do," Murray said. "No one can even talk to you if the person with the mental illness doesn't agree to give you permission, which so many times they won't due to their illness and their fears and paranoia."

She gave as an example an incident where Murray's illness landed him at a hospital and his wife was unable to find out his location, health status, or treatment because of laws.

New York in 1999 passed legislation commonly known as "Kendra's Law" that allows families to petition a court with a physician to force treatment on patients who might be a danger to themselves or their communities. Barbara Murray said most of her son's issues before this incident were not serious enough to invoke the court order, despite pleas to physicians and lawyers.

"We love our son dearly, he needs help," Barbara Murray said. "But he says he doesn't need help, that's what they say when they're sick."

Tim O'Brien and the Associated Press contributed to this story.

 

[ReadyRob]

Quote

As far as State registration requirements go I am sure the information is shared among law enforcement agencies.

I have been told by LEO's, gun and personal defense instructors and a FFL dealer that in Colorado the counties are not linked together and if you buy a gun in say Denver county it won't be know in Mesa county.

That is so primitive its hard for me to believe its true.

 

[Dravur]

"We love our son dearly, he needs help," Barbara Murray said. "But he says he doesn't need help, that's what they say when they're sick."

That is one of the silliest things ive seen since Obama last spoke.

 

[waterhouse]

You are kidding yourself if you don't think any gun you buy from a FFL can't be traced back to you.

It is as simple as tracking the SN from the factory to the dealer, the dealer maintains records of who he sold the gun to as an FFL requirement.

It is only that simple for new guns. It is fairly simple to trace a gun from the manufacturer to the first person that buys it and fills out a 4473. I don't know the numbers, but after that I'm guessing trace data goes towards extremely difficult/impossible.